The Water and Earth were Both Present Before the Six Days of Creation

[mtwilcox]

LoL! Dano said:

Which is funny water existed without god needing to create it

Water was there, and so was the earth, when God created the environment for, and the life on earth. The six day creation period.
In fact God did create the earth and water on it, in the first verse of Genesis: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Which is why in my Old Earth, Young Life Creationist theory, there is a place for an infinite amount of time to have passed between the beginning of creation of the earth, the rest of space and the Six Day period when God came to earth and created the life on this planet.

The Heavens and Earth were of old, when God Created the Life on planet Earth.

Dano says:
Still it straight up says it the sun was made on the 4th day.

Since the Heavens and Earth were already Created in the first verse, I believe that it's pretty clear he made the Stars, Earth, and Water in the First Verse; before the six day creation period.

Genesis Ch 1

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


Now, Since the heavens and the earth were created in verse 1, it seems this section is God reworking the firmament to allow the lights of the heavens to shine through it.
Notice how ":he made the Stars also" has a colon before it? This alludes that he also made the Stars, it doesn't mean he made them at that time. In fact, when he made the Stars was already claimed in verse one. Why would he make them twice?

The fourth day is simply the day God arranged the atmosphere to allow light to pass through it. Giving us the illusion of Day and Night. Allowing night to be a time when man can observe the heavens he created in verse 1.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth.

Where in ch 1 of genesis does it "straight up say he made the Sun"? The Stars, and our sun were made in the beginning, along with the earth and the rest of the planets.

Do you disagree?

How do you define "the heavens"?

If that doesn't mean the universe and all it contains to you; what does it mean?

Firmament = Atmosphere

This theory by the way, is what most Jewish scholars believe happened... I know you were taught in Sunday School, that the moon and the sun and stars were all made on the fourth day... but Jewish scholars and myself believe that they were all made in the beginning, and the fourth day is God creating the proper rotation of the earth, and allowing the heavenly bodies "Stars, planets, and sun" to shine through the atmosphere. I mean, that's even what my Jewish Study Bible states.

I mean, doesn't it make more sense to you? That God would have made all the stars at the same time, including our Sun, which is also a star?

Dano:
Meh, its pretty obvious What that verse is saying. You have to create your interpretation to make sense of it. And thats what happens when you try to fix old beliefs against the science of our day and age

You make far more assumptions as a fundamentalist as I do with evolution.

I like how you avoided all my questions above.

Later today, I'm going to take on the unscientific theory of evolution... Given I've already proved the fine tuned universe is truth, it is fine tuned no matter if you believe there is some unforeseen law of physics that allowed for all the constants and forces to appear from nothing; and, the problem with life coming about from inorganic materials on their own, again by some unfounded law of nature you assume must exist: both of these examples of your unfounded force/law reasoning are equivalent to the reasoning "nature did it" "time did it" or "God did it".

The plastic theory of Evolution is next...



By the way my questions are the sentences that end with a "?", just wanted to make sure you are aware of that.

“Meh”, was my answer. I don't buy all the assumptions you promote to making genesis seem legitamate as a scientific text

Never said it is a scientific text; I do claim it's truth, however. It does explain when and in what order things were created.
My statements about the genesis chapter are not "assumptions" of what is stated in the text, it's what they say, and what the Jewish Study Bible in fact also claims it says, and they even gather that from the original Hebrew text; meaning the Hebrew word that the English bible uses for heavens actually means a term equal to Universe and the contents of it "Stars, planets, all of the celestial bodies".

שָׁמַיִם

"the heavens"

Shamayim

Deuteronomy 10:14 - Behold, "the heaven" and the "heaven of heavens" is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

The same word is used in this verse, saying "the heavens"; as in where the stars are, exist.

Gen 22:17 - That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as "the stars of the heaven", and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

What doesn't make sense to me, is to believe that Lungs, and Eyes can form themselves through reproduction, Mutation, and Weaker Species Dying off over time; if you ask me Survival of the Fittest Merely leads to Extinct Species, and is a Great Reason for why Many Animals no Longer Exist, not a Reason for why Many Animals Exist and are Observable.

It should be obvious to you now that water, the earth with all other planets their moons, and stars, we're all created in verse 1 of genesis.

=M=

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What are all of your thoughts on this subject?

 

[mtwilcox]

The heavens = the universe

=M=

 

[Right Divider]

The Bible repeatedly says that God created heaven and earth in six days.

