They pierced my hands and my feet - Psalm 22:16b
- Thread starter beameup
- Start date
oatmeal
Well-known member
What a wonderful God we have!
The son that God would later have, a son he had foreknown from the beginning, would need all the help he could get to do what God wanted and needed him to do.
God, hundreds of years before Jesus beginning, his conception and birth, had truths written down for His son's sake so that he could prepare himself spiritually, mentally and physically for the excruciating order before him.
The courage and conviction of Jesus Christ to humbly and lovingly obey his God and Father is beyond my understanding.
Jesus Christ put and kept God first and esteemed the well being of others above himself.
Philippians 2:1-18
If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
17 Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.
18 For the same cause also do ye joy, and rejoice with me.
The son that God would later have, a son he had foreknown from the beginning, would need all the help he could get to do what God wanted and needed him to do.
God, hundreds of years before Jesus beginning, his conception and birth, had truths written down for His son's sake so that he could prepare himself spiritually, mentally and physically for the excruciating order before him.
The courage and conviction of Jesus Christ to humbly and lovingly obey his God and Father is beyond my understanding.
Jesus Christ put and kept God first and esteemed the well being of others above himself.
Philippians 2:1-18
If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
17 Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.
18 For the same cause also do ye joy, and rejoice with me.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
To begin with; the Psalms are not prophetic writings. Also Psalm 22 does not claim to prophesize about the messiah. It is nowhere written: The messiah will come and he will call out during his execution: My God, my God, why did you forsake me? This is king David speaking about himself. This Psalm is written mainly in the past tense, and describes the tribulations King David went through. But, as shown before, the authentic messianic prophecies are NOT fulfilled by Jesus, and therefore Christianity has to resort to Biblical texts that have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, and present them as messianic prophecies. Because of the fact that, according the NT, Jesus quoted Psalms during his execution, the Christians claim that this Psalm must be a prophecy about the messiah. An upside down proof based upon nothing. And even that is not enough. In order to make it a little more authentic Christianity squeezed in the infamous falsification about the “piercing of hand and feet”. See verse 16: “Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet.” They say: “Look! Here is the crucifixion, prophesized in the Psalms!”
Point one: It is not written here that that the hands and feet of the messiah would be pierced. Like I pointed out: King David speaks here about himself, and that in the past tense. And on top of that: there is no such a thing as “they pierced my hand an feet”. The Hebrew word that is here translated as 'pierced' is 'ka'arie'. There is no word that even comes close to ka'arie that means piercing. To call this a mistranslation is too euphemistic, we should call this just what it is; another Christian falsification of their Bible translations, in order to squeeze in JC. The word that comes the closest is 'karah', but it is impossible to fit that in here, because that would violate almost every rule in the Hebrew grammar. And besides that, karah does not mean piercing, but 'to dig up, to bring up from the ground' (in the sense of mining)
The Hebrew prefix 'ka' means: 'as the', and the Hebrew word 'arie' means 'lion'. So what it says here is: "Like the lion [they are at] my hands and feet." The text between the square brackets is my insertion. So King David, who is not prophesizing about the messiah here, is speaking about a lion, and not about piercing hands and feet. The same lion he speaks about in verse 13 and 21.
Also the modern day Bible translations translate this in the wrong way. I could find only one Christian Bible translation who translates this verse in the right way, and that is the translation of the Y-H-V-H witnesses. But at least the modern Bible translations have the decency to write that there is no such thing in the Hebrew text.
My edition of the Revised Standard Version has a footnote with the word pierced in verse 16, it says there: "Gk Syr Jerome: Heb like a lion" That means that the translators get the word “pierced” from the ancient Greek translation; the Septuaginth, and from the Syriac translation, and from the Vulgata, the Catholic translation of the Bible into Latin, made by Jerome, on the request of Pope Damascus, in 328 CE. But this: “Heb like a lion” means that they admit that in the Hebrew is written: Like a lion.
Here is the footnote of the New American Standard Bible Update (1995): "Another reading is like a lion, my..."
And here is the footnote of the New International Version: "Some Hebrew manuscripts, Septuagint and Syriac; most Hebrew manuscripts: 'like the lion,"
What the Bible translators are doing here is ignoring the original Hebrew Bible, and translating translations instead, because that fits the Christian theology better.
