Tolerance vs Godliness

Nineveh

Merely Christian
A druidic "women's eucharist" and a "divorce rite," both posted on the Episcopal Church's official Web site, have outraged Episcopal conservatives.

The "eucharist," subtitled "A Celebration of the Divine Feminine," was posted Oct. 8 on the denomination's Office of Women's Ministries page at dfms.org. It invoked "Mother God" and used a lighted candle, a vase of flowers, a chalice of sweet red wine, a cup of milk and money and a plate of raisin cakes to invoke images of sexuality, fertility and birth.

The rite was attributed to the Rev. Glyn Lorraine Ruppe Melnyk, the pastor of St. Francis in the Fields Episcopal Church in Malvern, Pa.

She and her husband, Bill Melnyk, rector of St. James Episcopal Church in Downingtown, Pa., posted several ceremonies, which invoked pagan gods and goddesses, on tuathadebrighid. org.

One, an "erotic ritual" for the spring festival of Beltane, used Christian phrases for the rite, including an opening "litany" and an "invocation" of the "Earth Mother." The ceremony, which culminates with the lead couple engaging in sex in front of the other participants, ends with a "chant of Communion and Praise" to the tune of the Irish hymn "St. Patrick's Breastplate." The Babylonian god "Bel" honored in the rite has been linked to the Canaanite god Baal, whose worship was condemned in the Old Testament.

A "Eucharist to our Mother Goddess" ritual on the site — which since has been removed — is the same "women's eucharist" that was posted on the Episcopal Church's Web site. Starting last Tuesday, this and the "divorce rite," which includes a Lord's Prayer that refers to God as "You who are Mother and Father to us all," were denounced on several Episcopalian Web sites.

Christianity Today declared that the Episcopal Church is "promoting pagan rites to pagan deities."

"And not just any new pagan deities," wrote Ted Olsen, the magazines' online managing editor. "The Episcopal Church ... is actually promoting the worship of idols specifically condemned in Scripture."

The Episcopal Diocese of Pennsylvania on Friday released a statement promising to investigate "extremely serious" charges that Mr. and Mrs. Melnyk are practicing Druids and have violated their ordination vows.

But Bishop Charles Bennison Jr. said the two priests have "contributed positively" to the diocese for four years, adding, "I will not allow this situation to turn into a witch hunt of any sort."

The "eucharist" was one of nine resources listed on the women's ministries page as part of a "Women's Liturgy Project" touted Oct. 25 by Episcopal News Service as a way of "honoring a woman's life passages and experiences" including "menstruation, menopause, conception, pregnancy, any form of pregnancy loss, childbirth, forms of leave taking, and many others."

The release invited Episcopalians to download the "worship resources" for use either on Sunday mornings or "any other appropriate setting where the honoring of a woman's life passages and experiences beckons a liturgical response."

However, the divorce and eucharist rites were removed from the church's Web site after church headquarters began receiving complaints.

The Rev. Margaret Rose, director of the denomination's Women's Ministries office, issued a statement on Thursday saying divorce and women's eucharist rites were not approved Episcopal liturgies, but were listed only "to spark dialogue, study and conversation and ponderings around women and our liturgical tradition."

The "women's eucharist," she said in an interview was written by Mrs. Melnyk for a parish study group of women.

"It was written in response to their alienation," she said. "It was not claiming to be a Christian eucharist, but it was a way to look at their own religious traditions and explore them. We don't desire to replace the Sunday liturgy in any way. They wrote it to see what it would feel like to have specifically feminine images."

Mrs. Melnyk also is known on Druid Web sites as "Glispa" or "Raven." Mr. Melnyk, who goes by several druidic names, including "Oakwyse" and "Druis," had posted messages and rituals at druidnetwork.org, druidry.org and other sites. cite

As if Episcopalians don't have enough on their plate...


"honoring a woman's life passages and experiences" including "menstruation, menopause, conception, pregnancy, any form of pregnancy loss, childbirth, forms of leave taking, and many others."

How is this part of Godly worship? What is outright blatent is this part, "any form of pregnancy loss". They want to "honor" abortion?

"But Bishop Charles Bennison Jr. said the two priests have "contributed positively" to the diocese for four years, adding, "I will not allow this situation to turn into a witch hunt of any sort.""

Mr. Bennison thinks as long as these folks are "positive" they are just fine. Even if they are bringing outright paganism into the Episcopal church. No, he doesn't want a "witch hunt" even when the witches are staring him in the face and preaching from Episcopal pulpits. Sitting ducks don't make for much of a hunt.
 

Gerald

Resident Fiend
Re: Tolerance vs Godliness

Originally posted by Nineveh
No, he doesn't want a "witch hunt" even when the witches are staring him in the face and preaching from Episcopal pulpits. Sitting ducks don't make for much of a hunt.
Cool! We haven't had a good burning at the stake in a couple centuries!

Now, where'd I leave my Zippo™...? :chuckle:
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
I seriously doubt there will be a burnin'. The way things seem to be going for the Episcopalians they might get promoted.
 

PureX

Well-known member
It's sad that tolerance is now being seen as antithetical to Godliness. Especially so, when we realize that tolerance is an essential component of human freedom. To view God as intolerant is to view God as being antithetical to human freedom. This is the fermenting of an idea that can only lead to terrible oppression and mysery. But Christians seem to be dead-set these days on such a violent and destructive course.
 

