The sons of God

[Turbo]

A few years ago there was a great thread started by CrimsonHope by the same title on the topic of whether or not giants were the offspring of fallen angels and human mothers. Unfortunately, that thread has been pruned. But a remnant remains in this SPOTD which sums up the case nicely (though it is not exhaustive).

I invite those who reject the notion that fallen angels were capable of producing offspring with human women to read this post carefully and reconsider their position in light of it. You may find that there is a stronger Biblical case for this than you had thought:

Originally posted by LightSon

If you accept the premise that the phrase "sons of God", as translated in the OT, refers to a single class of beings, then some inferences can be made. The phrase is found in the OT 5 times.

Job 38:4-7 states that these "sons of God" were present when the foundation of the Earth was laid. If you hold that "sons of God" are human, then you have a problem, since God hadn't created mankind as yet.

Job 1:6 shows that "sons of God" were aligned with Satan as he came before God to get permission to plague Job. Why are they mentioned in this text? An inference needs to be made. My inference is that these were Satan's henchmen. If you reject this, then who were they and why are they mentioned as specifically coming with Satan? The burden then falls on you, and I can’t even come up with an alternate reason.

I'm not sure I can prove that "sons of God" are fallen angels, but the preponderance of the texts strongly suggests it to me.

Gen 6 SEEMS to suggest a link between giants being produced and the cohabitation of "sons of God" with "daughters of men". Also, these giants and the presentation of "sons of God" are very closely aligned with wickedness that God identified and His ensuing action to destroy man. All these concepts are wrapped together in the context of Gen 6. Why is that? The notion that these were "righteous" persons doesn't hold up, since wickedness immediately ensues.

Fold in a couple of related passages.

1 Peter 3:19,20 makes reference to Christ, By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

That reference shows strong support by way of corroboration, IMO.

What about these “spirits in prison”.
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment 2 Peter 2:4

And
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jude 6

I hold to Sibbie’s view that Satan was moving to corrupt the messianic line.

And it should be noted that this OT phrase, thus translated “sons of God” has no correlation to the NT usage of the same. The OT “sons of God” were present at the foundation of the world; we, as NT “sons of God” were not. I don’t think I’ve proven anything, but do think there is strong support for this position.

​

It's possible that the Sibbie still has some offline notes from her posts from that thread. I'll look into that.

 

[Letsargue]

A few years ago there was a great thread started by CrimsonHope by the same title on the topic of whether or not giants were the offspring of fallen angels and human mothers. Unfortunately, that thread has been pruned. But a remnant remains in this SPOTD which sums up the case nicely (though it is not exhaustive).

I invite those who reject the notion that fallen angels were capable of producing offspring with human women to read this post carefully and reconsider their position in light of it. You may find that there is a stronger Biblical case for this than you had thought:

Originally posted by LightSon

If you accept the premise that the phrase "sons of God", as translated in the OT, refers to a single class of beings, then some inferences can be made. The phrase is found in the OT 5 times.

Job 38:4-7 states that these "sons of God" were present when the foundation of the Earth was laid. If you hold that "sons of God" are human, then you have a problem, since God hadn't created mankind as yet.

Job 1:6 shows that "sons of God" were aligned with Satan as he came before God to get permission to plague Job. Why are they mentioned in this text? An inference needs to be made. My inference is that these were Satan's henchmen. If you reject this, then who were they and why are they mentioned as specifically coming with Satan? The burden then falls on you, and I can’t even come up with an alternate reason.

I'm not sure I can prove that "sons of God" are fallen angels, but the preponderance of the texts strongly suggests it to me.

Gen 6 SEEMS to suggest a link between giants being produced and the cohabitation of "sons of God" with "daughters of men". Also, these giants and the presentation of "sons of God" are very closely aligned with wickedness that God identified and His ensuing action to destroy man. All these concepts are wrapped together in the context of Gen 6. Why is that? The notion that these were "righteous" persons doesn't hold up, since wickedness immediately ensues.

Fold in a couple of related passages.

1 Peter 3:19,20 makes reference to Christ, By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

That reference shows strong support by way of corroboration, IMO.

What about these “spirits in prison”.
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment 2 Peter 2:4

And
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jude 6

I hold to Sibbie’s view that Satan was moving to corrupt the messianic line.