But the exact same word "ka'arie" is used in Isaiah 38:13. This claim can be checked out by people who cannot read Hebrew, by means of the Christian Hebrew-English interlinear, that is a Hebrew text of the Tanach, (OT), with under each word an English translation. Provided by a Christian institution. Look here: www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm and look there how it is translated there. It is possible to zoom into the text.
On the right side of the Hebrew text is a normal English translation. Now look at the discrepancy between how the Hebrew is translated right underneath, and how it is translated in the text on the right side. VERY educational!
And look here how the English translations translate the word "ka'arie" in Isaiah 38:11;
New International Version “I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones;”
ew American Standard Bible: “I composed my soul until morning. Like a lion--so He breaks all my bones,”
The Message: “I cry for help until morning. Like a lion, God pummels and pounds me,”
Amplified Bible: “I thought and quieted myself until morning. Like a lion He breaks all my bones;”
New Living Translation: “I waited patiently all night, but I was torn apart as though by lions.”
King James Version: “I reckoned till morning, that, as a lion, so will he break all my bones:”
English Standard Version: “I calmed myself until morning; like a lion he breaks all my bones;”
Contemporary English Version: “Until morning came, I thought you would crush my bones just like a hungry lion;”
New King James Version: “ I have considered until morning-- Like a lion, So He breaks all my bones;”
New Century Version: "I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones"
21st Century King James Version: “I reckoned till morning that, as a lion, so will He break all my bones;”
American Standard Version: “I quieted myself until morning; as a lion, so he breaketh all my bones:”
Young's Literal Translation: “I have set [Him] till morning as a lion, So doth He break all my bones,”
Darby Translation: “I kept still until the morning; ... as a lion, so doth he break all my bones.”
Revised Standard version: “I cry for help until morning; like a lion he breaks all my bones;”
Another place where we see the word "ka'arie" is in Numbers 24:9. See here how it is there translated:
New International Version “Like a lion they crouch and lie down"
New American Standard Bible: “He crouches, he lies down as a lion"
The Message: “Israel crouches like a lion and naps"
Amplified Bible: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"
New Living Translation: “Like a lion, Israel crouches and lies down"
King James Version: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"
English Standard Version: “He crouched, he lay down like a lion"
Contemporary English Version: “Like a lion you lie down"
New King James Version: “He bows down, he lies down as a lion"
New Century Version: “Like a lion, they lie waiting to attack"
21th Century King James Version: "He couched, he lay down as a lion"
American Standard Version: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"
Young's Literal Translation: “He hath bent, he hath lain down as a lion"
Darby Translation: “He stooped, he lay down like a lion"
Revised Standard version: “He couched, he lay down like a lion"
Also in Ezechiel 22:25 we encounter the same word "ka'arie", followed by the word "sho'eig", which means "roaring".
See here how that is translated:Ezekiel 22:25 KJ21
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey.
Ezekiel 22:25 ASV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey:
Ezekiel 22:25 AMP
There is a conspiracy of [Israel’s false] prophets in the midst of her, like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 CEB
The conspiracy of princes in her is like a roaring lion ripping up prey.
Ezekiel 22:25 CJB
There is a conspiracy of prophets in it like a roaring lion tearing up the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 CEV
Their leaders are like roaring lions, tearing apart their victims.
Ezekiel 22:25 DARBY
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst of her like a roaring lion ravening the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 DRA
There is a conspiracy of prophets in the midst thereof: like a lion that roareth and catcheth the prey,
Ezekiel 22:25 ERV
The prophets in Jerusalem are making evil plans. They are like a lion—it roars when it begins to eat the animal it
caught.
Ezekiel 22:25 ESV
The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 ESVUK
The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 EXB
Like a roaring lion that tears ·the animal it has caught [its prey], Israel’s ·rulers [princes] ·make evil plans [conspire].
Ezekiel 22:25 GNV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof like a roaring lion, ravening the prey:
Ezekiel 22:25 GW
Your princes are like roaring lions who tear their prey into pieces.
Ezekiel 22:25 GNT
The leaders are like lions roaring over the animals they have killed.
Ezekiel 22:25 HCSB
The conspiracy of her prophets within her is like a roaring lion tearing its prey:
Ezekiel 22:25 KJV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 AKJV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey;
Ezechiel 22: KNOX
What of the prophets? A sworn conspiracy; lions roaring for their prey, the lives of men;
Ezekiel 22:25 LEB
The conspiracy of its prophets in the midst of her is like a roaring lion that is tearing prey.
