ECT Which way do you understand Ephesians 4:22

[musterion]

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts

A note on this:

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]You lay aside the old self (old man) - without being too technical, the verb lay aside can be translated one of two ways, (1) either indicating a completed past action (this would be our position whereas the second translation reflects our practice) or (2) an action the believer is to carry out (the latter almost giving it the sense of an imperative). This distinction is even seen in the way the various Bible translations render the Greek text. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]For example, the following rendering translates the Greek as if it were a fact or a past completed action...


Wuest: that you have put off once for all with reference to your former manner of life the old self who is being corrupted according to the passionate desires of deceit;



In contrast, the following versions render lay aside (put off, throw off, strip) as an action the believer is to carry out...


KJV: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;


NASB: that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit

http://www.preceptaustin.org/ephesians_420-22.htm
[/FONT]

I disagree with the above that the KJ necessarily has it as an action we're to carry out, since that rendering can still be taken either way, as can the NASB and others.

Anyway...which do you consider the more likely point of this verse: that in Christ the believer has already (positionally) put off the crucified old man (Rom 6:6; Col 3:9)?

Or that it's a command we're expected to make a conscious effort to obey (Rom 13:12; 1 Cor 9:27; Eph 4:25)?

Or both -- the former fact leading to the latter walk in faith?

 

[heir]

A note on this:

I disagree with the above that the KJ necessarily has it as an action we're to carry out, since that rendering can still be taken either way, as can the NASB and others.

Anyway...which do you consider the more likely point of this verse: that in Christ the believer has already (positionally) put off the crucified old man (Rom 6:6; Col 3:9)?

Or that it's a command we're expected to make a conscious effort to obey (Rom 13:12; 1 Cor 9:27; Eph 4:25)?

Or both -- the former fact leading to the latter walk in faith?

Ephesians 4:22 KJV practical
Colossians 3:9 KJV positional

I see that our old man is crucified with Him (Romans 6:6 KJV) so do the math/reckon it so (Romans 6:7-11 KJV).

 

[Squeaky]

It is an action that we must carry out. It is our works that Jesus has commanded us to do. Crucify our emotions and feelings. Until one has done this they don't belong to Christ yet.

Rom 8:13-14
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
(NKJ)

Gal 5:24-26
24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
(NKJ)

Rom 13:12-14
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.
13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy.
14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.
(NKJ)

 

[musterion]

Ephesians 4:22 KJV practical
Colossians 3:9 KJV positional

I see that our old man is crucified with Him (Romans 6:6 KJV) so do the math/reckon it so (Romans 6:7-11 KJV).

Good post.

Anyone ever tell you that you resemble Madeline Kahn?

 

[musterion]

Crucify our emotions and feelings. Until one has done this they don't belong to Christ yet.

Paul said the old man, and all that he is and does, is already counted as crucified (Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24, Gal 6:14).

Unless my memory is slipping, I know of nowhere that Paul tells believers to crucify their old man, or that believers are even able to do so. Only God can do that.

 

[Nick M]

Paul does mention to walk in the Spirit elsewhere. This is the same thing. Walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh is trusting in his finished work. You can not be made perfect by the flesh. We are already complete in him.

 

[Desert Reign]

A note on this:

I disagree with the above that the KJ necessarily has it as an action we're to carry out, since that rendering can still be taken either way, as can the NASB and others.

Anyway...which do you consider the more likely point of this verse: that in Christ the believer has already (positionally) put off the crucified old man (Rom 6:6; Col 3:9)?

Or that it's a command we're expected to make a conscious effort to obey (Rom 13:12; 1 Cor 9:27; Eph 4:25)?

Or both -- the former fact leading to the latter walk in faith?

Just on the issue of the Greek text, the passage is basically governed by the first sentence of the chapter 'I urge you...'

If you take verse 22 to be a statement then grammatically you have to take the following verses also to be statements. As often, the context determines.

 

[Cross Reference]

<delete>

 

[oatmeal]

A note on this:

I disagree with the above that the KJ necessarily has it as an action we're to carry out, since that rendering can still be taken either way, as can the NASB and others.

Anyway...which do you consider the more likely point of this verse: that in Christ the believer has already (positionally) put off the crucified old man (Rom 6:6; Col 3:9)?

Or that it's a command we're expected to make a conscious effort to obey (Rom 13:12; 1 Cor 9:27; Eph 4:25)?

Or both -- the former fact leading to the latter walk in faith?

Good question

Our old man is crucified, but we must put it off.

We have received the gift of salvation/eternal life/holy spirit.

Spiritually, we have been redeemed, we have been justified, we have been made righteous, we have been sanctified, we have the ministry of reconciliation

We have those things. I Corinthians 1:30 God made them unto us.

We must learn to put on our salvation in our minds and put our sonship rights to use.

Having something and doing something with it are two different issues.

Philippians 2:2 Since the Christians on this forum do not exhibit these qualities, we have some work to do. someone is not being like minded on God's word. Someone needs to put off the old man and put on the new. Someone is lying and is not speaking truth to his neighbor.

Why do some Christians

1. continue to sin while being angry and let the sun go down on their wrath.

2. continue to give place to the devil

3. continue stealing instead of working with their hands the thing which is good that they may have to give to them that need

4. continue to let corrupt communication proceed out of their mouth instead of that which is edifying that they may minister grace to the hearers

5........... Ephesians 6:24............

Is it because they have not put off their old manner of life and not renewed their mind and not put on the new man which is created in righteousness and true holiness?

When will they begin to do so?

Maybe when they realize that they are commanded to do so.

 

[Nick M]

<delete>

Wise choice.

 

[Cross Reference]

Wise choice.

Yes. Just trying to keep it simply for you.