Exo 31:17 KJV It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.​

 

[mtwilcox]

Wow!!! Good quote! Thank you for your reply!
That flat out says God made the heavens and the earth in 6 days!

I was trying to explain to my friend when God made the water on the earth...
From the scripture it seems to say that water and the earth were here when God started his six 24 hour day creation period...


Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

See, the spirit of God was moving upon the face of the waters of the earth.
If God didn’t make the heavens and earth, and the water on the earth before the six day creation period; When do you believe he made the water and earth?

I’m really interested in this, please reply:

=M=

 

[Stripe]

Is this Cadry?

 

[Gary K]

This is an interesting question. I've thought about this for at least 20 years, and I don't believe I understand all it means yet. I have the distinct impression that I'm missing some very large implications.

1. If the "waters" are actually water in it's liquid state, rather than as ice or steam, the question arises how was it not frozen? A pre-existing earth without the sun would have been very very cold. Any water exposed to open space have either frozen solid, or much more likely, would have boiled away in a very short time because of the lack of an atmosphere.
2. The Bible tells us that there were waters under the earth and that those collections of waters were broken up and became fountains of waters at the time of the flood. So is Moses referring to those waters? Was Moses referring to the rock and soil covering them as their "face"?
3. The Hebrew word translated as face seems to have a multitude of meanings and inflections. As I'm no expert in Hebrew I have to rely on tools such as Strong's and they leave me pretty much clueless as to how the term was really meant to be used.
4. The word translated as heavens, as per Strong's, can mean anything from the arch of the sky which we see when we look up in daylight, to outer space and the stars. Once again I'm not sure which meaning was used in the Hebrew.
5. If we read verse 2 literally how could an existing earth have no form or shape? It's a logical impossibility to humans. How was that verse meant to be read? I don't know.
6. From the rest of the Bible we find a lot of evidence that the earth was not God's first act of creation. Angels preceded humans, but by how long? Millions or trillions of years, or by days? The Bible sheds no light on the subject.

Like I said, it's an interesting question but it usually generates a lot more heat than light.

 

[Stripe]

1. If the "waters" are actually water in it's liquid state, rather than as ice or steam, the question arises how was it not frozen? A pre-existing earth without the sun would have been very very cold. Any water exposed to open space have either frozen solid, or much more likely, would have boiled away in a very short time because of the lack of an atmosphere.

It only had to last a few days. That is not enough time to freeze the oceans solid. Presumably, it would have been cold — although there was a source of light, so there must have been some heat.

2. The Bible tells us that there were waters under the earth and that those collections of waters were broken up and became fountains of waters at the time of the flood. So is Moses referring to those waters? Was Moses referring to the rock and soil covering them as their "face"?

It seems that way. The Bible commonly refers to them as "the deep."

4. The word translated as heavens, as per Strong's, can mean anything from the arch of the sky which we see when we look up in daylight, to outer space and the stars. Once again I'm not sure which meaning was used in the Hebrew.

I think there are at least two distinct uses in Gen. 1. What I want to know is how the translators figure out whether the Hebrew should be pluralized in English.

5. If we read verse 2 literally how could an existing earth have no form or shape? It's a logical impossibility to humans. How was that verse meant to be read? I don't know.

I reckon it just meant it was a pretty much uniform sphere. That's not strictly "formless," but then again, what is?

6. From the rest of the Bible we find a lot of evidence that the earth was not God's first act of creation. Angels preceded humans, but by how long? Millions or trillions of years, or by days? The Bible sheds no light on the subject.

I think it's safe to assume that this answer makes very little difference either way. I'd guess that all of the creating was done pretty much at the same time, but who knows. :idunno:

Like I said, it's an interesting question but it usually generates a lot more heat than light.

We could talk about how homos are perverts instead.

:chuckle:

 

[Gary K]

It only had to last a few days. That is not enough time to freeze the oceans solid. Presumably, it would have been cold — although there was a source of light, so there must have been some heat.

It seems that way. The Bible commonly refers to them as "the deep."

I think there are at least two distinct uses in Gen. 1. What I want to know is how the translators figure out whether the Hebrew should be pluralized in English.



I reckon it just meant it was a pretty much uniform sphere. That's not strictly "formless," but then again, what is?



I think it's safe to assume that this answer makes very little difference either way. I'd guess that all of the creating was done pretty much at the same time, but who knows. :idunno:



We could talk about how homos are perverts instead.