Ezekiel 22:2523- MSG
*The leaders among you became desperate, like roaring, ravaging lions killing indiscriminately.
Ezekiel 22:25 NOG
Your princes are like roaring lions who tear their prey into pieces.
Ezekiel 22:25 NASB
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in her midst like a roaring lion tearing the prey.
Ezekiel 22:25 NCV
Like a roaring lion that tears the animal it has caught, Israel’s rulers make evil plans.
Ezekiel 22:25 NET
Her princes within her are like a roaring lion tearing its prey; they have devoured lives.
Ezekiel 22:25 NIRV
“Ezekiel, the princes of the land are like a roaring lion that tears its food apart.
Ezekiel 22:25 NIV
There is a conspiracy of her princes within her like a roaring lion tearing its prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 NIVUK
There is a conspiracy of her princes within her like a roaring lion tearing its prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 NKJV
The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 NLV
Israel’s false religious leaders are making plans within her. They are like a lion making noise over the food it has killed.
Ezekiel 22:25 NLT
Your princes plot conspiracies just as lions stalk their prey.
Ezekiel 22:25 NRSV
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 NRSVA
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 NRSVACE
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 NRSVCE
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Yechezkel 22: OJB
There is a kesher of her nevi’im in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 RSV
Her princes in the midst of her are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 RSVCE
Her princes in the midst of her are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 VOICE
Her prophets conspire in her midst like raging lions killing their prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 WEB
There is a conspiracy of her prophets within it, like a roaring lion ravening the prey:
Ezekiel 22:25 WYC
Swearing together, either conspiring, of prophets is in the midst thereof; as a lion roaring and taking prey like a lion roaring and taking prey,
Ezekiel 22:25 YLT
A conspiracy of its prophets [is] in its midst, as a roaring lion tearing prey;
So the translators know very well what "ka'arie" means. It is just that in Psalm 22 (almost) all the Christian Bible translators are collectively struck with blindness, and go astray.
But here we see what “ka’arie” means: “As the lion”, and, more important, we clearly see what is does NOT mean: "piercing".
So in Psalm 22 it does not speak about the final messiah, and not about a crucifixion, and the “piercing” in Psalm 22 is just another Christian falsification of their Bible translations.
Psalm 22
To begin with; the Psalms are not prophetic writings. Also Psalm 22 does not claim to prophesize about the messiah. It is nowhere written: The messiah will come and he will call out during his execution: My God, my God, why did you forsake me? This is king David speaking about himself. This Psalm is written mainly in the past tense, and describes the tribulations King David went through. But, as shown before, the authentic messianic prophecies are NOT fulfilled by Jesus, and therefore Christianity has to resort to Biblical texts that have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, and present them as messianic prophecies. Because of the fact that, according the NT, Jesus quoted Psalms during his execution, the Christians claim that this Psalm must be a prophecy about the messiah. An upside down proof based upon nothing. And even that is not enough. In order to make it a little more authentic Christianity squeezed in the infamous falsification about the “piercing of hand and feet”. See verse 16: “Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet.” They say: “Look! Here is the crucifixion, prophesized in the Psalms!”
Point one: It is not written here that that the hands and feet of the messiah would be pierced. Like I pointed out: King David speaks here about himself, and that in the past tense. And on top of that: there is no such a thing as “they pierced my hand an feet”. The Hebrew word that is here translated as 'pierced' is 'ka'arie'. There is no word that even comes close to ka'arie that means piercing. To call this a mistranslation is too euphemistic, we should call this just what it is; another Christian falsification of their Bible translations, in order to squeeze in JC. The word that comes the closest is 'karah', but it is impossible to fit that in here, because that would violate almost every rule in the Hebrew grammar. And besides that, karah does not mean piercing, but 'to dig up, to bring up from the ground' (in the sense of mining)
The Hebrew prefix 'ka' means: 'as the', and the Hebrew word 'arie' means 'lion'. So what it says here is: "Like the lion [they are at] my hands and feet." The text between the square brackets is my insertion. So King David, who is not prophesizing about the messiah here, is speaking about a lion, and not about piercing hands and feet. The same lion he speaks about in verse 13 and 21.