And it should be noted that this OT phrase, thus translated “sons of God” has no correlation to the NT usage of the same. The OT “sons of God” were present at the foundation of the world; we, as NT “sons of God” were not. I don’t think I’ve proven anything, but do think there is strong support for this position.

​

It's possible that the Sibbie still has some offline notes from her posts from that thread. I'll look into that.

---Why do people do this????
---At that time, with Abel killed, there was ONLY Cain and Seth, as heads of families. - Cain, the son of Perdition or the lost, which is the MAN, and the sons of man. --- Then there is Seth, and the children of the Promise, straight to Christ. - Noah’s son or two sons took wives, of the family of Cain, bringing the bloodline through the flood. That crossed blood followed through to Christ, making Christ the Son of Man also, AND through the blood line of Juda by the spoken word of God at Christ Baptism. – We are now, Sons of man and Children of God as we live on the earth. But when we put of the flesh of the MAN in our death, there remains the Spirit which is of God through Abel and SETH. ---/--- A very wise way of doing things I think. Maybe you’ll not like it.
*
---------------Paul---
*

 

[Turbo]

---Why do people do this????
---At that time, with Abel killed, there was ONLY Cain and Seth, as heads of families. -

Wrong!

After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters. Genesis 5:4​

I didn't bother to read the rest of your post. As with a long math problem, there's no reason to expect that your conclusion will be correct when you've made a mistake right off the bat.

 

[Letsargue]

Wrong!

After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters. Genesis 5:4​

I didn't bother to read the rest of your post. As with a long math problem, there's no reason to expect that your conclusion will be correct when you've made a mistake right off the bat.

---Christ came through Seth, Abel and Cain, and none of the other children of Adam and Eve, and you know that.
---So be Ignorant then.
*
-----------------Paul---
*

 

[Turbo]

---Christ came through Seth, Abel and Cain, and none of the other children of Adam and Eve, and you know that.
---So be Ignorant then.
*
-----------------Paul---
*

Christ came through Seth's lineage, not Cain's or Abel's. It wouldn't even be possible for a man to be a direct descendant all of three brothers. But none of this is even relevant to the topic at hand.

 

[Letsargue]

Christ came through Seth's lineage, not Cain's or Abel's. It wouldn't even be possible for a man to be a direct descendant all of three brothers. But none of this is even relevant to the topic at hand.

---Nothing is relevant, if the whole word is not relevant. Just because YOU can't make the connection, doesn't mean it's not there. YOU need to study more so you can SEE.
*
---------------Paul---
*

 

[elohiym]

I invite those who reject the notion that fallen angels were capable of producing offspring with human women to read this post carefully and reconsider their position in light of it. You may find that there is a stronger Biblical case for this than you had thought:

I reject it.

If you accept the premise that the phrase "sons of God", as translated in the OT, refers to a single class of beings...

LightSon's argument is based on the assumption that "sons of God" refers to a single class of being. The same class of beings are refered to in the NT as "sons of God" (Romans 8:14,19; Philippians 2:15; 1 John 3:1,2, etc.). LightSon's argument end's with an assumption that the "sons of God" in the OT, cannot be the same as the "sons of God" being refered to in the NT. I believe that both OT and NT references to "sons of God" are refering to the exact same class of beings, which are not angels.

Job 38:4-7 states that these "sons of God" were present when the foundation of the Earth was laid. If you hold that "sons of God" are human, then you have a problem, since God hadn't created mankind as yet.

"Sons of God" are not men, so not mankind. Although that might sound strange, the Bible supports it.

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High [sons of God]. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Psalm 82:6,7​

Clearly, the "sons of God" are not men. God has contrasted the sons of God with men. True that we inhabit flesh and blood bodies (mankind), but we are not in the flesh as "sons of God."

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2​

To be the son of God is to have the spirit of God's son.

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Galatians 4:6​

So, the fact that God had not created mankind yet is irrelvant, since "sons of God" is a spiritual term that can apply to a son of God at the foundation of world, and a son of God at the end of world, as we are now.

Job 1:6 shows that "sons of God" were aligned with Satan as he came before God to get permission to plague Job. Why are they mentioned in this text? An inference needs to be made. My inference is that these were Satan's henchmen. If you reject this, then who were they and why are they mentioned as specifically coming with Satan? The burden then falls on you, and I can’t even come up with an alternate reason.

