toldailytopic: In your opinion, what's the ONE worst thing about capitalism?

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Nathon Detroit

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The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for November 9th, 2010 11:26 AM


toldailytopic: In your opinion, what's the ONE worst thing about capitalism?






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Nydhogg

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Modern capitalism, you mean?

Being a fake free market, where the rich and corporations are consistently able to get privileges, subsidies, and State assistance in enforcing their thuggery.

Without a State it'd work better, I think.
 

The Graphite

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The fact that it isn't everywhere in the world, "with liberty and justice for all."

Nyd, corporate welfare is heinous from any genuine conservative's point of view, and is NOT capitalism. It is antithetical to capitalism, and is a left-wing practice.
 

Newman

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There is absolutely nothing wrong about free-market capitalism. There's nothing inherently "good" about it either. It has just as much capability of fostering selfishness and it does selflessness.

Yet, even when it is fueled by greed, people are fed, clothed, housed, and taken care of. One man's self-interest is another man's benefit.

It's just a system that maximizes the incentives for people that offer something that society values.
 

MrRadish

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The way in which selfish people/corporations - or at least those motivated solely by profit - will almost always do better than those with concerns over ethics/fairness/selling things for what they're worth and not just what the market will bear.

That and the fact that its proponents seem to view working as being inherently more moral than not working.

Oh, and also the fact that it rewards naturally able people while leaving behind those to whom fortune has dealt a weaker hand, and yet still has the gall to call itself 'fair'.
 

Krsto

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It takes money to make money so if you have a brilliant idea and no capital you might be forced to borrow money at interest which can suck the life out of the business venture before it really has a chance to take off.
 

zoo22

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Corporate "personhood" jumps to mind.

So does greed, but while greed is what I consider the biggest problem involved in capitalism, capitalism doesn't have to include greed, and I consider greed as something much larger.
 
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Buzzword

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Greed.
Selfishness.
Ruthless ambition.

But moreso, the subtle indoctrination that one HAS to have all of the above to be called "successful" in at least American capitalism.

Thus we have an entire generation (the immediately-after-the-baby-boomers) who, properly and carefully taught, sacrificed their passions and sense of self by enslaving themselves to pursuit of the almighty dollar, and now experience the inevitable backlash of "mid-life crises," when their personalities quite naturally and violently react against decades of violation with depression and a complete bottoming-out of self-worth.

It happened to their parents before them, as well.
 

Newman

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To those that answered "greed": where is it?

Surely there are greedy people who are only interested in accumulating wealth for themselves, but do you really think that most people act in a free market system out of greed?

Hear me out:

1) When you buy groceries, gas, a house, a car, etc. aren't you fulfilling needs for yourself and your family? You need food to live, a car and gas to get to work and to get kids to school and whatnot, shelter from the elements and a place for your kids to call "home"...

Yes, we all have things that we don't need, namely things that we want, and I guess you could call that greed, but is it because of free markets that you are greedy? Does it help you be greedy? I would say no. Greed is a part of being human, not a part of a system of dealing with scarcity without central government planning, i.e., a free market.

2) Even if I grant you the "greed" stance, what do you think about how both people involved in a voluntary exchange benefit?

Person A may be extremely greedy and just wants piles of money in which to take a bath. Person B is just your average Joe that needs to put bacon on the table for his family. In order for A to get B's money, A has to offer B some bacon at a price that competes with other bacon-providers. So you see here that every single thing that some greedy person owns came to him as a part of a voluntary exchange (only in a free market is this possible) and therefore has a counterpart somewhere in the rest of the economy that is/was valued by the person that made the exchange.

You can think about it this way, too: Bill Gates is filthy rich. The only reason he is rich is because he offered something that society really valued. There is a lot more total wealth in the economy, Bill Gates excluded, because of his technology. Every person that bought a PC bought one because they valued the money they handed over for it less than the PC Bill Gates offered for sale. So every single dollar he earned in those sales represents an extra increment of value for the rest of society.
 

Traditio

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It presupposes a belief that everything is a commodity, that everything has a price. It sets up money/wealth to be perceived as the summum bonum. But if you really think about it, money actually is quite worthless. It only has value when you're giving it away.
 

Traditio

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Every person that bought a PC bought one because they valued the money they handed over for it less than the PC Bill Gates offered for sale. So every single dollar he earned in those sales represents an extra increment of value for the rest of society.