 

[Doom]

The old man has indeed been crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6), and we have been circumcised from the flesh (Col 2:11). We are now in the Spirit, no longer in the flesh (Rom 8:9), a new creature in Christ (2 Cor 5:17).

The body is still dead, because of sin, but we (who we are now in Christ; our eternal identity) is alive (has life).

Having been sanctified Acts 26:18, 1 Cor 1:2;6:11, Heb 10:10;14 (set apart from our old man (Rom 6:6), from sin (Rom 6:7;18), from Law (Rom 7:6), from darkness (Acts 26:18; Eph 5:8, Col 1:13, 1 Thes 5:5, and from death Rom 6:9, Rom 8:2) we are now being sanctified (renewing our minds with all these truths concerning the reality of what Christ has done, and who we are in Him).

Putting off the old man, (reckoning ourselves dead to sin, Law, darkness, wrath, death) is a process of living by the Spirit (that is complete, holy, righteous, blameless, and perfect) and not living according to the flesh (which is perishing 2 Cor 4:16, corrupted 1 Cor 15:50, contrary Gal 5:17, and cannot please God Rom 8:8). The old man was under the law of sin and death Rom 8:2, condemnation, wrath, etc. We are no longer owned by the old man, no longer his slave, but have now put on Christ Gal 3:27, having been purchased with His blood Acts 20:28, and a slave to righteousness Rom 6:18.

 

[intojoy]

A note on this:

I disagree with the above that the KJ necessarily has it as an action we're to carry out, since that rendering can still be taken either way, as can the NASB and others.

Anyway...which do you consider the more likely point of this verse: that in Christ the believer has already (positionally) put off the crucified old man (Rom 6:6; Col 3:9)?

Or that it's a command we're expected to make a conscious effort to obey (Rom 13:12; 1 Cor 9:27; Eph 4:25)?

Or both -- the former fact leading to the latter walk in faith?

Both. But most importantly the positional truth and then the "reckon" ourselves dead to sin.

 

[intojoy]

Paul said the old man, and all that he is and does, is already counted as crucified (Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24, Gal 6:14).

Unless my memory is slipping, I know of nowhere that Paul tells believers to crucify their old man, or that believers are even able to do so. Only God can do that.

The believer can walk after the flesh. Never in the flesh but after his flesh and if he does he becomes a slave to sin. That is why we reckon ourselves already crucified together with Christ. Reckon meaning we make a conclusion after considering the facts. We can become slaves of righteousness by faith in these positional truths but first we must reckon them to be true as they are true and furthermore we keep on reckoning.

 

[Doom]

The believer can walk after the flesh. Never in the flesh but after his flesh and if he does he becomes a slave to sin.

No one in Christ can become a slave to sin.

 

[Lon]

A note on this:

I disagree with the above that the KJ necessarily has it as an action we're to carry out, since that rendering can still be taken either way, as can the NASB and others.

Anyway...which do you consider the more likely point of this verse: that in Christ the believer has already (positionally) put off the crucified old man (Rom 6:6; Col 3:9)?

Or that it's a command we're expected to make a conscious effort to obey (Rom 13:12; 1 Cor 9:27; Eph 4:25)?

Or both -- the former fact leading to the latter walk in faith?

Both. MAD doesn't have to choose on this one, imho. In a practical way, we want to be like our Savior and behavior affects others in our church Body life, and attracts others to Christ. It is not supposed to be something we judge one another's salvation position upon. In a very simple way, I want to be like my Savior and assume this is a good motivation. I also believe Christ is working in us NOW to be like Him, conforming us and giving us a taste of glory. I don't hold to the same theology, but I believe I share a good number of the same concerns and this is one of them that's important.

 

[Nick M]

One is either a slave to sin, or a slave to righteousness. There is no in between positions.

 

[Lon]

One is either a slave to sin, or a slave to righteousness. There is no in between positions.

This is understood, and I think agreed.

Do you ever have to ask another person for forgiveness for being a jerk? Ever snap at someone and regret it?

There is a practical side to our being in Christ.

 

[Doom]

This is understood, and I think agreed.

Do you ever have to ask another person for forgiveness for being a jerk? Ever snap at someone and regret it?

There is a practical side to our being in Christ.

Pot speaks

 

[DAN P]

A note on this:

I disagree with the above that the KJ necessarily has it as an action we're to carry out, since that rendering can still be taken either way, as can the NASB and others.

Anyway...which do you consider the more likely point of this verse: that in Christ the believer has already (positionally) put off the crucified old man (Rom 6:6; Col 3:9)?

Or that it's a command we're expected to make a conscious effort to obey (Rom 13:12; 1 Cor 9:27; Eph 4:25)?

Or both -- the former fact leading to the latter walk in faith?

Hi to all , and here is a dispensational translation by Robert C Brock and wrote a word for word study of Ephesians !

Eph 4:22 , ( that ) you PUT AWAY from Yourself concerning the FORMER manner of life THE OLD MAN which is BEING CORRUPTED according to the Desires of DECEIT .

#1 , This proves that all are SINNERS no matter who they are !!

#2 , The verb " put off " is in the S. Aorist Tense or the Past tense !

#3 , The second verb : is corrupted " is in the Present Tense , Passive Voice and a Participle !

#4 ,The present tense , passive , participle here , with the Present Tense signifying a Progressive condition of Corruption which characterizes the Old Man .

#5 The Passive Voice represents the an Outside Evil Power ( Satanic influences upon the sin nature as the Old Man has no power over the Sins and Lusts of the flesh .

There is a lot more if my computer would work right and most have a hard time explaining the Old Man and our New Nature , as some will say the Old Nature has been eradicated and some are dispensationalists .

dan p