:chuckle:

Where do you get the information that says the water only had to last a few days? I don't find that anywhere. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just know of no evidence for or against your statement. Without an atmosphere to protect the water, and space being the vacuum that it is the waters, if not those under the earth, would simply have boiled off for the lower the atmospheric pressure the lower the temp that water boils away at. I can melt ice and boil it away in pretty low temps using a sealed container and a vacuum pump. As space is an almost perfect vacuum any ice or water would simply have boiled away.

As far as the "deep" goes it can also mean an ocean, sea, etc.... Job 38:30 speaks of the "deep" being frozen. The waters under the earth are never going to get that cold due to the earth's molten core. So the reference in Job can only mean the oceans around the poles. How do you distinguish between the two meanings in the case of Genesis 1? How about Psalm 104:6? It is pretty clear that it is referencing the water above the surface of the earth for it speaks of the "deep" being above the mountains during the flood. How about Psalm 107:23,24 for it speaks of those who go down to the sea in ships and see God's wonders in the deep?

It's pretty plain to me that the same word is used in multiple ways in the Bible and Genesis 1:2 is vague as to what it is referring to.

As to your guess on creation all happening at once, that implies that the devil came to be so envious of the position of God that he rebelled within just a couple of days his creation. I find that hard to swallow. It doesn't make sense with God being who He is that within just a couple of days of the creation of Lucifer, a covering cherub, that he would go so nuts as to rebel against God and come down to earth to destroy humanity. That kind of spiritual process takes time. I'm sure my conversion looked like it was almost instantaneous from the outside, but I can trace years of God's influence in my life leading me to Him. I didn't descend into the depths of evil overnight, and I didn't come out of those depths overnight either. With no knowledge or bent to evil within himself it must have taken quite some time for Lucifer to develop those characteristics. I can't see a complete transformation taking place with zero external forces pushing him towards evil to become that way in what virtually amounts to what would have been an overnight transformation.

 

[Stripe]

Where do you get the information that says the water only had to last a few days?

The water was there on day 1. The sun was created on day 4.

Without an atmosphere to protect the water, and space being the vacuum that it is the waters, if not those under the earth, would simply have boiled off for the lower the atmospheric pressure the lower the temp that water boils away at.

There was almost certainly an atmosphere on day 1, although that's just a guess. My defense was that it would not have frozen solid due to no sun.

As far as the "deep" goes it can also mean an ocean, sea, etc.

That's what I'm talking about too.

Job 38:30 speaks of the "deep" being frozen.

Its surface, at least.

How do you distinguish between the two meanings in the case of Genesis 1?

I don't think there is two meanings. There was one body of water — called the deep — and it was separated into two parts by the firmament, or the Earth's crust. Post-flood and the separation is gone.

It's pretty plain to me that the same word is used in multiple ways in the Bible and Genesis 1:2 is vague as to what it is referring to.

Sure.

As to your guess on creation all happening at once, that implies that the devil came to be so envious of the position of God that he rebelled within just a couple of days his creation. I find that hard to swallow. It doesn't make sense with God being who He is that within just a couple of days of the creation of Lucifer, a covering cherub, that he would go so nuts as to rebel against God and come down to earth to destroy humanity. That kind of spiritual process takes time.

I wouldn't have a problem with that. As I say, I don't think it's going to make much of a difference to anything.

 

[mtwilcox]

First, thank you guys for the thought out replies.

Stripe, I am not Michael, but I am a friend of his.

6. From the rest of the Bible we find a lot of evidence that the earth was not God's first act of creation. Angels preceded humans, but by how long? Millions or trillions of years, or by days? The Bible sheds no light on the subject.

Like I said, it's an interesting question but it usually generates a lot more heat than light.

Yes, I agree; the fact that Angels are not mentioned in the six day creation period is another factor that should be attempted to be explained in this thread. I believe that some people believe they were created the same day as birds, because they believe/assume they all have wings; however, I for one have never been satisfied by that statement.

Hebrew words that are translated as plural, often ending in an “s” in English, are decided by the fact Hebrew words that end with “im” are the plural version of Hebrew words.

So, if the earth, water, and angels all existed before the six day creation period; it leads me to believe my original thought to be true.

However, I believe the Bible to be true, throughout; and, as posted above, it does say that God created the heavens and the earth in six days.

Does anybody here disagree with the fact water, angels, and the earth were in existence before the six days of creation?

I’ve always have heard that angels existed before man was created; is there any bible verse which explains when angels were created?

