Unconditional Election: True or False?

[Jerry Shugart]

The idea of "Unconditional Election" was invented by the Calvinists. Well known Calvinist teacher R.C. Sproul teaches that being chosen by God before the foundation of the world is not based on something foreseen in us:

"The grounds of our election are not something foreseen by God in us but rather the good pleasure of his sovereign will...Reformed theology insists that God's election is based on nothing foreseen in the individual's lives, this does not mean that he makes the choice for no reason at all. It simply means that the reason is not something found in us" [emphasis added] (R.C. Sproul, What is Reformed Theology? [Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2005], 146,147).​

The problem with this idea is the mistaken idea that a person can be "in Christ" but not yet saved:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).​

Once a person is "in Him" or "in Christ" he is saved:

"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim.2:10).​

So we can see that being chosen before the foundation of the world is in regard to salvation since the elect are chosen "in Him." In other words, no one can be chosen "in Him" unless salvation is secured.

Here we see exactly how the LORD chooses men for salvation:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Is there not even one Calvinists who will defend his belief in regard to Unconditional Election?

 

[Greek2Me]

I am just befuddled as to why Scripture presents the possibility that anyone COULD be saved if God has "predetermined" (in an absolute sense) who CAN and who cannot be redeemed. I find no rational meaning of the many verses expressing that "...the Lord is NOT willing that ANY should be perish..." (II Pet 3:9) or "Christ died, not for our sins only (Jews?), but for the sins of the WHOLE world" if "predestination" (as Calvinist present it). The logic of an Armenian position (redemption is provide TO all, but only accepted by some), while difficult to grasp, is the only position that includes ALL of Scripture coherently.

 

[jamie]

Our predestination is to the family of God and is open to all.

A famous person once said, "Ask and you will receive."

 

[beloved57]

The idea of "Unconditional Election" was invented by the Calvinists. Well known Calvinist teacher R.C. Sproul teaches that being chosen by God before the foundation of the world is not based on something foreseen in us:

"The grounds of our election are not something foreseen by God in us but rather the good pleasure of his sovereign will...Reformed theology insists that God's election is based on nothing foreseen in the individual's lives, this does not mean that he makes the choice for no reason at all. It simply means that the reason is not something found in us" [emphasis added] (R.C. Sproul, What is Reformed Theology? [Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2005], 146,147).​

The problem with this idea is the mistaken idea that a person can be "in Christ" but not yet saved:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).​

Once a person is "in Him" or "in Christ" he is saved:

"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim.2:10).​

So we can see that being chosen before the foundation of the world is in regard to salvation since the elect are chosen "in Him." In other words, no one can be chosen "in Him" unless salvation is secured.

Here we see exactly how the LORD chooses men for salvation:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

False comments not in scripture !

 

[beloved57]

Our predestination is to the family of God and is open to all.

A famous person once said, "Ask and you will receive."

False comment not found in scripture !

 

[Jerry Shugart]

False comments not in scripture !

If your idea about this matter is correct then point out what I said that is in error.

 

[beloved57]

If your idea about this matter is correct then point out what I said that is in error.

Jerry says

Once a person is "in Him" or "in Christ" he is saved:

"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim.2:10).​

That's not what 2 Tim 1:10 says

jerry says

So we can see that being chosen before the foundation of the world is in regard to salvation since the elect are chosen "in Him." In other words, no one can be chosen "in Him" unless salvation is secured.

This comment is not in scripture !

Here we see exactly how the LORD chooses men for salvation:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

This scripture isn't stating how God chose men. Its stating what He did ! You handle the word deceitfully !

 

[beloved57]

Gods Purpose of election of individuals is unconditional, its of Grace Rom 11:5-6. It doesn't take into consideration what is foreseen by God of the individual, because its before they are born, before they exist, a person cant do anything before they exist Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

This plainly states that Gods purpose of election was decided before the subjects are born, so then its not based upon any actions of theirs ! You have to be born and exist for that to be the case !

 

[Jerry Shugart]

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

This plainly states that Gods purpose of election was decided before the subjects are born, so then its not based upon any actions of theirs !

Of course you leave out the fact that the choosing in that verse is not in regard to salvation:

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger" (Ro.9:11-12).​

That's not what 2 Tim 1:10 says

That verse says no such thing. Do you really think that someone can be "in Christ" but not yet be saved?

This scripture isn't stating how God chose men. Its stating what He did ! You handle the word deceitfully !

So these words of Paul are not speaking how God chooses men to salvation?:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

 

[beloved57]

jerry

Of course you leave out the fact that the choosing in that verse is not in regard to salvation:

Where does Paul say that ?

 

[beloved57]

jerry

That verse says no such thing. Do you really think that someone can be "in Christ" but not yet be saved?

Dont know what you talking about. You made a comment, not found in 2 Tim 1:10 !

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Where does Paul say that ?

Right here in "bold":

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger" (Ro.9:11-12).​

Dont know what you talking about. You made a comment, not found in 2 Tim 1:10 !

That answers absolutely nothing about what I said about this verse:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).​

Once a person is "in Him" or "in Christ" he is saved:

"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim.2:10).​

So we can see that being chosen before the foundation of the world is in regard to salvation since the elect are chosen "in Him." In other words, no one can be chosen "in Him" unless salvation is secured.

So again I will ask you, Do you really think that someone can be "in Christ" but not yet be saved?

 

[beloved57]

jerry

The problem with this idea is the mistaken idea that a person can be "in Christ" but not yet saved:

Thats True, in this sense, the Elect are Saved in the Purpose of God by Grace given them in Christ before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

Who hath saved us[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif], and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but [/FONT]according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]​But yet the Elect are born in time Lost to any fellowship with God, they are born lost in Spiritual Death and Darkness and walk as other unregenerate lost sinners do by nature Eph 2:2-3, in fact they are born lost in enmity against God Rom 5:10, they need to be saved from an experimentally lost spiritual condition in which they are born into as sinners in the flesh. So in that sense, one can be in Christ, and yet needs to be saved from the power of sin ![/FONT]

 

[beloved57]

jerry

Right here in "bold":

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger" (Ro.9:11-12).​

That scripture doesn't say :

Of course you leave out the fact that the choosing in that verse is not in regard to salvation:

You obviously cant read !

 

[beloved57]

Right here in "bold":

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger" (Ro.9:11-12).​

That answers absolutely nothing about what I said about this verse:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).​

Once a person is "in Him" or "in Christ" he is saved:

"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim.2:10).​

So we can see that being chosen before the foundation of the world is in regard to salvation since the elect are chosen "in Him." In other words, no one can be chosen "in Him" unless salvation is secured.

So again I will ask you, Do you really think that someone can be "in Christ" but not yet be saved?

So I say again, false statements and handling the word of God deceitfully !

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Thats True, in this sense, the Elect are Saved in the Purpose of God by Grace given them in Christ before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

Who hath saved us[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif], and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but [/FONT]according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

It is through His foreknowledge that He knows who will believe:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

So I say again, false statements and handling the word of God deceitfully !

You can say it until you are blue in the face but the Scriptures reveal that what I say is correct.

 

[beloved57]

It is through His foreknowledge that He knows who will believe:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

False teaching !

 

[Epoisses]

Foreknowledge and predestination are always mentioned together in scripture. God chooses based on his perfect knowledge of the past, present and future which is not arbitrary. Peter said he was elect by the foreknowledge of God 1Pet. 1:2.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

False teaching !

Prove it!