Gerald

Resident Fiend
Originally posted by Nineveh
I seriously doubt there will be a burnin'. The way things seem to be going for the Episcopalians they might get promoted.
But you'd enjoy seeing one...wouldn't you?:chuckle:
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Nineveh,

Why does it bother you what the "Whiskeypalians" are doing? Aren't you fundamentally against their entire structure and most of their doctrine anyway?

(The reference to "Mr. Bennison" instead of Bishop Bennison was a dead giveaway.)

:think:
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Originally posted by PureX

It's sad that tolerance is now being seen as antithetical to Godliness. Especially so, when we realize that tolerance is an essential component of human freedom. To view God as intolerant is to view God as being antithetical to human freedom. This is the fermenting of an idea that can only lead to terrible oppression and mysery. But Christians seem to be dead-set these days on such a violent and destructive course.

impurex, are you even on this thread or was that a cut and paste from another of you ignorant diatribes?
 

One Eyed Jack

New member
Originally posted by PureX

It's sad that tolerance is now being seen as antithetical to Godliness. Especially so, when we realize that tolerance is an essential component of human freedom. To view God as intolerant is to view God as being antithetical to human freedom. This is the fermenting of an idea that can only lead to terrible oppression and mysery. But Christians seem to be dead-set these days on such a violent and destructive course.

Ok, Chicken Little -- I think it's time to come back to reality now.
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Originally posted by Zakath

Nineveh,

Why does it bother you what the "Whiskeypalians" are doing? Aren't you fundamentally against their entire structure and most of their doctrine anyway?

(The reference to "Mr. Bennison" instead of Bishop Bennison was a dead giveaway.)

:think:

LOL don't read too much into my laziness, doc :)

Anyway, I would have to say, in answer to your question, I'm for any step in the right direction regardless of denom. Like the African Episcopals for example.

Edit: Oops that was African Anglicans.
 
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Gerald

Resident Fiend
Originally posted by On Fire
Do you run on batteries?
Nope, a plutonium-powered RTG (radioisotope thermoelectric generator, for those playing along at home), guaranteed for 500 years or 500 million miles, whichever comes first.

:chuckle:
 

Gerald

Resident Fiend
Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

Like the energizer bunny, he is. Or maybe more like Frank from Donnie Darko...
A lot of Christians seem to really like that movie.

I can't for the life of me figure out why.

Must be the end-of-the-world thing...
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

Like the energizer bunny, he is. Or maybe more like Frank from Donnie Darko...
Or possibly "Chuckie" from those silly horror movies... :shocked:
 

Chileice

New member
Originally posted by PureX

It's sad that tolerance is now being seen as antithetical to Godliness. Especially so, when we realize that tolerance is an essential component of human freedom. To view God as intolerant is to view God as being antithetical to human freedom. This is the fermenting of an idea that can only lead to terrible oppression and mysery. But Christians seem to be dead-set these days on such a violent and destructive course.

Trying to move this thread to where I hoped it would be going...
What is the correlation between love and tolerance? It certainly exists but love is greater than tolerance. Many times the loving thing to do is to NOT tolerate the behaviour of the other person. Although I am a generally strong supporter of tolerance, tolerance has its limits: in a family, in the workplace or in a church for that matter. Purex, those who want to perform Druid rites certainly have a right to do so. But to usurp the long-standing traditions of a church to do so do seem extreme. Why can't those people go off and start their own group instead of trying to force their minority view on a group of people gathered for the worship of the Lord as they see fit?

You are right about Nineveh. She certainly doesn't care about the Anglican tradition. But those who have been a part of the Episcolpalian/Anglican/Church of England tradition do. It always seems to be a few who are the tail that wags the dog. True "christian" harmony and good manners would take their beliefs somewhere else.
 

Gerald

Resident Fiend
Originally posted by Zakath
Or possibly "Chuckie" from those silly horror movies... :shocked:
Oh, please!

Nothing but Bela Lugosi, Boris Karloff and Lon Chaney for me, thanks.
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Originally posted by Chileice

Trying to move this thread to where I hoped it would be going...
What is the correlation between love and tolerance? It certainly exists but love is greater than tolerance. Many times the loving thing to do is to NOT tolerate the behaviour of the other person.

You mean, judge when tolerance ends in the name of love?

Although I am a generally strong supporter of tolerance, tolerance has its limits: in a family, in the workplace or in a church for that matter.

What about God's limits? I hope we agree the Episcopal church is a house of God. Shouldn't what God says have bearing on what is and is not tolerated in His house (or rather a house dedicated to Him)?

Purex, those who want to perform Druid rites certainly have a right to do so.

Would you share the Gospel with them? If so, please tell me what you would say.

But to usurp the long-standing traditions of a church to do so do seem extreme.

Is tradition the standard by which you make your judgement as to when tolerance should end in the name of love?

Why can't those people go off and start their own group instead of trying to force their minority view on a group of people gathered for the worship of the Lord as they see fit?

Do you really want that answered?

You are right about Nineveh. She certainly doesn't care about the Anglican tradition.

By what do you judge I do not care about Anglicans?

But those who have been a part of the Episcolpalian/Anglican/Church of England tradition do.

Do you see it as a good or a bad thing the Episcolpalian/Anglican church threatens a split over sodomy? Do you agree or disagree with Bishop Bennison.

It always seems to be a few who are the tail that wags the dog. True "christian" harmony and good manners would take their beliefs somewhere else.

Which is more important to you? Harmony or Truth?

(by the way, why not just address me instead of refer to me second hand? lol)
 
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