ECT THE INCREDIBLE SCOFIELD AND HIS BOOK

[northwye]

THE INCREDIBLE SCOFIELD AND HIS BOOK - The PreteristSite
preteristsite.com/docs/canfield1.pdf, 1988

At the Preterist Site, Canfield's book is divided into seven pdf
files, which apparently do not copy and paste as text:

http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/canfield1.pdf
http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/canfield2.pdf
http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/canfield3.pdf
http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/canfield4.pdf
http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/canfield5.pdf
http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/canfield6.pdf
http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/canfield7.pdf

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own
understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct
thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart
from evil." Proverbs 3: 5-7

John Darby, C. I. Scofield and Lewis Sperry Chafer leaned unto their
own understanding, and created a man-made theological system that is
often called dispensationalism. It has also been called Christian
Zionism, postponement theology, rotating theology, dual covenant theology and sometimes the rapture cult.. These classical
dispensationalists postulated that God has two distinct and different
peoples, "All Israel," or all of physical Israel, and the "church."
They also postulated as a second of their starting assumptions that
all scripture is to be interpreted literally. Therefore, every time
the word Israel appears in the Old and New Testaments, it must always
refer to physical Israel, the literal and physical descendants of
Abraham, not everyone who is in Christ as the spiritual seed of
Abraham (Galatians 3: 28-29).

The postulates of dispensationalism do not clearly derive from specific texts in the New Testament. Here are statements on dispensationalism by two of its main founders. Where, in the New Testament are specific scriptures that are explicit in supporting these doctrines?

"Not one instance exists of a 'spiritual' or figurative fulfilment of
prophecy... Jerusalem is always Jerusalem, Israel is always Israel, Zion
is always Zion... Prophecies may never be spiritualised, but are always
literal." C.I. Scofield, Scofield Bible Correspondence Course (Chicago,
Moody Bible Institute, 1907), pp. 45-46.

In Christian Zionism Israel is always Israel, that is, it is always Old
Covenant Israel for the followers of John Darby C.I. Scofield and Lewis S.
Chafer, and cannot be the Israel of God, (Galatians 6 : 16). Israel
cannot be anything for the Christian Zionists but the multitude of physical
Old Covenant Israel, defined as Israel of the flesh by the physical
bloodline. In Christian Zionism there are no children of the promise
counted for the seed as different from Israel of the flesh (Romans 9: 6-8).

Israel cannot be the ministration of death, the ministration of
condemnation which is done away with and there is no Israel as the
ministration of the Spirit in II Corinthians 3: 7-11 for the Christian
Zionists. And contrary to the Christian Zionists the Old Covenant was
not done away with
as Hebrews 10: 9 says.

"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal
kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity,
'...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer,
Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp.
315-323..

Chafer says "The nation Israel, God's chosen earthly people, to whom at
least five-sixths of the Bible is addressed and with whom the great
covenants are made (Rom 9:4-5) -- which covenants secure to that nation a
land, a nation, a throne, a King, and a kingdom -- are now scattered
throughout all the nations of the earth (Deut 4:26-28; Deut 28:63-68; Jer
16:13), and are to remain scattered until they (a remnant; ed.) are
gathered into their own land (Deut 30:3-6; Isa 11:11-12; Isa 14:1-3; Isa
60:1-22; Jer 23:6-8; Jer 32:37-44; Jer 33:7-9; Eze 37:21-25; Mic 4:6-8)
under the reign of Christ Jesus at His return."

Lewis S. Chafer refers to physical Israel as God's earthy chosen people.

Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has
"...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93
(October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447

Since, for dispensationalism, physical Israel, including the majority who
rejected and still reject Christ, remain as God's people with the
strong implication that they are still the chosen people, therefore
God could not have divorced physical Israel for going after other gods
and not obeying his commandments as Jeremiah 3: 8 says. And God could
not have re-created or transformed physical Israel into Israel reborn
in Jesus Christ as the parable of the potter says in Jeremiah 18: 1-6.
God could not have said in Matthew 23: 38 that the house of Israel is
"left unto you desolate" because of false doctrines and rejection of
Christ.

Look at C.I. Scofield's reference notes in his Scofield Reference Bible, for example, for Galatians 4: 24-26.

The link for this online Scofield Bible is:
http://www.studylight.org/com/srn/view.cgi?book=ga&chapter=004

Note that Scofield does not comment on the meaning of "Jerusalem which
now is, and is in bondage with her children," but only explains that
Agar is Hagar.

He does not say anything at all about Galatians 4: 26, " But Jerusalem
which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

Scofield does not comment on all texts, but only on some, but his
interpretations on his selected texts promote dispensationalism.