Also the modern day Bible translations translate this in the wrong way. I could find only one Christian Bible translation who translates this verse in the right way, and that is the translation of the Y-H-V-H witnesses. But at least the modern Bible translations have the decency to write that there is no such thing in the Hebrew text.
My edition of the Revised Standard Version has a footnote with the word pierced in verse 16, it says there: "Gk Syr Jerome: Heb like a lion" That means that the translators get the word “pierced” from the ancient Greek translation; the Septuaginth, and from the Syriac translation, and from the Vulgata, the Catholic translation of the Bible into Latin, made by Jerome, on the request of Pope Damascus, in 328 CE. But this: “Heb like a lion” means that they admit that in the Hebrew is written: Like a lion.
Here is the footnote of the New American Standard Bible Update (1995): "Another reading is like a lion, my..."
And here is the footnote of the New International Version: "Some Hebrew manuscripts, Septuagint and Syriac; most Hebrew manuscripts: 'like the lion,"
What the Bible translators are doing here is ignoring the original Hebrew Bible, and translating translations instead, because that fits the Christian theology better.
But the exact same word "ka'arie" is used in Isaiah 38:13. This claim can be checked out by people who cannot read Hebrew, by means of the Christian Hebrew-English interlinear, that is a Hebrew text of the Tanach, (OT), with under each word an English translation. Provided by a Christian institution. Look here: www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm and look there how it is translated there. It is possible to zoom into the text.
On the right side of the Hebrew text is a normal English translation. Now look at the discrepancy between how the Hebrew is translated right underneath, and how it is translated in the text on the right side. VERY educational!
And look here how the English translations translate the word "ka'arie" in Isaiah 38:11;
New International Version “I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones;”
ew American Standard Bible: “I composed my soul until morning. Like a lion--so He breaks all my bones,”
The Message: “I cry for help until morning. Like a lion, God pummels and pounds me,”
Amplified Bible: “I thought and quieted myself until morning. Like a lion He breaks all my bones;”
New Living Translation: “I waited patiently all night, but I was torn apart as though by lions.”
King James Version: “I reckoned till morning, that, as a lion, so will he break all my bones:”
English Standard Version: “I calmed myself until morning; like a lion he breaks all my bones;”
Contemporary English Version: “Until morning came, I thought you would crush my bones just like a hungry lion;”
New King James Version: “ I have considered until morning-- Like a lion, So He breaks all my bones;”
New Century Version: "I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones"
21st Century King James Version: “I reckoned till morning that, as a lion, so will He break all my bones;”
American Standard Version: “I quieted myself until morning; as a lion, so he breaketh all my bones:”
Young's Literal Translation: “I have set [Him] till morning as a lion, So doth He break all my bones,”
Darby Translation: “I kept still until the morning; ... as a lion, so doth he break all my bones.”
Revised Standard version: “I cry for help until morning; like a lion he breaks all my bones;”
Another place where we see the word "ka'arie" is in Numbers 24:9. See here how it is there translated:
New International Version “Like a lion they crouch and lie down"
New American Standard Bible: “He crouches, he lies down as a lion"
The Message: “Israel crouches like a lion and naps"
Amplified Bible: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"
New Living Translation: “Like a lion, Israel crouches and lies down"
King James Version: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"
English Standard Version: “He crouched, he lay down like a lion"
Contemporary English Version: “Like a lion you lie down"
New King James Version: “He bows down, he lies down as a lion"
New Century Version: “Like a lion, they lie waiting to attack"
21th Century King James Version: "He couched, he lay down as a lion"
American Standard Version: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"
Young's Literal Translation: “He hath bent, he hath lain down as a lion"
Darby Translation: “He stooped, he lay down like a lion"
Revised Standard version: “He couched, he lay down like a lion"
Also in Ezechiel 22:25 we encounter the same word "ka'arie", followed by the word "sho'eig", which means "roaring".
See here how that is translated:Ezekiel 22:25 KJ21
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey.
Ezekiel 22:25 ASV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey:
Ezekiel 22:25 AMP
There is a conspiracy of [Israel’s false] prophets in the midst of her, like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 CEB
The conspiracy of princes in her is like a roaring lion ripping up prey.
Ezekiel 22:25 CJB
There is a conspiracy of prophets in it like a roaring lion tearing up the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 CEV
Their leaders are like roaring lions, tearing apart their victims.