I can't believe that LightSon would suggest this. It makes no sense at all, and the scripture clearly refutes it.

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. Job 1:6​

Satan came among the sons of God as they were presenting themselves to the LORD. They are not Satan's henchmen. :doh:

Gen 6 SEEMS to suggest a link between giants being produced and the cohabitation of "sons of God" with "daughters of men". Also, these giants and the presentation of "sons of God" are very closely aligned with wickedness that God identified and His ensuing action to destroy man. All these concepts are wrapped together in the context of Gen 6. Why is that? The notion that these were "righteous" persons doesn't hold up, since wickedness immediately ensues.

LightSon is making many assumptions. The sons of God are ALWAYS righteous. Here is what they did...

That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. Genesis 6:2​

We see the term "sons of God" is contrasted with men again, yet we know that the sons of God can appear in human form as shown in Psalm 82. There is nothing immoral about them choosing wives.

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:4​

Regardless of the reference to giants, we see that the sons of God had children with the daughters of men that they chose in verse 2, and that those children grew up to be mighty and renowned. Nothing unrighteous about the sons of God in those verses.

Fold in a couple of related passages.

1 Peter 3:19,20 makes reference to Christ, By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

That reference shows strong support by way of corroboration, IMO.

The spirits in prison are not the sons of God.

What about these “spirits in prison”.
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment 2 Peter 2:4

And
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jude 6

These verses have nothing to do with the sons of God.

And it should be noted that this OT phrase, thus translated “sons of God” has no correlation to the NT usage of the same. The OT “sons of God” were present at the foundation of the world; we, as NT “sons of God” were not.

It is an undisputable fact that at least one Son of God was present at the foundations of the world. He is not an angel.

The "sons of God" represent the indwelling Word. The Word was presnt at the foundation of world (John 1). Furthermore, the "sons of God" existed at the foundation of the world. It is written, "let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26), and "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:6,7)

 

[logos_x]

Then how did the line of Cain and Seth coming together produce Nephilim, Letsague?

Your racist interpretation of scripture is tiresome.

This is about two worlds colliding, with someone or something coming down to Earth from above and breeding with humans. Hard to believe? You ought to look at what the ancient Sumerians believed, which also presents the same scenario.

 

[Letsargue]

Then how did the line of Cain and Seth coming together produce Nephilim, Letsague?

Your racist interpretation of scripture is tiresome.

This is about two worlds colliding, with someone or something coming down to Earth from above and breeding with humans. Hard to believe? You ought to look at what the ancient Sumerians believed, which also presents the same scenario.

---Why can't any of you guys us the Scriptures to prove our point??? Who can answer a question that has nothing to with the Word. --- NEPHILIM??? That isn't from the Word, it's you crap.
*
----------------Paul---
*

 

[OlDove]

"Sons of God" could it be a way of saying "souls" the ones that have always existed?

 

[logos_x]

---Why can't any of you guys us the Scriptures to prove our point??? Who can answer a question that has nothing to with the Word. --- NEPHILIM??? That isn't from the Word, it's you crap.
*
----------------Paul---
*

Nephilim is the Hebrew word translated giants, Letsargue.
Man also is a translation of Adam. The Ben ha Elohiym (sons of God) came and mated with the offspring of Adam. This produce offspring called Nephilim...Earth born...from naphal, “he fell.”

The subject of the Nephilim is a complicated matter, and one of the great puzzles of the Bible. The same general theme is found throughout ancient writings of many peoples and is not confined exclusively to the Bible.
They were obviously a race of impressive physical stature compared to the smaller Hebrews, from Numbers 13:33. This particular reference is glossed by a statement which implies that the offspring of Anak in Canaan were descended from the renowned Rephaim or Nephilim

The origination of the Nephilim begins with a story of the fallen angels. Originating in the Book of Enoch {Apocrypha} Shemhazai, an angel of high rank, led a sect of angels in a descent to earth to instruct humans in righteousness. The mission lasted for a few centuries, but soon the soldiers/missionaries/angels became corrupted in their lusting after human females. After lusting, the fallen angels instructed the women in magic and conjuring, mated with them, and produced offspring, who would later be referred to as the Nephilim.