This is a very interesting subject to me, and prior to the verse posted saying God created the heavens and earth in six days, I’ve always thought that there was an initial creation of the heavens and earth, all the planets and stars and moons; then God came to the Earth and started to create the environment for, and the life here on earth. To me this theory would fully explain the apparent age of the cosmos, and allow for a time period when angels could have been created.

If anybody has another verse quote supporting a belief either way, please post it.

Here are some verses I’ve found related to this subject;

Col 1:16 - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Job 38:4 - Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 - Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 - Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 - When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

This section said the angels shouted for joy when God created the Earth...
Which leads me to believe they were created before the Life here on earth; again suggesting a time period of creation before the six days of creation.

If you are a true believer in the six day creation period alone, do you believe that “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” is included as part of the first day of creation?

If so, when did God create the angels; the verse above says he created all things, and the angels were present for the six day creation: so, doesn’t that suggest a time of creation before the six days of creation?


Anyway; again, thank you for your replies!
If you know any other verses related to this subject, please post them and explain.

=M=


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[Stripe]

I am not Michael, but I am a friend of his.

:rotfl:

Hi, Michael.

 

[mtwilcox]

Another note on the plural Hebrew words that end in “im”:

Some words in the Bible that are plural Hebrew words, have been translated in their singular form.
Sometimes these plural/singular tenses of translation are obvious, depending on the version of the Bible you are reading; whether these variations are intentional or a mistake of the translator, these discrepancies do exist.

For instance:

KJV
Gen 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

NKJV
Gen 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

NLT
Gen 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

While I do prefer the KJV over any other translation, the word “heaven” is singular, but in the Hebrew text it is a plural term. In the Hebrew word “shamayim” the “im” of of shamay-im makes it a plural term; but, as you can see, between translations it’s depicted as plural or singular. The correct tense should be plural, as in “heavens”.

This same tense variation between translations happens in many places in the Bible.


=M=

 

[jamie]

What are all of your thoughts on this subject?

Great post.

It is written that Satan said I will ascend above the clouds... (Isaiah 14:14)

Obviously he was below the clouds when he said this. This was before the recreation in Genesis 1:2.

 

[Stripe]

Another note on the plural Hebrew words that end in “im”:

Some words in the Bible that are plural Hebrew words, have been translated in their singular form.
Sometimes these plural/singular tenses of translation are obvious, depending on the version of the Bible you are reading; whether these variations are intentional or a mistake of the translator, these discrepancies do exist.

For instance:

KJV
Gen 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

NKJV
Gen 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

NLT
Gen 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

While I do prefer the KJV over any other translation, the word “heaven” is singular, but in the Hebrew text it is a plural term. In the Hebrew word "shamayim" the “im” of of shamay-im makes it a plural term; but, as you can see, between translations it’s depicted as plural or singular. The correct tense should be plural, as in “heavens”.

This same tense variation between translations happens in many places in the Bible.


=M=

Got it.

As far as I can tell, verses 1, 8, 9, 14, 15, 17 and 20 use the Hebrew word shamay for heaven in either form, but only the v8 instance should be pluralized in English, which is what the NKJV does.

The NKJV also capitalizes "Heaven" in v8, which makes sense given it is the name given to that firmament.

Speaking of firmaments, vs 14, 15, 17 and 20 talk about the "firmament of the heavens." This seems to distinguish it from the firmament named Heaven in v8.

This makes sense from a Hydroplate perspective, ie, that the v8 firmament refers to the crust of the Earth, while subsequent usage refers to the sky, but it does seem strange that the word raqia, given how it was introduced, would be used to refer to sky things.

Why not simply say the birds flew across the "face of the heavens" instead of "the face of the firmament of the heavens"?

 

[Gary K]

[MENTION=21085]mtwilcox[/MENTION]

Yes, I agree; the fact that Angels are not mentioned in the six day creation period is another factor that should be attempted to be explained in this thread. I believe that some people believe they were created the same day as birds, because they believe/assume they all have wings; however, I for one have never been satisfied by that statement.

This is all I will comment on right now. Jesus went to His Father's house to prepare mansions for those who follow Him. This is direct reference to other places/planets that have existed for eternity for God always has been. The New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven. Where? It's somewhere beyond the reach of all of the sensors humans can devise.