Ezekiel 22:25 DARBY
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst of her like a roaring lion ravening the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 DRA
There is a conspiracy of prophets in the midst thereof: like a lion that roareth and catcheth the prey,
Ezekiel 22:25 ERV
The prophets in Jerusalem are making evil plans. They are like a lion—it roars when it begins to eat the animal it
caught.
Ezekiel 22:25 ESV
The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 ESVUK
The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 EXB
Like a roaring lion that tears ·the animal it has caught [its prey], Israel’s ·rulers [princes] ·make evil plans [conspire].
Ezekiel 22:25 GNV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof like a roaring lion, ravening the prey:
Ezekiel 22:25 GW
Your princes are like roaring lions who tear their prey into pieces.
Ezekiel 22:25 GNT
The leaders are like lions roaring over the animals they have killed.
Ezekiel 22:25 HCSB
The conspiracy of her prophets within her is like a roaring lion tearing its prey:
Ezekiel 22:25 KJV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 AKJV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey;
Ezechiel 22: KNOX
What of the prophets? A sworn conspiracy; lions roaring for their prey, the lives of men;
Ezekiel 22:25 LEB
The conspiracy of its prophets in the midst of her is like a roaring lion that is tearing prey.
Ezekiel 22:2523- MSG
*The leaders among you became desperate, like roaring, ravaging lions killing indiscriminately.
Ezekiel 22:25 NOG
Your princes are like roaring lions who tear their prey into pieces.
Ezekiel 22:25 NASB
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in her midst like a roaring lion tearing the prey.
Ezekiel 22:25 NCV
Like a roaring lion that tears the animal it has caught, Israel’s rulers make evil plans.
Ezekiel 22:25 NET
Her princes within her are like a roaring lion tearing its prey; they have devoured lives.
Ezekiel 22:25 NIRV
“Ezekiel, the princes of the land are like a roaring lion that tears its food apart.
Ezekiel 22:25 NIV
There is a conspiracy of her princes within her like a roaring lion tearing its prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 NIVUK
There is a conspiracy of her princes within her like a roaring lion tearing its prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 NKJV
The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 NLV
Israel’s false religious leaders are making plans within her. They are like a lion making noise over the food it has killed.
Ezekiel 22:25 NLT
Your princes plot conspiracies just as lions stalk their prey.
Ezekiel 22:25 NRSV
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 NRSVA
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 NRSVACE
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 NRSVCE
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Yechezkel 22: OJB
There is a kesher of her nevi’im in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 RSV
Her princes in the midst of her are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 RSVCE
Her princes in the midst of her are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 VOICE
Her prophets conspire in her midst like raging lions killing their prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 WEB
There is a conspiracy of her prophets within it, like a roaring lion ravening the prey:
Ezekiel 22:25 WYC
Swearing together, either conspiring, of prophets is in the midst thereof; as a lion roaring and taking prey like a lion roaring and taking prey,
Ezekiel 22:25 YLT
A conspiracy of its prophets [is] in its midst, as a roaring lion tearing prey;
So the translators know very well what "ka'arie" means. It is just that in Psalm 22 (almost) all the Christian Bible translators are collectively struck with blindness, and go astray.
But here we see what “ka’arie” means: “As the lion”, and, more important, we clearly see what is does NOT mean: "piercing".
So in Psalm 22 it does not speak about the final messiah, and not about a crucifixion, and the “piercing” in Psalm 22 is just another Christian falsification of their Bible translations.
beameup
New member
OK, how about Daniel? Is Daniel "prophetic" enough for you?
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [mashiyach nagiyd] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off [כָּרַת kârath] - Daniel 9:25-26a
So, Daniel pin-points the coming of Messiah to the 1st century AD. And, Messiah will be executed.
Elia
Well-known member
beameup
New member
I don't have to "look somewhere else", Daniel is crystal clear.
Messiah arrived in the 2nd or 3rd decade CE, depending on which edict you choose as the starting point (Darius, Cyrus, Artaxerxes I). Nachmanides knew this, however, he states that Messiah just "failed to show up".
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Only in your corrupted translation it is "crystal clear". Read it in a good translation, and then you'll see that Daniel speaks about two messiahs, and non of them being THE messiah.
beameup
New member
You obviously are uninformed concerning what you famous sages have written on the subject.
mashiach nagid is his royal title.