Because Scofield's dispensationalist comments, or interpretations,
appear on the same page with the word of God, his interpretations have
tended to carry greater weight than those of the more usual
commentaries.

Since the 1909, and 1917 Scofield Reference Bibles were so important
for the spread of dispensationalism, or Christian Zionism, in the
evangelical denominations of America, and in some others, then the
question is why did a publisher like Oxford University Press publish
these books?

Joseph M. Canfield, wrote The Incredible Scofield, 1988. See: http://www.eaec.org/bookstore/books/joseph_canfield_biography.htm

John S. Torell quotes Canfield as saying ""Scofield seemed to
have access to money above what he earned as a minister. Research
shows that one of his backers was a well-known Jewish lawyer from New
York, Samuel Untermeyer (1858-1941). He was a criminal attorney, but
he was more well known for his political connections, bribery, and for
being a fanatical Zionist. In 1901, Scofield was offered a membership
in the Lotus Club of New York, a prestigious club in the literary
circles of the United States catering to non-Christians. This was not
a club in which one applied for membership, rather, you had to be
invited and have a sponsor. Why would a wealthy German Jew like
Untermeyer living in America sponsor Scofield and spend money on a man
who was working on a new Bible translation and preaching Jesus Christ?"

"John Darby had been financially supported earlier, and since
Scofield was the successor to Darby, they could influence him to work
hard and make this teaching central in all Christian churches."

"The Lotos Club is an exclusive club of a sort more common in London,
as so often described in British literature. The phenomenon, while
present in the United States, has never developed on this side of the
Atlantic to the extent it did in England...The club's purpose as noted
in Article I, Section II of its Constitution, was:

"The primary object of this Club shall be to promote social
intercourse among journalists, artists, and members of the musical and
dramatic professions, and representatives, amateurs, and friends of
Literature, Science, and the Fine Arts..."...

"The Club's Literacy Committee, when Scofield's application was
presented, included Samuel Untermeyer (1858-1941), a notorious
criminal lawyer. Untermeyer's accomplishments, described in Who's Who
in America take up more than two columns. There is not one activity
listed which would suggest that Untermeyer could have appreciated
either Scofield's Bible Correspondence Course of his magazine."

"It defies understanding that an "obscure" pastor from the
hinterlands, whose literary output up to 1901 consisted of very
sectarian booklets, articles and courses, would be considered
acceptable in the Lotos Club."

"The selection of Scofield for admission to the Lotos Club, which
could not have been sought by Scofield, strengthens the suspicion
which has cropped up before, that someone was directing the career of
C.I. Scofield. Such direction probably was motivated by concerns
remote from fidelity to the person, work and truth of Jesus Christ."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Untermyer "Samuel Untermeyer[
was a Jewish-American lawyer and civic leader as well as a self-made
millionaire....Untermyer advocated the Zionist liberation movement and
was President of the Keren Hayesod, the agency through which the
movement was then and still is conducted in America.[9]......

In these pages from The Incredible Scofield and His Book, another
figure who is important for the publication of Scofield's Reference
Bible appears, Arno Gaebelein, who sought financial support for
Scofield's work on the Reference Bible from a number of wealthy men.
Gaebelein is Arno Gaebelein.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arno_C._Gaebelein Arno Clemens
Gaebelein (1861-1945) was a Methodist minister in the United States of
America. He was a prominent teacher and conference speaker. "

Canfield says "...the Bible project was not originally based on the
support of a broad spectrum of the Christian constituency. It was
supported from a select group who were economically able to finance
special ideas and ride ideological hobbies."

A group of wealthy men, and at least one Zionist, Samuel
Untermeyer, supported Scofield's work on the Reference Bible.

Without that directing and help, Scofield probably would not have
gotten his Reference Bible published by Oxford University Press, whose
prestige helped sell the book and its ability to transmit the
dispensationalist man-made system to millions of American Christians
since 1909.

And many American dispensationalist missionaries to other
nations have planted dispensationalist churches in other lands. The
publication of the Scofield Reference Bible might be one date that
marks the start of the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4.
Another possible date would be the earlier Niagra Bible Conferences
held annually from 1876 to 1897. The Conferences helped to establish
dispensationalism in the U.S.

 

[Interplanner]

North:
funny you would include this:
The
publication of the Scofield Reference Bible might be one date that
marks the start of the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4.

...because Paul was talking about the 1st century situation of the destruction of Jerusalem and showing them that Christ had not returned because those events needed to happen over in Judea...

 

[northwye]

"..because Paul was talking about the 1st century situation of the destruction of Jerusalem and showing them that Christ had not returned because those events needed to happen over in Judea..."

No, that Paul was talking only about a falling away in the First Century is a false doctrine of preterism.

