ECT The Neo-MAD's Ideas About Salvation Under the Law

[Jerry Shugart]

Those in the Neo-MAD camp teach that those who lived under the Law could not be saved apart from works. The source of their error is found in Cornelius Stam's book Things that Differ. He wrote:

"We have no illusions as to man's utter inability to please God by works as such in any age. Man has always been saved essentially by the grace of God, through faith. There could be no other way to be saved " [emphasis added] (Stam, Things That Differ, [Berean Literature Foundation, Twelfth Printing, 1985], p.15).​

Stam is right when he said that the only thing that is "essential" in order to be saved is faith. But then he says:

"Note carefully that while God refuses works for salvation today, He required them under other dispensations" [emphasis added] (Ibid., p.21).​

The word "require" means "to demand as necessary or essential" (Merriam-Webster Online).

Therefore Stam is saying that in other dispensations works were "essential" in order to be saved. That idea directly contradicts what he said earlier, that only "faith" is essential for salvation.

If "works" were essential for salvation during other dispensations then it cannot be said that salvation during those dispensations was "essentially by the grace of God through faith." That is because if "works" were essential then it is not of grace:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

Stam himself recognized this principle, writing that "Grace is not grace if mingled with works. The two principles are mutually exclusive (Rom. 4:4,5)" (Stam, Commentary on the Epistle of Paul to the Romans, [Berean Literature Foundation, Second Printing, 1984], p.87).

Peter understood that he was saved by grace, the same way that the Gentiles are saved. He said:

"But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are" (Acts 15:11).​

The idea that in other dispensations people could not be saved apart from works is easy to refute but even today those within the Neo-MAD camp still teach that in other dispensations no one could be saved apart from works.

The Neo-MAD camp is loaded with people who can best be described as "sheeple."

They are unable to think for themselves and continue in a failed attempt to prove that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works DESPITE the fact that they were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Are there any people from the Neo-MAD community who want to defend their idea that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works?

 

[john w]

Well, well, well....Surprise, surprise, surprise, Gomer, as Acts 2/Reppy/"it all says the same thing"/John 3 Nicky the elf/clown, the lead sower of discord amongst the brethren, weighs in again, discord being his "ministry," his wares, and bamboozles us all again, with his cute little "Neo-MAD" stumper!!!

Those in the Neo-MAD camp teach that those who lived under the Law could not be saved apart from works. The source of their error is found in Cornelius Stam's book Things that Differ. He wrote:......

Vs.

"Paul Saddler of the Berean Bible Society(Cornelius Stam's colleague at the BBS) writes...."-Nicky Shugart quoting Saddler 567 times in the last year

The word "require" means "to demand as necessary or essential" (Merriam-Webster Online).

Wow, Nicky! We did not know that! Where would we be without your "scholarship,"and you telling us where to obtain a dictionary, and thus clarifying, eggecating us country bumpkins, what "require" means, consistent with you trotting out all your "giants," which you worship, being the man worshiper that you are, spamming 85% of your "spaghetti on the wall" "posts," of what others say, such as "sir" Robert Anderson, Paul Saddler, "The" Greek, "The" Greek Lexicon, Strong's, J.C. O'Hair, ................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................, and then, in hypocrisy, your continued "big Top" clown act, cry, with a "personal attack," which you spam to others on every third "post:":

The Neo-MAD camp is loaded with people who can best be described as "sheeple" They are unable to think for themselves.

....right after spamming what 43 other "scholars," such as "sir" Robert Anderson.........................................................................................think.

Now, Nicky-which side of your troll face would you like slapped?

is easy to refute

Another one of this clown's "debate enders," similar to his "There can be no doubt whatsoever....If you were honest, you cannot deny.....blah blah blah..."

Then, as part of his "trifecta," the gnome/troll, as is his MO on every one of his duplicate threads, to prop up interest in his dying threads, that are largely ignored, to prop up his "The audience will be so impressed by my ability to start great threads!" addiction, he attempts to bait others in the dispensational camp, with his tough guy "challenge," such as...

Are there any people from the Neo-MAD community who want to defend their idea that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works?

My consul, you meanies within the Neo-MAD camp, is to ignore this clown Nicky Shugart. Nicky, you should replace your "sir" Bobby Anderson avatar, with this-smile, Bozo:

Please think for us, Nicky....Please?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Sonny boy, do you really think that salvation by grace through faith is consistent with the idea that some people who are saved on that principle must do works in order to be saved?

