What About Those In Non-Christian Lands Who Have Never Heard The Gospel?

[JAG]

Question: How is God good or just to abandon to Hell those who have never even heard the gospel?

JAG Writes:

Consider the following:

First, we Bible believing Christians start with the true proclamation that
God always does that which is right.

This means that the God who always does what is right, world-wide
and history-wide, is never going to abandon one of His elect to Gehenna,
but will find a way to save them and give them the gift of eternal life as
per John 3:16's "shall not perish but have eternal life."

Second, we Bible believing Christians MUST stay within the confines
of doctrinal orthodoxy and so we hold solid and fast to John 14:6
that correctly teaches: no man can come to the Father except through
believing in the Lord Jesus as his Savior.

Third, none of the above prevents us from considering the following:

Eternal Now. With regard to God's knowledge there is no past. present and future.
God sees everything in the Eternal NOW. God's Omniscience demands this position.
God now knows all that can be known, God does not learn new information and new truths.


So?

So the Eternal NOW knowledge is God's reality. And God's reality IS REALITY.

What YOU (we) can see is very limited and what YOU (we) can see IS NOT REALITY.

God has Middle Knowledge -- what that means is that God sees and knows fully
what every human being would choose to do under all possible sets of different
circumstances.


Let us take for an example a man named Akua Adisa, born in Africa in the year 1600 A.D.

Akua lived and died never knowing a single word of the gospel message.

God's Middle Knowledge knows precisely what Akua Adisa will choose to do in all possible
sets of circumstances --

-- for example if Akua Adisa had been born in, say, South Carolina in the year 1990 A.D.
and had traveled to hear Franklin Graham preach the gospel.

How is this ↓ conclusion NOT compelling?
If the Sovereign God knows that Akua Adisa would have accepted the Lord Jesus as his
Savior if he had been born in the year 1990 A.D. in South Carolina when he heard Franklin
Graham preach the gospel then in God's reality Akua Adisa has accepted the Lord Jesus as
his Savior and has therefore fulfilled the requirements of John 14:6 no man can come to the
Father except through faith in the Lord Jesus.

Are we not compelled to reach this conclusion?

Thoughts?

__________________________

PS
God's Omniscience demands we hold that God has what the philosophers call
Middle Knowledge.


JAG

[]

 

[Hoping]

Question: How is God good or just to abandon to Hell those who have never even heard the gospel?

JAG Writes:

Consider the following:

First, we Bible believing Christians start with the true proclamation that
God always does that which is right.

This means that the God who always does what is right, world-wide
and history-wide, is never going to abandon one of His elect to Gehenna,
but will find a way to save them and give them the gift of eternal life as
per John 3:16's "shall not perish but have eternal life."

Second, we Bible believing Christians MUST stay within the confines
of doctrinal orthodoxy and so we hold solid and fast to John 14:6
that correctly teaches: no man can come to the Father except through
believing in the Lord Jesus as his Savior.

Third, none of the above prevents us from considering the following:

Eternal Now. With regard to God's knowledge there is no past. present and future.
God sees everything in the Eternal NOW. God's Omniscience demands this position.
God now knows all that can be known, God does not learn new information and new truths.


So?

So the Eternal NOW knowledge is God's reality. And God's reality IS REALITY.

What YOU (we) can see is very limited and what YOU (we) can see IS NOT REALITY.

God has Middle Knowledge -- what that means is that God sees and knows fully
what every human being would choose to do under all possible sets of different
circumstances.


Let us take for an example a man named Akua Adisa, born in Africa in the year 1600 A.D.

Akua lived and died never knowing a single word of the gospel message.

God's Middle Knowledge knows precisely what Akua Adisa will choose to do in all possible
sets of circumstances --

-- for example if Akua Adisa had been born in, say, South Carolina in the year 1990 A.D.
and had traveled to hear Franklin Graham preach the gospel.

How is this ↓ conclusion NOT compelling?
If the Sovereign God knows that Akua Adisa would have accepted the Lord Jesus as his
Savior if he had been born in the year 1990 A.D. in South Carolina when he heard Franklin
Graham preach the gospel then in God's reality Akua Adisa has accepted the Lord Jesus as
his Savior and has therefore fulfilled the requirements of John 14:6 no man can come to the
Father except through faith in the Lord Jesus.
Are we not compelled to reach this conclusion?
Thoughts?
__________________________
PS
God's Omniscience demands we hold that God has what the philosophers call
Middle Knowledge.