There is nothing in II Thessalonians chapters 1-2 about the Destruction of Jerusalem. Paul gives us no indication of a time when the apostasy was to occur in II Thessalonians 2: 1-4.

He does not say anything about the prophetic revelation he had as a basis for making the statements he makes in II Thessalonians 2: 1-4.

There is no scripture that I know of saying that a prophecy must always have only one time of fulfillment.

I am beginning to see some similarity between the preterist system and that of Christian Zionism. One possible similarity is what Paul writes about in II Corinthians 3: 6, "...for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life."

There are some literal prophecies about the coming of Christ in the Old Testament, which were fulfilled once in a literal way. But to regard New Testament prophecy as being of the letter in the sense that it must have a one time specific fulfillment in a literal way is wrong.

Another similarity with Christian Zionism and saying that II Thessalonians 2: 1-4 is about "the 1st century situation of the destruction of Jerusalem" is that this is very vague and may not be relevant to the timing of the apostasy at all. This is the kind of thing the Christian Zionists sometimes do. Where in the NT is there a statement about a falling away or major apostasy in the First Century at the time of the fall of Jerusalem, assuming that the falling away is by the Christians?

 

[Interplanner]

"..because Paul was talking about the 1st century situation of the destruction of Jerusalem and showing them that Christ had not returned because those events needed to happen over in Judea..."

No, that Paul was talking only about a falling away in the First Century is a false doctrine of preterism.

There is nothing in II Thessalonians chapters 1-2 about the Destruction of Jerusalem. Paul gives us no indication of a time when the apostasy was to occur in II Thessalonians 2: 1-4.

He does not say anything about the prophetic revelation he had as a basis for making the statements he makes in II Thessalonians 2: 1-4.

There is no scripture that I know of saying that a prophecy must always have only one time of fulfillment.

I am beginning to see some similarity between the preterist system and that of Christian Zionism. One possible similarity is what Paul writes about in II Corinthians 3: 6, "...for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life."

There are some literal prophecies about the coming of Christ in the Old Testament, which were fulfilled once in a literal way. But to regard New Testament prophecy as being of the letter in the sense that it must have a one time specific fulfillment in a literal way is wrong.

The problem at that church was a report Christ had already returned. But how could he have, when the figure of Dan 8 (the leader of the 'rebellion that desolates') had not yet come and claimed the temple (that temple in Jerusalem, at that time). That is that evil person. As we know from Christ's own experience, to claim to be Messiah was a claim to be god, as Judaism saw it. Well, 3 of the zealots did just that and pathetically all of them called on "God's" help to defeat the other 2! They also claimed signs and wonders, besides the critical help from God to liberate Jerusalem.

All this had a timestamp; it needed to happen in the 490 years, although the last week is less exact.

Josephus read Dan 8-9 this way; Caiaphas too, and tried to circumvent it in Jn 11 and 18 by hoping the death of Jesus would 'save' Israel from destruction.

I am not a preterist who says the 2nd coming happened in or right after 70 AD. I stick with history. The DofJ happened, but not the obviously world-wide judgement and start of the NHNE of the 2nd coming.

Watch out for the multiple fulfillment thing because it is weird (as in irrational, as in Picasso, or Salvador Dali) to have him talking about things so vital, direct and ominous, but then for it to be about X000 years in the future. who does that?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

North:
funny you would include this:
The
publication of the Scofield Reference Bible might be one date that
marks the start of the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4.

...because Paul was talking about the 1st century situation of the destruction of Jerusalem and showing them that Christ had not returned because those events needed to happen over in Judea...

:chuckle:

 

[northwye]

"From the time of Christ’s rejection by Israel until the time when God deals specifically with Israel again in the seventieth week it is not possible to refer to a remnant of the nation Israel." Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, 1965, by J. Dwight Pentecost

Christian Zionism does not deal with the remnant as a small number who continue to be faithful to Christ in a time of apostasy, except the Christian Zionists do have their own version of the remnant called the 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14. They link that remnant to their end time scenario saying that God will turn back to the physical descendants of Abraham to deal with them again. So, the 144,000 in Christian Zionism are all of the physical bloodline. They are literally 144,000 "Billy Grahams" of the physical bloodline. I wonder if all of them are also high level Freemasons?

And Christian Zionism is focused upon the multitude. They hold up "All Israel" of Romans 11: 26 as being all of those of the physical bloodline from Abraham, not acknowledging Galatians 3: 3, 16-18, 26-29. The Christian Zionists likewise focus upon the multitude in the Church,

As far as I know, the false doctrine called preterism does not deal with the remnant either.