 

[Tambora]

Sonny boy, do you really think that salvation by grace through faith is consistent with the idea that some people who are saved on that principle must do works in order to be saved?

The difference between the Kingdom and the BOC is that one can be kicked out of the Kingdom for sinning, but one cannot be kicked out of the BOC.
To remain in the Kingdom requires works, but to remain in the BOC does not.

 

[john w]

Sonny boy, do you really think that salvation by grace through faith is consistent with the idea that some people who are saved on that principle must do works in order to be saved?

Sorry, confused old man Nicky, as weeze uneggecated Neo's cain't think for ourselves.

Get lost, sower of discord pest. You are quite dead weight on TOL, bible corrector/agnostic/mystic/blender.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The difference between the Kingdom and the BOC is that one can be kicked out of the Kingdom for sinning, but one cannot be kicked out of the BOC.
To remain in the Kingdom requires works, but to remain in the BOC does not.

Where do you get these strange ideas?

By the Lord Jesus' own words to the Jews who lived under the law we can know that the Jews who believed would never come into condemnation:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).​

The Lord also said the following to the Jews:

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (Jn.6:37).​

 

[Tambora]

Where do you get these strange ideas?

From scripture.
Not strange at all.

Scripture reveals that one can be cast out of the kingdom, that the kingdom can fall, can be taken away, and the kingdom can be restored.

The BOC is never restored because it never fell, and one cannot be kicked out.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Scripture reveals that one can be cast out of the kingdom, that the kingdom can fall, can be taken away, and the kingdom can be restored.

So the Lord Jesus was wrong when He said that those who believe will not come into condemnation?

What about what He said to the Jews who lived under the law here?:

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

The Lord wasn't speaking of physical death because believers die physically. The death of which He spoke is the second death:

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev.21:8).​

Scripture reveals that one can be cast out of the kingdom

Please answer the following words of the Lord Jesus, a verse which I gave you earlier:

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (Jn.6:37).​

 

[DAN P]

Those in the Neo-MAD camp teach that those who lived under the Law could not be saved apart from works. The source of their error is found in Cornelius Stam's book Things that Differ. He wrote:

"We have no illusions as to man's utter inability to please God by works as such in any age. Man has always been saved essentially by the grace of God, through faith. There could be no other way to be saved " [emphasis added] (Stam, Things That Differ, [Berean Literature Foundation, Twelfth Printing, 1985], p.15).​

Stam is right when he said that the only thing that is "essential" in order to be saved is faith. But then he says:

"Note carefully that while God refuses works for salvation today, He required them under other dispensations" [emphasis added] (Ibid., p.21).​

The word "require" means "to demand as necessary or essential" (Merriam-Webster Online).

Therefore Stam is saying that in other dispensations works were "essential" in order to be saved. That idea directly contradicts what he said earlier, that only "faith" is essential for salvation.

If "works" were essential for salvation during other dispensations then it cannot be said that salvation during those dispensations was "essentially by the grace of God through faith." That is because if "works" were essential then it is not of grace:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

Stam himself recognized this principle, writing that "Grace is not grace if mingled with works. The two principles are mutually exclusive (Rom. 4:4,5)" (Stam, Commentary on the Epistle of Paul to the Romans, [Berean Literature Foundation, Second Printing, 1984], p.87).

Peter understood that he was saved by grace, the same way that the Gentiles are saved. He said:

"But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are" (Acts 15:11).​

QUOTE]

Hi Jerry and the KJV has it different and reads , But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved , even as they !!

Better check it again ??

dan p

 

[Tambora]

So the Lord Jesus was wrong when He said that those who believe will not come into condemnation?

Nothing I said indicates I believe Jesus was wrong.
Please answer why you think I thought that.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Nothing I said indicates I believe Jesus was wrong.
Please answer why you think I thought that.

You said that the Jewish believers can be cast out of the kingdom but you failed to address the Lord Jesus words which proves that your idea is wrong:

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (Jn.6:37).​

Besides that, the first century Jewish believers were made members of the Body of Christ when the middle wall of partition was broken down in the first century:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

According to your ideas the first century Jewish believers were not members of the Body of Christ but Paul makes it plain that both the Gentile believers and the Jewish believers were reconciled unto God in one Body, the Body of Christ.