Another point in this argument is that when we look around us, even after thousands of years of sin and it's destructive effects we see that God is exceedingly creative and a lover of beauty. To imagine that someone that creative and that imaginative could exist forever and have never created anything but earth and humans until He spoke us and our environment into existence seems very strange. God could exist for billions/trillions of years in the past and not exercised His creative power? That is a huge stretch for me to make. From what we know of Him it makes no sense.

In the story of Job we see twice where the "sons of God" came before Him and the devil showed up too. The references to these meetings to me say this is a common occurrence. This directly implies other worlds with other creations. And they would be unfallen worlds for we find the phrase "sons of God" repeatedly in the NT and it is always used for those who are not in rebellion against God.

 

[chair]

Got it.

As far as I can tell, verses 1, 8, 9, 14, 15, 17 and 20 use the Hebrew word shamay for heaven in either form, but only the v8 instance should be pluralized in English, which is what the NKJV does.

The Hebrew is always "Shamaim". Grammatically is has a plural ending, but it isn't really plural in the usual sense. There is no "Shamay" that refers to Sky or Heaven, as far as I know.

 

[Stripe]

The Hebrew is always "Shamaim". Grammatically is has a plural ending, but it isn't really plural in the usual sense. There is no "Shamay" that refers to Sky or Heaven, as far as I know.

OK. My mistake. I can't read Hebrew that well, I guess.

Why do the NKJV translators use Heaven (upper case, singular in English) exclusively in verse 8 of all the instances in Genesis 1? Just from context?

 

[chair]

OK. My mistake. I can't read Hebrew that well, I guess.

Why do the NKJV translators use Heaven (upper case, singular in English) exclusively in verse 8 of all the instances in Genesis 1? Just from context?

I'm not sure. It may have more to do with how the English language works than with the Hebrew.

 

[genuineoriginal]

From the scripture it seems to say that water and the earth were here when God started his six 24 hour day creation period...


Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

See, the spirit of God was moving upon the face of the waters of the earth.
If God didn’t make the heavens and earth, and the water on the earth before the six day creation period; When do you believe he made the water and earth?

I have a different theory.
There appears to me that there is a logical progression of creation throughout the six days, based on the complexity of the things created.

Genesis 1:1 refers to all six days of creation, nothing in our physical universe existed before Genesis 1:3.

Genesis 1:2 says that there was no earth at all at that time, it had not been created yet. The "deep" and "waters" refer to the nothingness that God created the heavens and the earth from, but it doesn't match the H₂O we know as water, since none of the elements had been created at this time.

Genesis 1:3-5 The first day refers to God creating photons, the strange wave-particles that are the simplest elements of creation. It is possible that the quantum field was created first and then photons were created from the quantum field.

Genesis 1:6-8 The second day refers to God creating simple atoms that form our periodic table of elements out of the quantum field. The gases in our atmosphere come from these simple atoms, which is why the creation of the sky (firmament, heavens) is mentioned at this time.

Genesis 1:9-13 The third day refers to God creating complex molecules formed from combinations of atoms. These molecules make up the water in the seas (H₂O) and the rocks in the earth, explaining why this is the day when God called the waters Seas and the dry land Earth. In addition to the non-living complex molecules, God also created RNA and DNA to become the building blocks of living things, and created living plants out of them.

Genesis 1:14-19 The fourth day God set up the Sun and photosynthesis to give energy to the living plants. God also created the Moon to provide tides in the seas and movement to the atmosphere to give us weather and seasons. He also filled in planets and other moons in the solar system and created other stars and planets in the outer reaches of space.

Genesis 1:20-23 The fifth day God created the first animal life: the creatures in the seas and the birds in the sky.

Genesis 1:24-31 The sixth day God created the land dwelling animals, culminating in the creation of mankind, the most complex of all creatures.

There are other nuances in the verses of creation that I am skipping here, since I am just trying to outline the progression of creation that I saw.

 

[mtwilcox]

While my theory of an old earth and old universe with young life does not employ the idea of “long day” periods of the six days of creation, many OECs do believe that the days of creation are extended periods of time; and, some even claim millions if not billions of years long “long days”.
It’s always confused me how any thinking person could possibly come to the conclusion that a “day” in the Holy Bible could ever mean anything other than a 24 hour period of time; except for of course in such a phrase as “in the day of Solomon,” or “in the day of Noah.”

I think the Hebrew texts are clear that the six days of creation were indeed 24 hour days, and God created the life and environment for it in those six days.

This is a “new” video of the debate between the YEC theory of creation week, and the OEC theory of days that last millions, if not billions of years; Ken Ham vs Jeff Zweerink!

=M=



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