ECT WHY DISPENSATIONALISM SHINES !!

[DAN P]

Hi to all and in 1 Cor 2:7 reads , as the Holy Spirit gave to Paul to WRITE !!

But we speak's God's WISDOM by means of ( THE ) MYSTERY , the one Having been Kept Secret , which God Foreordained BEFORE the AGES for our Glory !and that is why I never get DISCOURAGED !!

#1 , The first verb is WE SPEAK which is in the PRESENT TENSE , and this is spoken to those under the Dispensation of the Grace of God !

It is also in the ACTIVE VOICE which means it the subject , God that has caused this action and also in the Indicative Mood a fact as written .

#2 , The second verb is in the Greek PERFECT TENSE and means that means this was the Revelation of the MYSTERY given to Paul as found in Rom 16:25 and 26 and in Col 1:25 and 26 .

And this DISPENSATION will CONTINUE until we are taken to heaven , that is the PRESENT TENSE !!


#3 , The third verb is the word ORDAINED which means it is ordained BEFORE the AGES began !!


#4 , This then means IF anyone wants to know the WISDOM of God , all need to know and SEE what the Revelation of the MYSTERY MEANS !!

#5 , This means that Paul was the ONLY ONE to teach the MYSTERY as we were CHOSEN in Him before the FONDATION of Age world was created as referenced in 2 Tim 1:9 !!

This means that the MYSTERY IS ONLY IN Paul's writing and Not found in PENTECOST , or in Tongues or in WATER BAPTISM or to the New Covenant !!

dan p

 

[patrick jane]

Hi to all and in 1 Cor 2:7 reads , as the Holy Spirit gave to Paul to WRITE !!

But we speak's God's WISDOM by means of ( THE ) MYSTERY , the one Having been Kept Secret , which God Foreordained BEFORE the AGES for our Glory !and that is why I never get DISCOURAGED !!

#1 , The first verb is WE SPEAK which is in the PRESENT TENSE , and this is spoken to those under the Dispensation of the Grace of God !

It is also in the ACTIVE VOICE which means it the subject , God that has caused this action and also in the Indicative Mood a fact as written .

#2 , The second verb is in the Greek PERFECT TENSE and means that means this was the Revelation of the MYSTERY given to Paul as found in Rom 16:25 and 26 and in Col 1:25 and 26 .

And this DISPENSATION will CONTINUE until we are take to heaven , that is the PRESENT TENSE !!


#3 , The third verb is the word ORDAINED which means it is ordained BEFORE the AGES began !!


#4 , This then means IF anyone wants to know the WISDOM of God , all need to know and SEE what the Revelation of the MYSTERY MEANS !!

#5 , This means that Paul was the ONLY ONE to teach the MYSTERY as we were CHOSEN in Him before the FONDATION of Age world was created as referenced in 2 Tim 1:9 !!

This means that the MYSTERY IS ONLY IN Paul's writing and Not found in PENTECOST , or in Tongues or in WATER BAPTISM or to the New Covenant !!

dan p

Excellent post Dan !!! :thumb:

 

[DAN P]

Excellent post Dan !!! :thumb:

Hi and thank you !!

dan p

 

[northwye]

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:" I Corinthians 2: 7

"And this DISPENSATION will CONTINUE until we are take to heaven , that is the PRESENT TENSE !!"

"That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:" I Corinthians 2: 5-6

He goes on to say in I Corinthians 2: 12-14 that "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

The hidden wisdom which Paul is talking about is the revelation to him of a spiritual understanding which was not fully revealed in the Old Testament and under the Old Covenant. To say that this spiritual understanding involves a set of doctrines called dispensationalism requires a good deal of explanation.

And what the foundation doctrines of dispensationalism are has to be determined by quotes from the founders of dispensationalism, which is a consistent literalism and that God now has two peoples, Old Covenant Israel and the Church.

 

[Danoh]

Wrong again, northwye...

The Mystery: the manifold wisdom of God unto the Body's glory in His Son over those presently fallen positions of authority or principalities and powers in those equally fallen high places.

In contrast to the Law: unto Israel's glory in the Son's glory over the earth's even now still fallen authority.

Towards what end...in the end?

Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

 

[patrick jane]

Wrong Danoh - again

 

[DAN P]

Hi Danoh and what is your point about what northwye wrote ??

What did I miss ??

dan p

 

[Danoh]

Hi Danoh and what is your point about what northwye wrote ??

dan p

In 1 Cor.2 and 3 Paul says to the Corinthians that the Mystery he could not speak unto them of concerns the Body's glory.

In contrast, Moses asserts in Deut. 4 that Israel's glory is the Law.

The Mystery: the Body's glory had been meant to be beheld by those fallen principalities and powers (authorities) in the Heavenlies and spells their doom.