Daniel states that He was EXECUTED
You are dealing with corrupted translations, arriving at false conclusions.
oatmeal
Well-known member
The Psalms are not prophetic through and through, but they do contain truths that apply to future events regarding the Messiah.
When a person receives revelation they do not necessarily know all the implications of what God is telling them. What may seem to be truth for the present may actually be a prophecy, a foretelling of the future.
That is a passage may be both forthtelling and foretelling.
For instance, "out of Egypt have I called my son" The forthtelling part is that this passage is reference to Israel being called out of the bondage in Egypt. However, it has the additional element of foretelling of Joseph and Mary moving back to Judea after a stay in Egypt
Some passages are clearly foretelling
Psalms most definitely contains references to the future truths regarding the Messiah, Jesus the son of God.
Since I do not know all of them off hand, I do not know if all foretelling in Psalms regarding Jesus the messiah have been yet fulfilled. There may be other truths he will fulfill at his second coming.
PS. Like a lion they broke up my hands and feet, EW Bullinger.
that could happen if someone was driving nails through your hands and feet.
I am sure the executors were not concerned about whether or not they were breaking bones while driving those nails.
What do you think?
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
I go by the Tanach, not by famous sages.
I'm not dealing with translations, I deal with the original Hebrew text.
See here why your translations are corrupted: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/daniel9
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
What I think is that when you randomly take Tanach texts which have no bearing on the messiah, and rip them out of context, and then mistranslate them, and then say they are messianic prophecies, then you can make everybody you want the messiah, whether it is Napoleon Bonaparte, Barak Obama, David Koresh, or the rooster of Moshe:
A Chassidic Rabbi Makes a Startling Discovery
My name is Moshe and I am a Chassidic Jew who has, from my youth, learned the words of our Holy Prophets, and has been puzzled by their meaning.
Then, on the day before Yom Kippur, I contemplated the solemnity of the day and was made aware of the amazing meaning of G-d's words. I recognized the fulfillment of 42 Messianic prophecies of the Tenach, and they changed my life forever.
1. Early in the morning I went to get my rooster to fulfill the ancient custom. There in the light I looked into his eyes and saw fulfilled the words, 'I am the rooster* who has seen affliction.' (Lam. 3:1)
2. I took him and swung him around my head as the verse says, 'And he circled his head**.' (Lam 3:5)
3. I moved my hands as I swirled him, as it says, 'Only against me did he turn his hand.' (Lam 3:3)
4. With this he leaped from my hand and started to run. As it says, 'They have run away without seeing good.' (Job 9:25)
5. I cried a short pray to HaShem as it says, 'My words I say out of the bitterness of my soul.' (Job 10:1)
6. He ran from me, fulfilling the verse, 'To me they showed their back and not their face.' (Jer. 32:33)
7/8. I borrowed a cane from a man near me so as to catch him with the rounded edge, as the verse says, 'And Moshe took the stick.' (Ex. 4:20, Num 20:8)
9/10. I tried to catch him with the hook, but only the blows of the cane hit his back as it says, 'Afflicted by the rod of his anger.' (Lam. 3:1 and it also says, 'I struck you with the blows of an enemy.' (Jer. 30:12)
11. He turned to me and I got him right on the cheek fulfilling the verse, 'I have offered my cheek to the one who strikes me.' (Lam. 3:30)
12. He ran from me into a dark corner and I followed after him, as the verse says, 'He has led me and driven me into the darkness and not light.'
(Lam. 3:2)
13. I had him there in the corner as it says; 'All her pursuers overtook her in the small place.' (Lam. 1:3)
14. He stood there silent, as he had been to this time in fulfillment of the words of the prophet, 'He was persecuted and afflicted, be he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)
15. In that corner there was just nowhere for him to hide from me as the verse says, 'Can a person hide in a concealed place, and I should not see him?' (Jer. 23:25)