If any man wants to know God, God will be revealed to him.
The vision Paul had of the Macedonian might prove that.
It is written..."And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them." (Acts 16:9-10)

 

[JAG]

If any man wants to know God, God will be revealed to him.
The vision Paul had of the Macedonian might prove that.
It is written..."And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them." (Acts 16:9-10)

Re the bolded: Yes Amen x's 10

JAG

[]

 

[Bradley D]

Those who have never heard the Word! Do they still have a God given conscience? Letting them know good from evil.

 

[Right Divider]

The bottom line is that God will judge justly.

 

[ttruscott]

Question: How is God good or just to abandon to Hell those who have never even heard the gospel?

The basic tenet of Pre-Conception Existence Theology is that we all existed as spirits in a spirit society BEFORE the creation of the physical universe which ALL the children of GOD saw, Job 38:7. During this time we all heard GOD's proclamation of Deity, HIS offer of marriage to us and the call to put our faith in HIM to be able to live as HIS bride or, by our free will, to put our faith against HIM as telling us lies and so to end in hell.

ImCo:
Everyone is a sinner when born into earthly human life by their own previous free will decisions. Iow, only sinners who became sinners by their free will, are sent to earth to work out their destiny...either the fulfillment of their election for their faith in YHWH as telling us the truth or as having repudiated HIM as a liar and therefore a false god, unworthy of worship.

Every person created in HIS image heard the gospel before earthly life, Col 1:23, so not hearing it as a human is moot.

 

[JAG]

Those who have never heard the Word! Do they still have a God given conscience? Letting them know good from evil.

Yes I do believe they do.

Also . .

Is it not reasonable to believe that the person who responds favorably
to his limited knowledge of God revealed to him in natural law and
conscience in the absence of the gospel in his part of the world
and in his time in history, would also respond favorably to the gospel
preached in our world today?

My view: Yes it is reasonable to believe that.

Best

JAG

 

[JAG]

PS to the OP:

The question is raised: Do we, or do we not, have a solid
Biblical commitment to the doctrine of God's Omniscience
-- God knows everything? If the answer to that question is
yes, then the conclusion logically must follow that God could
know what Akua Adisa would choose under all possible sets
of different circumstances -- and this means that it is possible
for God to know that Akua Adisa would choose to believe in
the Lord Jesus as his Savior if he had been born in South
Carolina in the year 1990 A.D. and had traveled to hear
Franklin Graham preach the gospel, which knowledge would
be God's reality which IS REALITY.


JAG

 

[JAG]

Calvin disagreed with Molina's Middle Knowledge:

At this point in my thinking I don't see any compelling reasons why we
cannot hold to both Calvin's divine decrees and Molina's Middle Knowledge's.

If I am correct . . .
God's knowledge could be based on His divine decrees, but He
could also know what any man would choose to do in all sets of different
circumstances.

That is, God could have predestined the destiny of the OP's Akua Adisa
and at the same time ALSO know what Akua would choose to do in all
possible sets of different circumstances.

My view is that our Biblical commitment to God's Omniscience (God knows
everything) would compel us to believe God knows what every man would
choose to do in all possible different sets of circumstances.

Question: Is God's *foreknowledge and man's free will being compatible:

I feel I am compelled to say yes because I am theologically
committed to both being true -- which is not to say that I can
explain HOW to reconcile the two doctrines. I would quote
Deut 29:29 "The secret things belong to God" on this jewel of a
seeming contradiction. And the principle in Acts 1:7 "It is not for
you to know"__Jesus

*Our Calvinist position on foreknowledge is that it is not mere
pre-knowledge, but it actually connected with predestination.


JAG

[]

 

[ttruscott]

*Our Calvinist position on foreknowledge is that it is not mere
pre-knowledge, but it actually connected with predestination.
JAG

PCE theology suggests that HIS omniscience about our lives is due to HIS predestination of them to fulfill HIS promise of election or damnation after everyone made their free will uncoerced choices to accept HIM or to reject HIM.