The Law: Israel's glory had been meant to be beheld by those fallen authorities on the Earth and spells their end.

Turns out the Lord will first settle accounts in those fallen High Places, and then proceed to do likewise on the Earth...

Both aspects towards His ultimate purpose in the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times, at which point the Son will then turn both back unto the Father, 1 Cor. 15.

A Two-Fold Purpose: Prophecy (Israel/the Earth) and Mystery (The Body/the Heavenlies).

northwye speaks against that...

I hold to ONE Mystery - THE Mystery (comprised of various aspects) preached by Paul from Acts 9 through Philemon (according to Paul's own words in Romans thru Philemon) Gal. 1:21; Acts 15:41.

Anyway, hope that clears that up as to where I see this from.

 

[northwye]

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:" I Corinthians 2: 7

σοφία, sophia, Strong's number 4678,wisdom

Paul was given some understanding of the wisdom of God about what we call the Gospel.

And the Gospel of Christ is much more than Paul's brief summary in I Corinthians 15: 3-11.

Some hints of parts of this Gospel can be found in the rituals of the Old Covenant and in the writings of the Old Testament prophets. But Christ himself revealed much of the hidden Gospel, and he gave Paul additional understandings of it. See Acts 26: 13-19.

In I Corinthians 2: 4-15 Paul is talking about this new revelation and understanding of the Gospel of Christ. In order to show that the basic doctrines of dispendationalism or Christian Zionism are found in this revelation of the Gospel, you have to find that in other scripture. And there are New Testament scriptures whose focus do not support dispensationalist doctrines. Some of these are John 10: 16, Romans 12: 4-5, Ephesians 4: 4, Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8, Romans 11: 17-20, II Corinthians 3: 6-11, Galatians 3: 3, 16-17, 27-29, Galatians 4: 24-26, and Hebrews 10: 9.

 

[Interplanner]

Danoh wrote:
Turns out the Lord will first settle accounts in those fallen High Places, and then proceed to do likewise on the Earth...

Both aspects towards His ultimate purpose in the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times, at which point the Son will then turn both back unto the Father, 1 Cor. 15.

A Two-Fold Purpose: Prophecy (Israel/the Earth) and Mystery (The Body/the Heavenlies).


Once again, why do keep mocking or denying 2P2P? When you really get down to it, it is exactly what you are saying, which was taught as INDISPENSABLE by Ryrie. D'ism is nothing if not 2P2P.

The first line here is too ridiculous to consider. What you have for evidence is a compound sentence from Ephesians that was meant to show that the Gospel of Christ had overturned the ideologies of both.

and you need to clarify if the thing on earth sets up a theocracy for Judaism. There will not be such. It never shows in the NT. There is the judgement and the establishing of the NHNE and they are not as 'material' as many would like to think, but you have to use 'familiar' words to express the unfamiliar.

 

[northwye]

One of the fundamental doctrines of Christian Zionism is that the physical bloodline from Abraham is still in effect. Otherwise, how could those born after the Cross and the Day of Pentecost who are not born again in Christ be said to still be a people of God by guys like Lewis S. Chafer. The Christian Zionists say God has two peoples, Israel and the Church, but by Israel they must mean Old Covenant Israel. And for the Christian Zionists the multitude of Old Covenant Israel are the people of God.

The founders of Christian Zionism - John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer - imply that those of the bloodline from Abraham through Isaac and Jacob are entitled by that bloodline to being treated by God in a special way than those not in the bloodline. The dispensationalist or Christian Zionist teaching that they, as a house, all would be saved at a point in the future implies that, whether its everyone in physical Israel who ever lived or just those alive at some one point in time, the selection of those saved is based upon the physical bloodline. This is a way of saying they are the chosen people because of their bloodline.

http://anothervoicerev184.blogspot.c...-of-jesus.html

"Return of Jesus Christ, The Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, By Lewis Sperry Chafer 1871-1952."

Chafer says "The nation Israel, God's chosen earthly people, to whom at least five-sixths of the Bible is addressed and with whom the great covenants are made (Rom 9:4-5) -- which covenants secure to that nation a land, a nation, a throne, a King, and a kingdom -- are now scattered throughout all the nations of the earth (Deut 4:26-28; Deut 28:63-68; Jer 16:13), and are to remain scattered until they (a remnant; ed.) are gathered into their own land (Deut 30:3-6; Isa 11:11-12; Isa 14:1-3; Isa 60:1-22; Jer 23:6-8; Jer 32:37-44; Jer 33:7-9; Eze 37:21-25; Mic 4:6-8) under the reign of Christ Jesus at His return."

Lewis S. Chafer refers to physical Israel as God's earthy chosen people. And early dispensationalists talk about the church as being only a "parenthesis" within dispensations.

Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says:
"basic promise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed
in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction
throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today,1966, pp.44-45.

"From the time of Christ’s rejection by Israel until the time when God deals specifically with Israel again in the seventieth week it is not possible to refer to a remnant of the nation Israel." Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, 1965, by J. Dwight Pentecost

All of Old Covenant Israel did not reject Christ in the First Century, a remnant accepted him as Romans 11: 1-5 says. And this remnant became the elect.

Saying there is no remnant of Israel in the Christian era would imply also that there is no falling away from sound doctrine in II Thessalonians 2: 3-4, no leavening of the kingdom of God in Luke 13: 21, no departing from the faith in the latter times of I Timothy 4: 1-2, no having a form of godliness but denying the power, no not being able to come to the knowledge of the truth and no resisting of the truth in II Timothy 3: 5, 7-8, no being unable to endure sound doctrine in II Timothy 4: 3-4 and no false prophets bringing in damnable heresies of II Peter 2: 1-3. The Capital C Christian Zionist Church, never falls into apostasy in the view of Christian Zionism.

The Remnant of Israel arises when the multitude in the Church falls into false doctrines and practices. If the multitude is thought never to fall into false doctrines, until the Christian Zionist scenario of the end begins with their one man anti-Christ sitting in a newly rebuilt temple in Jerusalem - which is always future - then there is no need of a remnant in the eyes of the multitude or of those leading the multitude.

Probably J. Dwight Pentecost is talking about the Christian Zionist interpretation of Daniel 9: 25-27 in saying God deals specifically with Israel again.

 

[Danoh]

northwye - ALL you Replacementists REMAIN clueless to in what sense, specifically, is "ye sons of Jacob" a reference to whom it is a reference to.

 

[DAN P]

Hi and you are mistaken that Paul's gospel were HINTED in the OT !!

Col 1:26 says that The MYSTERY HAVING BEEN KEPT SECRET IS in the Greek PERFECT TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE and in a PARTICIPLE !!

This means that God said it began with the beginning of the Paul's salvation and will CONTINUE in the Present tense all during the Grace of God continues !!

The PASSIVE VOICE means that it is God that is producing the action of the Prefect tense !!

The PARTICIPLE is the word HAVING which puts alway as far as to the beginning of 2 Tim 1:9 !!

But is not MADE MANIFEST to His saints during the Dispensation of Grace and it is OBVIOUS that you are not in TUNE with the Holy Spirit !!

dan p

 

[Danoh]

Hi and you are mistaken that Paul's gospel were HINTED in the OT !!

Col 1:26 says that The MYSTERY HAVING BEEN KEPT SECRET IS in the Greek PERFECT TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE and in a PARTICIPLE !!

This means that God said it began with the beginning of the Paul's salvation and will CONTINUE in the Present tense all during the Grace of God continues !!

The PASSIVE VOICE means that it is God that is producing the action of the Prefect tense !!

The PARTICIPLE is the word HAVING which puts alway as far as to the beginning of 2 Tim 1:9 !!

But is not MADE MANIFEST to His saints during the Dispensation of Grace and it is OBVIOUS that you are not in TUNE with the Holy Spirit !!

dan p

What's your take on a passage like Romans 11:26, or say, on 1 Cor. 15:1-4?

I take it you hold to the Brockonian view on those

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

northwye - ALL you Replacementists REMAIN clueless to in what sense, specifically, is "ye sons of Jacob" a reference to whom it is a reference to.

Not when it's spiritually discerned.

Since you remain guilty of not understanding where a person is coming from.
Where your coming from and accusing others of not understanding is a false accusation.

We ALL start out flesh.(the House of Jacob before he became Israel)

 

[DAN P]

What's your take on a passage like Romans 11:26, or say, on 1 Cor. 15:1-4?

I take it you hold to the Brockonian view on those

Hi and I will on Saturday !!

And I have learned , more than I learned from him , if you study hard and often as BROCK praciticed 1 Cor 11:1 !!

dan p

 

[northwye]

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26. Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints. 27. To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." Colossians 1: 25-27

Don't take one verse out of a text like this important one.

The Greek verb is αποκεκρυμμενον, aorist, perfect passive participle of apokruptó, to hide, conceal.

This verb form says the action of the verb, to conceal, was completed at a point in the past without active participation by Paul the writer.

The verb form itself does not indicate the extent of the concealment of the mystery at a point in the past. That is, the verb form does not say whether the concealment was total or that there were some suggestions in the Old Testament of what the Gospel of Christ was to be.

The doctrine that salvation was to be offered to all mankind is seen in Hosea 2: 23, "And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God."

Look at Colossians 1: 27, which is a part of this entire text, "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

This promise - Christ in you, the hope of glory - as part of the Gospel that Paul is revealing may not be in any Old Testament text even as a hint.

