nikolai_42
Well-known member
This post is primarily directed at those who believe in a pre-trib (secret) rapture - but anyone who wants to explain what they see here is welcome to respond. It's quite likely that this is a popular bone of contention, but I haven't run into it myself. I've never spent much time debating end times views.
There are two passages concerning eschatological events that are very similar but have one striking difference. It is this difference (primarily) that drives my question.
First, from Matthew 24, we have Jesus saying this :
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31
And...by comparison :
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 13:40-43
The first thing I note is that the Matthew 24 gathering is immediately AFTER the Tribulation. So if this is the rapture, it appears that Jesus Himself plainly says the rapture is post-trib.
The second thing I note is that the two passages differ primarily in one respect - Matthew 13 has the gathering of the wicked in view and Matthew 24 has the gathering of the elect in view. Both are done by Jesus' angels. So if Matthew 24 is really talking about the rapture (because the elect are taken) while Matthew 13 is the end of the world (as it is translated), then that again reinforces the post-trib proposition AND seems to cast doubt on the pre-trib assertion that Jesus doesn't really come to earth at the rapture but He DOES at the end of all things. In both passages above, Jesus is removed to some degree from what is happening. If He is, as the pre-trib position asserts (I believe), here in Matthew 13 but not in Matthew 24, then the way Jesus tells it, there is no difference in His locality between the two.
How do you handle both passages and the specific points I have brought up?
There are two passages concerning eschatological events that are very similar but have one striking difference. It is this difference (primarily) that drives my question.
First, from Matthew 24, we have Jesus saying this :
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31
And...by comparison :
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 13:40-43
The first thing I note is that the Matthew 24 gathering is immediately AFTER the Tribulation. So if this is the rapture, it appears that Jesus Himself plainly says the rapture is post-trib.
The second thing I note is that the two passages differ primarily in one respect - Matthew 13 has the gathering of the wicked in view and Matthew 24 has the gathering of the elect in view. Both are done by Jesus' angels. So if Matthew 24 is really talking about the rapture (because the elect are taken) while Matthew 13 is the end of the world (as it is translated), then that again reinforces the post-trib proposition AND seems to cast doubt on the pre-trib assertion that Jesus doesn't really come to earth at the rapture but He DOES at the end of all things. In both passages above, Jesus is removed to some degree from what is happening. If He is, as the pre-trib position asserts (I believe), here in Matthew 13 but not in Matthew 24, then the way Jesus tells it, there is no difference in His locality between the two.
How do you handle both passages and the specific points I have brought up?