HIS predestination of our lives did NOT create our fates but only predicted the content of our lives to fulfill HIS promises to HIS elect in perfect harmony with our free will decisions. We chose our fates, heaven or hell. HE chose to give us lives perfectly suited to each sinful but elect person to sanctify them, redeem them from their going astray into sin and to make them heaven ready to be HIS Bride by bringing them to full holiness as the parable of the weeds suggests.

Predestination is not causative of our fates but is predictive of our fates... We caused our own fates by our free will response to YHWH's proclamation of deity and what that meant for us.

 

[JAG]

PCE theology suggests that HIS omniscience about our lives is due to HIS predestination of them to fulfill HIS promise of election or damnation after everyone made their free will uncoerced choices to accept HIM or to reject HIM.

HIS predestination of our lives did NOT create our fates but only predicted the content of our lives to fulfill HIS promises to HIS elect in perfect harmony with our free will decisions. We chose our fates, heaven or hell. HE chose to give us lives perfectly suited to each sinful but elect person to sanctify them, redeem them from their going astray into sin and to make them heaven ready to be HIS Bride by bringing them to full holiness as the parable of the weeds suggests.

Predestination is not causative of our fates but is predictive of our fates... We caused our own fates by our free will response to YHWH's proclamation of deity and what that meant for us.

I am with you in spirit --ie in the spirit of what I think
you want to preserve that is, our human free will.

However, my position is that BOTH are true, that is
God's absolute predestination that was the first cause
of what we chose to do AND AT THE SAME TIME we used
our Free Will to freely choose it.

Is that a contradiction? No. It only appears to be one.
In this life, I so not think we will ever be able to reconcile the
Absolute Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of men.

Best

JAG

[]

 

[JAG]

Supplement to the article:

What about those in non-Christian lands in say 1600 A.D. who died
having never heard a single world of the gospel message? Is God
good and just to abandon such persons to Gehenna? And does He
actually do that?

It is important to find a reasonable solution to the problems raised
by these three questions because the notion that God consigns to Gehenna
for all eternity all people (past, present, and future) who lived and died
without ever hearing the gospel, characterizes God as unreasonable,
mean-spirited and cruel (which He most certainly is not).

Many who hold the view that God does do exactly that, have not paused
to seriously consider what they so readily believe about the character of
God.

Akua Adisa was born in 1600 A.D. in Africa and he lived to an old age and
died without ever hearing a single word of the gospel.

Are you going to proclaim that God will consign Akua to sternal Hell and
at the same time tell everybody that "God is love?"

Remember, on the traditional view of Hell, when Akua has suffered in agony
in Hell for 999 trillion (to the power of 500) years, he is no nearer to the end
than when he first entered Hell. It is not possible to reconcile such as this
with 1 John 4:8 "God is love."

Thought Experiment:
How long is an Eternity of agony in Hell? Let us say a sparrow is magically
assigned the task of cutting the Earth in half and the sparrow is to fly by
the Earth every 100 years and brush one of its wings against the ground
surface of the Earth. How many years would it take the sparrow to cut the
Earth in half? For argument's sake let us say it took in years 999 trillion to
the power of 999 trillion. So? So Akua Adisa, after being in agony in
Hell for as long as it took that sparrow to cut the Earth in half, would be no
closer to the end of his agony than when he first entered Hell.

Such as this is not possible to reconcile with 1 John 4:8 "God is love"
or with the general character of God as presented in the Bible.

We need a solution to this problem and a good start in finding one is God's
Middle Knowledge as presented in this article.

JAG

[]

 

[ttruscott]

Are you going to proclaim that God will consign Akua to sternal Hell and
at the same time tell everybody that "God is love?"

ImCo,
consign is the wrong word as if it was arbitrary. The proper word is judgement. Those judged to have sinned the unforgivable sin are consigned to hell once their bad example is no longer necessary, Matt 13:27-30, while those who sinned only forgivable sins are consigned to heaven as HIS Bride which will be fulfilled after their perfection in holiness is achieved by HIS grace.

