Turbo's pick 6/25/2005

[Turbo]

The words of Christ on the cross to His Father;
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
Did that mean;
"Father forgive them, but only if they repent first. For they know not what they do."?
Interested in someone giving their idea on this. I am reading this thread with great interest.

Personally, I don't think the scripture you cited above has anything to do with Biblical forgiveness. That Scripture purely had to do with Jesus asking God to forgive them for not realizing that they were killing God. I think we would be reading too much into it to take it any farther than that.

I think we should ask for forgiveness whenever we sin. If we have sinned against our brother, we need to ask for God's forgiveness and then for our brother's forgiveness. However, I do think it's Biblical to not forgive our brother for having sinned against us if our brother remains unrepentant. I think it's unloving to forgive someone who remains in their sin. What is that teaching your brother?

Look at it this way: If your son or daughter disobeyed you, which is clearly sin, would you just overlook this willfull disobedience and forgive them for it? Or, would you confront their sin, show them how what they did was sin and that it harmed you, and tell them that they needed to ask for your forgiveness?

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CONTEXT

 

[SOTK]

Thanks, Turbo!

It looks like Rimi is doing pretty well on that subject as well in that thread! :up:

 

[Turbo]

Yeah, I gave her reps a couple times today. Rimi is awesome!

 

[billwald]

Originally Posted by julie21

The words of Christ on the cross to His Father;
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Heard a lecture by S. Lewis Johnson on this text. He said it meant "delay punishment."

 

[Turbo]

Originally Posted by julie21

The words of Christ on the cross to His Father;
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Heard a lecture by S. Lewis Johnson on this text. He said it meant "delay punishment."

That makes no sense.

 

[julie21]

So Turbo and SOTK...neither of your individual sins helped put Christ on the cross then?

 

[SOTK]

Julie, I posted the following in the other thread:

No, this is the instance where Biblical forgiveness was set:

"Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him." Luke 17:3-4

Isn't the above scripture pretty cut and dry? I don't understand why so many people in this thread are overlooking this. The above scripture is a direct quote from Jesus Himself.

The reason why I stated that "we are reading too much into the words of Christ to the Father" is because Christ was directly asking for forgiveness for particular peoples at that particular time. I do not think that Jesus was asking the Father to forgive everyone who existed in the World at that point in time nor was He asking the Father to forgive people who didn't exist. He was asking for "real time" forgiveness. Jesus was asking for direct forgiveness for the people who were directly responsible for His death.

Julie, was Mary, His mother, responsible for His actual death? Were the Apostle's directly responsible for His death? Were all the people He healed and performed miracle's on directly responsible for His death? How about John the Baptist? Was he responsible for His death?

Jesus did indeed die for my sins! You are absolutely correct! He died for me, you, and our neighbors. I am not disputing that. What I am saying is that I was not directly responsible for murdering Him. There were certain people who did do this and Jesus asked the Father to "forgive them because they did not know what they were doing". He was asking the Father for something particular.

I am "responsive" to what He said in Luke 17:3-4. This is the scripture where we were instructed on how to forgive.

Julie, did you or did you not repent of your sins before accepting the Grace of Jesus Christ? In other words, didn't you more than likely face the Lord in repentance before becoming a Born Again Christian? Or, did you feel like this was not necessary because you had already been forgiven and didn't need to repent of anything?

Cite

So Turbo and SOTK...neither of your individual sins helped put Christ on the cross then?

Julie,

Christ died for my sins. I don't think anybody who disagrees with your position is disputing that. I know that I certainly don't! I did not put Christ on the cross and kill Him. This fact does nothing to take away from the atoning blood of Jesus Christ and that He personally died for me so that I may be reconciled to God and live. I am a totally depraved human being and do not deserve what He did for me. It is by Grace that I am saved!

 

[billwald]

"Delay punishment" makes perfect sense. Jesus is asking for God to give them time to repent.

Christ died for the sins of the world. If I had comitted one less sin then Jesus would NOT have hurt less.

 

[Turbo]

"Delay punishment" makes perfect sense. Jesus is asking for God to give them time to repent.

No it doesn't, because it's not what Jesus said at all.

No, Jesus asked that those killing him be forgiven for what they did not know they were doing, namely, murdering their Creator.

To accept the convoluted interpretation you offered one would need to utterly redefine (re: cheapen) the meaning of forgiveness.

 

[Nineveh]

Awsome pick Turbo, awsome post SOTK

Both SOTK and Rimi are doing a great job on that thread

 

[billwald]

If you are fluent in Greek and Aramaic then I will defer to you.


Then by inference either the Roman soldiers are in Heaven or the forgiveness was temporary or marginal or pointless.

 

[Turbo]

If you are fluent in Greek and Aramaic then I will defer to you.

I am not, but those who have translated our Bibles are. Do you really think it's a reasonable to think that every Bible translator made the exact same glaring mistake but S. Lewis Johnson has it right?

Then by inference either the Roman soldiers are in Heaven or the forgiveness was temporary or marginal or pointless.

No, it means that they wouldn't be punished for murdering God, which is what they did not know they were doing. Not everyone who is in hell suffers equally because some people are worse sinners than others.

[jesus]And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.[/jesus] Luke 12:47-48

Then Pilate said to Him, "Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?"
Jesus answered, [jesus]"You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin." [/jesus] John 19:10-11

You who judged your sisters, bear your own shame also, because the sins which you committed were more abominable than theirs; they are more righteous than you. Yes, be disgraced also, and bear your own shame, because you justified your sisters. Ezekiel 16:52

[jesus]"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves."[/jesus] Mat. 23:14-15

[jesus]"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you."[/jesus] Mat. 11:21-24

In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, "I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow." Rev. 18:7​

Fortunately for these men, they will not be burdened for all eternity with the sin of Deicide, but they will still be judged for their other sins if they died without turning to the Lord.

 

[SOTK]

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