Human beings are finite/limited rational agents. They may indeed have valued the money to be equal to or less than the value of the computer. Nonetheless, their value judgments may have been wrong. Your argument only can work if you suppose that human beings are perfect prudential calculators and that there is a complete lack of exploitation/deceit/etc. If you don't assume even one of those things, your argument falls apart.
 

Newman

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Human beings are finite/limited rational agents. They may indeed have valued the money to be equal to or less than the value of the computer. Nonetheless, their value judgments may have been wrong. Your argument only can work if you suppose that human beings are perfect prudential calculators and that there is a complete lack of exploitation/deceit/etc. If you don't assume even one of those things, your argument falls apart.

No I'm completely aware that sometimes the things we think we are buying turn out to be not what we thought. This does not happen often, though. Think about your transactions in a month. How many of them do you regret? Most of my transactions are gas, food, rent, and utilities. When I do buy something other than those, I try to read up on it and make sure I'm buying what I want, with a reasonable amount of research/and reduced risk. I hope others do the same. Almost all store products are returnable anyways.

Deceit falls into a different category. When you buy something and there was some sort of substantial difference between what was advertised and what you actually got, then I would call that a violation of a contract, which should be, and is, a legitimately enforceable rule in a free market. That and private property rights are really the only places I could see a legitimate amount of government involvement in the economy.
 

steko

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Greed is a personal human problem, not a flaw in an impersonal economic system.
Greed is found in the human heart, no matter what government or economic system one looks at.
Behaviorism says that an ideal environment can produce a flawless man. Bullhockey!
The worst problem with capitalism is 'man', and having no objective standard of morality and no sense of shame.
Only men and women acting with a sense of personal responsiblility and loving accountability to one another can make the system of capitalism work.
 

Traditio

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No I'm completely aware that sometimes the things we think we are buying turn out to be not what we thought. This does not happen often, though. Think about your transactions in a month. How many of them do you regret? Most of my transactions are gas, food, rent, and utilities. When I do buy something other than those, I try to read up on it and make sure I'm buying what I want, with a reasonable amount of research/and reduced risk. I hope others do the same. Almost all store products are returnable anyways.

Deceit falls into a different category. When you buy something and there was some sort of substantial difference between what was advertised and what you actually got, then I would call that a violation of a contract, which should be, and is, a legitimately enforceable rule in a free market. That and private property rights are really the only places I could see a legitimate amount of government involvement in the economy.

I don't think you understand my position. I don't have in mind the extraordinary cases of misjudgment, deceit, etc. I'm talking about the every day transactions. If I work for 8 hours and get paid x amount, comparing the x amount to what that roughly correlates in purchasing power, I've esteemed that my labor and the x amount are roughly equal in value, or otherwise, I've esteemed that my labor is worth less.

Well, presupposing a vacuum, and presupposing that I were a perfect rational calculator, and the transaction were conceived solely in itself in isolation, then indeed, my estimation would be a solid one.

But that's not what happens, is it? The transaction occurs under competitive market conditions according to agents who are performing the transaction with a capitalist mindset. As a matter of fact, it's clearly evident that my estimation, under these conditions, is bound to be wrong at some point. Because of any extraordinary flaw in my judgment? No. Something completely commonplace in a capitalist economy: price fluxuation.

A boss will, on occassion, give me a raise, and that raise may or may not be related to inflation. Well...was my work any more or less valuable the moment before I got the raise than after, considered in itself? No, my work remains the same. Did I make an error of judgment in selling my labor at too low a price when it was worth more? Did the employer make an error of judgment in paying me more when my labor was worth less?

Another example: The moment after the Playstation 3 came out, it cost x. A year later, it cost x-y, where y is the difference between its initial cost and its cost a year later. Did the value of the Playstation 3, considered in itself, change? No, the Playstation 3 remained the same in both cases, presumably. Yes, yes, the Playstation 3 underwent certain changes, but I don't think that these changes had anything to do with the price.

Well...no...neither. Market prices don't reflect actual value. They only reflect market conditions. When I make an estimation of value, I'm not estimating actual value to me. I'm merely estimating the market conditions. I'll purchase the milk for $3.50 a gallon, not because it's worth so much of my work or because it cost that much to produce it, but because I can't find it any cheaper. Again, the milk producers sell the milk for $3.50 a gallon, not because they esteem that the milk is worth so much of my labor or because it cost them that much to make it, but because they esteemed that $3.50 is the most for which they would be able to sell it.

As a matter of fact, I think that deceit/exploitation/etc. more or less are built into the capitalist system, and that's because capitalism is based on one big lie: that a human being (or his labor) has a price tag.
 
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