Where did you ever get the strange idea that the first century Jewish believers were not made members of the Body of Christ?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi Jerry and the KJV has it different and reads , But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved , even as they !!

The KJV has it wrong because the context indicates that Peter's salvation was not future but instead he was already saved:

"God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:8-11).​

Peter had already received the Holy Spirit and his heart had already been purified by his faith so therefore his salvation did not remain in the future, as the KJV has it.

 

[Tambora]

You said that the Jewish believers can be cast out of the kingdom

I said folks can be kicked out of the kingdom because scripture says they can be kicked out.
Perhaps you like to skip over verses like Matt 8:12

but you failed to address the Lord Jesus words which proves that your idea is wrong:

Matt 8:12 is the words of Jesus.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I said folks can be kicked out of the kingdom because scripture says they can be kicked out.
Perhaps you like to skip over verses like Matt 8:12

Later the Lord Jesus told us exactly who will be cast out of that kingdom:

"The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father" (Mt.13:38-43).​

The kingdom spoken of here cannot possibly be the kingdom of John 3:3 because only those who are born again can enter that kingdom. The kingdom which is made up of both believers and unbelievers is the universal kingdom:

"The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all" (Ps.103:19).​

The Lord is in total control over the universe which He created, so therefore He rules over it all. Here is more Scriptual evidence of this principle:

"Thine, O LORD is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all" (1Chron.29:11).​

The Jewish believers already possessed eternal life (1 Jn.5:11), and the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish (Jn.10:28).

He also told them the following which contradict your idea that the Jewish believers can be kicked out of the kingdom:

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (Jn.6:37).​

Now that I have addressed the verse which you cited ytou will tell us why some of those to whom He gives eternal life can perish and why you think that some of those who have received eternal life will be cast out of the kingdom despite the Lord Jesus' words to the contrary.

 

[Danoh]

The KJV has it wrong because the context indicates that Peter's salvation was not future but instead he was already saved:

"God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:8-11).​

Peter had already received the Holy Spirit and his heart had already been purified by his faith so therefore his salvation did not remain in the future, as the KJV has it.

Yo, incompetent, the KJV does not have it wrong.

Because the passage is referring to a principle not to a time-frame.

As in "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

That is a principle absent of time-frame.

As is the case in the following passage...

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

As in...

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

And so on.

What we have here is a case of both sides being wrong about the KJV's wording.

You in your incompetent assertion it is a bad translation.

Others in their incompetent conclusion it is referring to a time-frame.

Acts 17: 11, 12.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yo, incompetent, the KJV does not have it wrong.

Because the passage is referring to a principle not to a time-frame.

So the following translation is not referring to the future?:

"But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they" (Acts 15:11; KJV).​

You are about as dumb as they come!

 

[Danoh]

So the following translation is not referring to the future?:

"But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they" (Acts 15:11; KJV).​

You are about as dumb as they come!

Sticks and stones, Neo-Jerry - sticks and stones.

:chuckle:

And no - it is not referring to the future.

It is referring to a principle.

The same principle Paul later reminded Peter of in the following...

Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Put your endless books and commentaries "about" away, Neo-Jerry - and while you're at it; put away also your ever obvious "well, what it means to me is..."

Try a Bible, for a change.

Isaiah 8:20

 

[DAN P]

So the following translation is not referring to the future?:

"But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they" (Acts 15:11; KJV).​

You are about as dumb as they come!

Hi Jerry and there are only 2 verbs in Acts 15:11 !!

#1 WE BELIEVE / PISTEUO , is in the PRESENT TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE and in the INDICATIVE MOOD !!

#2 , The second verb is TO BE SAVED / SOZO is in the AOTIST TENSE or what we called the PAST TENSE and in the PASSIVE VOICE and in the INFINITIVE MOOD !!

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

#2 , The second verb is TO BE SAVED / SOZO is in the AOTIST TENSE or what we called the PAST TENSE and in the PASSIVE VOICE and in the INFINITIVE MOOD !!

Yes, and it is obvious that the following translation is not speaking of something which happened in the past:

"But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they" (Acts 15:11; KJV).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And no - it is not referring to the future.

Only in your delusionsal mind:

"But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they"​

(Acts 15:11; KJV).​

You are about as dumb as they come!