 

[OlDove]

For permission to exist in the physical world. Would that be considered a fallen angel? Perhaps we ask God permission.

 

[Letsargue]

"Sons of God" could it be a way of saying "souls" the ones that have always existed?

---The Spirit of God’s dwelling on earth is started with Abel. Before the blood of Abel cried from the ground, there was no Spirit dwelling on earth. Even Satan was a carnal person. The Lord’s Word, Himself, walked in the cool of the day. However the Blood of Abel crying from the ground, gives place for the first Angel, - Michael the first / or Arch Angel. You may know the rest of the STORY.
*
------------Paul---
*

 

[Letsargue]

For permission to exist in the physical world. Would that be considered a fallen angel? Perhaps we ask God permission.

---An Angel can be just about anything that does the will of God. Hornets, Men, wind, rain, or an army of the wicked can do the will of God for a certain purpose. All the bones of the valley of Jehoshaphat, I think it was, were the bones of the Israelites Solders who have lost their lives. God calls them Angels when he brought them against Jerusalem and Judaea. -- Usually Angels are AS men in the Spirit. --- The Apostle Paul, In the Spirit, was Michael the Archangel. That’s easy to show. It doesn’t mean you’ll believe it.
*
---------------Paul---
*

 

[Letsargue]

For permission to exist in the physical world. Would that be considered a fallen angel? Perhaps we ask God permission.

---If a Saint of God falls from God's Grace, that is a falling Angel.
*
-----------------Paul---
*

 

[thelaqachisnext]

---Why do people do this????
---At that time, with Abel killed, there was ONLY Cain and Seth, as heads of families. - Cain, the son of Perdition or the lost, which is the MAN, and the sons of man. --- Then there is Seth, and the children of the Promise, straight to Christ. - Noah’s son or two sons took wives, of the family of Cain, bringing the bloodline through the flood. That crossed blood followed through to Christ, making Christ the Son of Man also, AND through the blood line of Juda by the spoken word of God at Christ Baptism. – We are now, Sons of man and Children of God as we live on the earth. But when we put of the flesh of the MAN in our death, there remains the Spirit which is of God through Abel and SETH. ---/--- A very wise way of doing things I think. Maybe you’ll not like it.
*
---------------Paul---
*

If you go to the Scriptures for yourself [check the Hebrew], and see what they say -then you will see that the Scripture says the sons of God took wives of the daughters of" Adam".

Then; after you check the original wording for who the sons of God married, you might look up the word "Adam", in other passages, and see that each and every single human being is called "Adam": both male and female of our human race are called "Adam", singly and corporately, and person, male or female, is a 'multiplied person' 'in' Adam.

The 'daughters and sons' of Adam only refer to the seed multiplied from the first created human being who was called (named) Adam, by the Creator -Genesis 5:2.

Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when Adam [men] began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of Adam [men] that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Genesis 5:2 and Malachi 2:15 show that we are all one being, in our spirit; "human"; but singly, we are multiplied 'persons'; and multiplied from the seed placed in the first male, through the genetically changed, cloned [in a fashion], female , according to the command to 'multiply' [our kind =Adam], given in Genesis 1:28; "And God blessed them [Adam, the male and female 'pair'], and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

So: there are 'persons' multiplied 'in' Adam; and some of the multiplied 'daughters in Adam'
were taken as wives by 'the sons of God' -and those angels were created to interact with mankind in the beginning, as 'watchers', Enoch said.


Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when [Hebrew] "Adam" began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them [born unto 'multiplied' Adam]..."

In Ezekiel 27:13; the word for men is also 'Adam', there, 'persons' [in-of] Adam were 'traded'.

So the sons of God -not the seed of Adam- took wives of the daughters of 'Adam' -not daughters of some 'men' in general, but daughters [of/in] Adam.

From the wording of Enoch, which original is lost, 'methinks' the fallen angels used a bit of cloning and genetic changing, themselves -a no-no!- to multiply their own 'spirit' beings through the female Adam persons they took as wives.

 

[elohiym]

It's too bad that Jude quotes the Book of Enoch.