16. He was now trapped as the verse says, 'He has walled me in so I cannot escape.' (Lam. 3:7)
17. In his eyes I could see him praying silently to HaShem, 'My G-d my G-d why have you forsaken me?' (Psalm 22:1)
18. Clearly it was fulfilled for him, 'The mighty ones of Bashan encircle me.' (Psalm 22:13)
19. I grabbed him and he started to call out to HaShem.
As the verse says, 'My G-d, I call to you by day and you do not answer and by night and there is no respite.' (Psalm 22:3)
20. But there was no answer as it says, 'Though I would scream out and plead he shut out my prayer.' (Lam. 3:8)
21. It was clearly the end. I grabbed him and took my place in the line waiting to give my rooster to the shochet (ritual slaughterer.) He was silent, 'Like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe to her sharers he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)
22. The shochet took him by the neck as it says; 'He grasped me by the neck.' (Job 16:12)
23. With that he screamed out, 'Be not far from me because distress is near and there is none to help me.' (Psalm 22:12)
24. He also said, 'Save my soul from the sword.' (Psalm 22:21)
25. He slaughtered him fulfilling 'He was removed from the living land.' (Is. 53:8)
26. He let the blood fall on the floor, as it says, 'I am poured out like water.' (Psalm 22:15)
27. I took the dead chicken and gazed at it as the prophet says, 'They have looked upon me whom they have pierced.' (Zech 12:10)
28/29. I took it to be made kosher. We separated it into pieces snapping it's bones as the verses say, 'All my bones became disjointed.' (Psalm 22:15) 'He has broken my bones.' (Lam 3:4)
30. Then I took him home to cook. My wife removed the skin as it says, 'He has worn away my flesh and skin.' (Lam. 3:4)
31. She placed him in a pot with water, as it says, 'For the waters have reached unto my soul.' (Psalm 69:2)
32. She added many spices as it says, 'And she gave ...many spices.' (1 Kings 10:10)
33. She covered up the pot so it could cook as it says; 'He has placed me in darkness.' (Lam 3:6)
34. The smell of it filled the room as it says, 'That the spices may flow out.' (Song 4:16)
35. After that it was served on the table and we gazed upon it as the verse says, 'I count my bones and they gaze and look upon me.' (Psalm 22:18)
36. He was divided among the members of my family, as it says, 'Therefore I will divide him among the many.' (Is. 53:12)
37/38. We rejoiced and sang as we ate him, as it says, 'I have become a thing of laughter for my people, they sing all day long.' (Lam. 3:14) 'In him our hearts were joyful.' (Psalm 33:21)
39/40/41. After which we were full and praised G-d as it says, 'You shall eat and be satisfied and praise HaShem your G-d.' (Deut. 6:11,8:10,11:15).
42. We truly saw the goodness of G-d as it say, 'You should taste and see that HaShem is good.' (Psalm 34:9)
There were many more messianic prophecies that I could have added that applied to my messianic rooster. Many more he will fulfill when he comes back.
In all seriousness the above example is no different then the lists claiming 200/300/400 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. They claim the odds against a single person fulfilling them are astronomical. Or of their claims that passages like Psalms 22, or Isaiah 53 are about their messiah/god. Consider this well when you see or hear the claims made by missionaries or just simple Christians who you may meet. If not there may be a prophecy that does really apply: 'They are a people bereft of council and they don't have understanding.'
* In Hebrew the word 'gever' means both 'man' and 'rooster'berew
** In Hebrew the word is resh aleph shin, which can be read as 'rosh' head'
(c) Moshe Shulman, 2000
oatmeal
Well-known member
If you wish to be offensive, you shall reap what you sow. I will keep my distance when you reap
beameup
New member
Elia
Well-known member
oatmeal
Well-known member
Indeed, there are false prophets, apostles, teachers etc found within the Christian community, however, those who hunger and thirst for righteousness shall be filled
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Do you now understand that just taking Tanach texts which have no bearing on the messiah, and then saying they are messianic prophecies, just doesn't work?
Especially not since the real messianic prophecies are unfulfilled.
marhig
Well-known member
This is the truth, Jesus is the messiah. You have the veil upon your heart and you cannot see the truth.
If you can't see the that Jesus is anointed of God then your ears and eyes are closed. Your heart is hard toward Christ Jesus, And you will never see the truth with a hard heart.
beameup
New member
You have a corrupted Masoretic Text which dates from 1,000 AD.
Many "English" translator used your corrupted text.
The Hebrew to Greek Translation by your Jewish Scribes in the 4th Century B.C. got it correct.
Many dogs have surrounded me,
They gouge my hands and my feet.
beameup
New member
And just what would these be?
BTW, Daniel speaks of ONE Messiah, but you claim there are "two". So, now you are claiming a "third"??