Turbo's pick 6-06-05

[Turbo]

Let's look at Clete's question from a slightly different angle.

If God tells Clete that in 20 minutes he will be involved in a car accident where he runs into a light pole and as a result break both his legs, does he have the option of staying out of his car for the next two hours?

I would say that he does have the option of staying out of his car for the next 2 hours. In this example...God telling him would change the outcome, not telling him wouldn't. Knowledge changes things.
Another curious effect of this that staying out of his car for 2 hours only moves the future into the unknown again...while avoiding being in an accident and breaking his legs, he wouldn't know what will happen.

You're saying that God could tell me something very specific that was going to happen (prophecy) and that thing, because God said it, may not happen? This is even more radical than anything I've ever heard an Open Theist say. The fulfillment of prophecy is put in jeopardy by the fact that God uttered it. Wow! Are you sure this is what you believe?

Resting in Him,
Clete

:BRAVO: Awesome point! :first:


CONTEXT

 

[Clete]

Thanks Turbo!

 

[erinmarie]

:thumb:

 

[Crow]

:up:

 

[Turbo]

[Divine] Intervention may change the causal path, it no doubt does. But then a new causal sequence emerges, and this sequence, again is not beyond the knowledge of God.

Separated from the rest of your comments, perhaps it is easier to see the conflict in your thought process here. Intervention is itself caused by something, right? And so even the intervention is part of the original causal chain and no real intervention has taken place. The causal chain of events is completely in tact, it just looks like it has been interupted by divine intervention. The only way that this might not be the case is if God is not subject to causality. And if He is not subject to causality and we are made in His image, why do you insist that we must be?

:second: This is a highlight from this post.

 

[logos_x]

:BRAVO: Awesome point! :first:


CONTEXT

Are you saying, then, that OUR wills have NO effect?
Is that what you believe?

 

[Turbo]

Are you saying, then, that OUR wills have NO effect?

No, I am not.

Is that what you believe?

Not at all.

 

[logos_x]

No, I am not.

Not at all.

OK.

 

[Clete]

Do you get it now Logos?

 

[logos_x]

I get it.

But...in light of "high confidence" not being "knowledge"...how would my answer actually be wrong?
High confidence would not be "prophecy". Being told something God had high confidence was going to happen would give you options you didn't have before.