To be truly free, a free will decision must be sacrosanct, unchangeable by the choice or power of another person. This means that IF someone chooses to repudiate YHWH by their free will as a false god and a liar and so repudiate the salvation found in the Son and IF the only power to save a sinner from hell is in YHWH, then they have by their free will put themselves outside of HIS loving mercy and salvation for all eternity!

As such they are unforgivable by their own free will choice, destined to the destruction of hell whatever that might be.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Yes I do believe they do.

Also . .

Is it not reasonable to believe that the person who responds favorably
to his limited knowledge of God revealed to him in natural law and
conscience in the absence of the gospel in his part of the world
and in his time in history, would also respond favorably to the gospel
preached in our world today?

My view: Yes it is reasonable to believe that.

Best

JAG

The problem with that is... folks thinking that death doesn't open a new door.
Also, that God doesn't work with folks on an individual level. (one of the main problems with MAD)
Fact is... man's time of death statement on a death certificate has no bearing on God's time.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

ImCo,
consign is the wrong word as if it was arbitrary. The proper word is judgement. Those judged to have sinned the unforgivable sin are consigned to hell once their bad example is no longer necessary, Matt 13:27-30, while those who sinned only forgivable sins are consigned to heaven as HIS Bride which will be fulfilled after their perfection in holiness is achieved by HIS grace.

To be truly free, a free will decision must be sacrosanct, unchangeable by the choice or power of another person. This means that IF someone chooses to repudiate YHWH by their free will as a false god and a liar and so repudiate the salvation found in the Son and IF the only power to save a sinner from hell is in YHWH, then they have by their free will put themselves outside of HIS loving mercy and salvation for all eternity!

As such they are unforgivable by their own free will choice, destined to the destruction of hell whatever that might be.

All men are unforgivable.
Hence, MERCY.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Also, that God doesn't work with folks on an individual level. (one of the main problems with MAD)

Uh... what?

Mid-Acts Dispensation does in fact teach that God works with people on an individual level...

What it ALSO teaches, is that God, PRIOR to the dispensation of Grace (working with individuals), worked with ISRAEL as a nation, corporately, NOT as individuals.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The basic tenet of Pre-Conception Existence Theology is that we all existed as spirits in a spirit society BEFORE the creation of the physical universe which ALL the children of GOD saw, Job 38:7. During this time we all heard GOD's proclamation of Deity, HIS offer of marriage to us and the call to put our faith in HIM to be able to live as HIS bride or, by our free will, to put our faith against HIM as telling us lies and so to end in hell.

ImCo:
Everyone is a sinner when born into earthly human life by their own previous free will decisions. Iow, only sinners who became sinners by their free will, are sent to earth to work out their destiny...either the fulfillment of their election for their faith in YHWH as telling us the truth or as having repudiated HIM as a liar and therefore a false god, unworthy of worship.

Every person created in HIS image heard the gospel before earthly life, Col 1:23, so not hearing it as a human is moot.

What utter nonsense.

 

[JudgeRightly]

PCE theology suggests that HIS omniscience about our lives is due to HIS predestination of them to fulfill HIS promise of election or damnation after everyone made their free will uncoerced choices to accept HIM or to reject HIM.

HIS predestination of our lives did NOT create our fates but only predicted the content of our lives to fulfill HIS promises to HIS elect in perfect harmony with our free will decisions. We chose our fates, heaven or hell. HE chose to give us lives perfectly suited to each sinful but elect person to sanctify them, redeem them from their going astray into sin and to make them heaven ready to be HIS Bride by bringing them to full holiness as the parable of the weeds suggests.

Predestination is not causative of our fates but is predictive of our fates... We caused our own fates by our free will response to YHWH's proclamation of deity and what that meant for us.

Is God's omniscience about our lives fallible or infallible?

 

[Hoping]

Uh... what?

Mid-Acts Dispensation does in fact teach that God works with people on an individual level...

What it ALSO teaches, is that God, PRIOR to the dispensation of Grace (working with individuals), worked with ISRAEL as a nation, corporately, NOT as individuals.

You'ld have a tough time convincing Elijah, Noah, or Moses of that.

 

[ttruscott]

Is God's omniscience about our lives fallible or infallible?

It is infallible due to HIS predestinating our lives for us to achieve HIS purpose for us while in our self chosen state of big fallen.