I have heard that some dispensationalist-Christian Zionists have said that the hope of glory is their pre-trib rapture rather than Christ in them.

"Christ in you, the hope of glory" is an inspiring promise. Do those who hold on to another Gospel really have Christ in them, if they do not have believe in all his teachings and those of his apostles?

"For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." II Corinthians 11: 4

Paul says in Galatians 1: 6-9, "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

 

[Interplanner]

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26. Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints. 27. To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." Colossians 1: 25-27

Don't take one verse out of a text like this important one.

The Greek verb is αποκεκρυμμενον, aorist, perfect passive participle of apokruptó, to hide, conceal.

This verb form says the action of the verb, to conceal, was completed at a point in the past without active participation by Paul the writer.

The verb form itself does not indicate the extent of the concealment of the mystery at a point in the past. That is, the verb form does not say whether the concealment was total or that there were some suggestions in the Old Testament of what the Gospel of Christ was to be.

The doctrine that salvation was to be offered to all mankind is seen in Hosea 2: 23, "And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God."

Look at Colossians 1: 27, which is a part of this entire text, "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

This promise - Christ in you, the hope of glory - as part of the Gospel that Paul is revealing may not be in any Old Testament text even as a hint.

I have heard that some dispensationalist-Christian Zionists have said that the hope of glory is their pre-trib rapture rather than Christ in them.

"Christ in you, the hope of glory" is an inspiring promise. Do those who hold on to another Gospel really have Christ in them, if they do not have believe in all his teachings and those of his apostles?

"For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." II Corinthians 11: 4

Paul says in Galatians 1: 6-9, "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

AS you are interested in the Greek, please note that in "Christ in you", you is plural and collective. So it may be best to go "Christ among all of you Gentile believers." 'In' is OK, if you mean the belief on Christ; it would not work to put the event of the crucifixion "in" them.

Christ being spread about among the nations by preaching is indeed in the OT.

 

[Interplanner]

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26. Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints. 27. To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." Colossians 1: 25-27

Don't take one verse out of a text like this important one.

The Greek verb is αποκεκρυμμενον, aorist, perfect passive participle of apokruptó, to hide, conceal.

This verb form says the action of the verb, to conceal, was completed at a point in the past without active participation by Paul the writer.

The verb form itself does not indicate the extent of the concealment of the mystery at a point in the past. That is, the verb form does not say whether the concealment was total or that there were some suggestions in the Old Testament of what the Gospel of Christ was to be.

The doctrine that salvation was to be offered to all mankind is seen in Hosea 2: 23, "And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God."

Look at Colossians 1: 27, which is a part of this entire text, "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

This promise - Christ in you, the hope of glory - as part of the Gospel that Paul is revealing may not be in any Old Testament text even as a hint.

I have heard that some dispensationalist-Christian Zionists have said that the hope of glory is their pre-trib rapture rather than Christ in them.

"Christ in you, the hope of glory" is an inspiring promise. Do those who hold on to another Gospel really have Christ in them, if they do not have believe in all his teachings and those of his apostles?

"For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." II Corinthians 11: 4

Paul says in Galatians 1: 6-9, "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

AS you are interested in the Greek, please note that in "Christ in you", you is plural and collective. So it may be best to go "Christ among all of you Gentile believers." 'In' is OK, if you mean the belief on Christ; it would not work to put the event of the crucifixion "in" them.

Christ being spread about among the nations by preaching is indeed in the OT.

 

[northwye]

"AS you are interested in the Greek, please note that in "Christ in you", you is plural and collective. So it may be best to go "Christ among all of you Gentile believers." 'In' is OK, if you mean the belief on Christ; it would not work to put the event of the crucifixion "in" them.

Christ being spread about among the nations by preaching is indeed in the OT."

This is an argument against Colossians 1; 27 saying, as translated in the KJV, "...to whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this ministry among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

Apparently the argument above is that Christ does not enter into a born again believer, but is merely "among the Gentile believers."

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:" Philippians 2: 5. In you is also from ἐν ὑμῖν, and ὑμῖν, or humin is String's number 5213.

By Christ en humin in Colossians 1: 27 Paul means the hope of glory is Christ in you all, that is, Christ can be in all who are born again in him. En humin does not mean that Christ is just "among" the group of people who are born again, and is not in each one. It does mean each individual of the born again group has Christ in him.

"I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

To be born again by the Holy Spirit is to have the Holy Spirit in you, which is having Christ in you. Unless you have Christ in you, you are not Christ's.

The statement above that Christ is not in individuals but is among the Gentile believers looks like argument for the love of argument.

William Tyndale translates Colossians 1: 27 as "... to whom God would make known the glorious riches of this mystery among the gentiles which riches is Christ in you the hope of glory." He does not translate en humin as among you.