Obviously, the book of Enoch is not inspired because we know that sin did not enter the world through fallen angels, but through Adam.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Are we to believe that the secrets of heaven are astrology and enchantments? That is what the plot of the Book of Enoch suggests.

The OT cannon was established at the time of Jesus, and the Book of Enoch was not part of it. I suggest that Christians stick to the OT canon included in the Bible.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

It's too bad that Jude quotes the Book of Enoch.

Obviously, the book of Enoch is not inspired because we know that sin did not enter the world through fallen angels, but through Adam.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Are we to believe that the secrets of heaven are astrology and enchantments? That is what the plot of the Book of Enoch suggests.

The OT cannon was established at the time of Jesus, and the Book of Enoch was not part of it. I suggest that Christians stick to the OT canon included in the Bible.

The Book of Enoch is quoted extensively in the Scriiptures, in the Old and New Testaments. If you are familiar with it, then the mystery is removed of some of the quotes made by the men of old -Job, for instance.

Jesus Christ quoted extensively from Enoch, also, as did Peter and Paul, James, and Jude, and many more -even the demons quoted it when they were afraid Jesus would cast them "into the pit before the appointed time!". -Enoch was given the appointment time to tell them of. In fact; Enoch was written for the fallen angels and their offspring, in the main, who were the nephillim -from whom Goliath was descended as a son of Anak, who came of the nephillim.


Enough of what is known through the Old and New Testaments verifies the fallen angels taking wives of the daughters of Adam.

I do not think the Book of Enoch is necessary for us, but the early Believers used it, as the Jews did, at that time -so I have read. It was quoted from extensively in the early Church writings, and the Roman Catholic church banned it -kind of disputes their theology, you know!

It was never banned by the Ethiopian Church, where the modern English translations were gotten from.

There is plentious Scripture in the Old and New Testaments to prove the truth of Scripture as taught; that the 'daughters' of multiplied Adam 'persons' were taken as wives by sons of God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Adam was created as a human son of God, male and female, and told to multiply his kind [=Adam kind] and to fill this planet (his kingdom, to rule it 'under' the creator). Redemption is about restoration and regeneration of the kingdom and of the sons of God who are brought back from the dead [in spirit] Adam, through the Living Christ, 'to the glory'.

Luke 3:38 says Adam was 'son of God': but since the fall, when the Presence of the indwelling glory departed from the corrupted Adam -and we all died in him, our firstborn, as his seed- we are no longer sons of God, which we were first to be, brought forth through the commanded multiplying (Malachi 2:15): that is what the second Adam is; 'Son of God', by being the New Creation human being who is brother to the dead ['in spirit'] 'Adam'; and He adopts (marries) all we who are born 'in Adam' into His Spirit of the New Creation Man [second Adam, last man, New Man, New Creation Man], by making us clean, in our being, through His blood of sprinkling on the Mercy Seat [His New Human flesh body], and adopting us by the regeneration in spirit, so that we may be called sons of God; which is a restoration of our 'being', 'back' to the purpose of our creation; which is to be dwelling places for the Father to indwell in His glory forever; and to dwell on this planet, our home, that He created and gave our human race, forever; that we were to multiply and fill [multiplying would have stopped when the planet was filled, cause that's in the command 'fill'], to inhabit forever as sons of God, which is to say, 'a house of God'.

Sons are the 'house' of a person who has a kingdom. Adam was made to be over this earth, as his kingdom, and to be a 'dwelling place for the glory of the Father'.

The house of Adam is dead, his kingdom is lost -sold into sin and slavery- and the Father departed from the kingdom and no longer indwells the entire kingdom in His Presence of glory.

Redemption is about the Ransom back; and the purchase price, and Who, what, how, when, and where: and it's all taught as symbols, types, and shadows in the oracles entrusted to the Jews.



.



.

 

[OlDove]

From the wording of Enoch, which original is lost, 'methinks' the fallen angels used a bit of cloning and genetic changing, themselves -a no-no!- to multiply their own 'spirit' beings through the female Adam persons they took as wives.

As the physical world deceives us. As the spirit not free to play a game? If the spirit is not from the physical, then it was there to plan out what this world would be like before the physical took form. Would it not?

 

[OlDove]

---If a Saint of God falls from God's Grace, that is a falling Angel.
*
-----------------Paul---
*

:cheers:
Grace is before being hired?