But the New Covenant began from a remnant of Israel, Old Covenant Israel, in Romans 11: 1-5. And in Revelation 12: 15-17 a remnant during the New Covenant keeps the commandments of God, and among apostasy by the multitude, the remnant keeps the testimony of Christ, implying that the remnant continues in God's plan of redemption, while the majority fall off into false doctrines. Revelation 12: 15 says metaphorically that the Serpent-Dragon casts out of his mouth a flood. Meaning he inspires his false prophets in the fake churches to teach false doctrines. Matthew 24: 11 says many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. II Thessalonians 2: 1-4 says that the day of Christ will not come before there is a falling away - ελθη η αποστασια πρωτον, "shall have come the apostasy first."

Paul says as a prophetic revelation from Christ that before Christ returns there will be apostasy. II Thessalonians 2: 1-4 is not the only text predicting an apostasy or more than one time of apostasy. Luke 13: 20-21 says "And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?
21. It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."

Luke 13: 20-21 is in the language of metaphor. But its not hard to find the meaning of leaven. Look at Matthew 16: 6-12.

In I Timothy 4: 1-2 Paul says in the latter times some will depart from the faith,, speak lies and their conscience will be seared with a hot iron. This sounds like an apostasy, when those claiming to be Christians argue against the Truth and teach false doctrines and as a correlate, they lose Christian morality, they have no conscience, like a psychopath.

In II Timothy 3: 5,7-8 Paul as prophetic revelation describes the traits of members of the "fake church" in the end times as having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof, not being able to come to the knowledge of the truth, and resisting the truth. This also sounds like the apostasy of II Thessalonians 2: 1-4

II Timothy 4: 3-4 says the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, and will turn their ears away from the truth. This too is describing a time of apostasy.

Ii Peter 2: 1-3 says there shall be false prophets among you, who will bring in damnable heresies, the truth will be spoken of in an evil way, and the false prophets will υμας εμπορευσονται.

υμας υμας εμπορευσονται, or, they will make merchandise of you,is metaphoric. εμπορευσονται, or emporeusontsi, is future tense, middle voice and indicative mode. It is from the word εμποροι, emporoi, found in Revelation 18: 23, merchants, or especially merchants who deal with foreign imports and exports, perhaps big merchants. In II Peter 2: 3 emporeusontsi could mean to exploit, but make merchandise of you as a metaphor for reducing "you" to a lower spiritual state, is more powerful.

And again II Peter 2: 1-3 is about a time of apostasy.

 

[Interplanner]

"From the time of Christ’s rejection by Israel until the time when God deals specifically with Israel again in the seventieth week it is not possible to refer to a remnant of the nation Israel." Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, 1965, by J. Dwight Pentecost

Christian Zionism does not deal with the remnant. The Christian Zionists do have their own version of the remnant called the 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14. They link that remnant to their end time scenario saying that God will turn back to the physical descendants of Abraham to deal with them again. So, the 144,000 in Christian Zionism are all of the physical bloodline. They are literally 144,000 "Billy Grahams" of the physical bloodline. I wonder if all of them are also high level Freemasons?

And Christian Zionism is focused upon the multitude. They hold up "All Israel" of Romans 11: 26 as being all of those of the physical bloodline from Abraham, not acknowledging Galatians 3: 3, 16-18, 26-29. The Christian Zionists likewise focus upon the multitude in the Church,

As far as I know, the false doctrine called preterism does not deal with the remnant either.

But the New Covenant began from a remnant of Israel, Old Covenant Israel, in Romans 11: 1-5. And in Revelation 12: 15-17 a remnant during the New Covenant keeps the commandments of God, and among apostasy by the multitude, the remnant keeps the testimony of Christ, implying that the remnant continues in God's plan of redemption, while the majority fall off into false doctrines. Revelation 12: 15 says metaphorically that the Serpent-Dragon casts out of his mouth a flood. Meaning he inspires his false prophets in the fake churches to teach false doctrines. Matthew 24: 11 says many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. II Thessalonians 2: 1-4 says that the day of Christ will not come before there is a falling away - ελθη η αποστασια πρωτον, "shall have come the apostasy first."

Paul says as a prophetic revelation from Christ that before Christ returns there will be apostasy. II Thessalonians 2: 1-4 is not the only text predicting an apostasy or more than one time of apostasy. Luke 13: 20-21 says "And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?
21. It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."

Luke 13: 20-21 is in the language of metaphor. But its not hard to find the meaning of leaven. Look at Matthew 16: 6-12.

In I Timothy 4: 1-2 Paul says in the latter times some will depart from the faith,, speak lies and their conscience will be seared with a hot iron. This sounds like an apostasy, when those claiming to be Christians argue against the Truth and teach false doctrines and as a correlate, they lose Christian morality, they have no conscience, like a psychopath.

In II Timothy 3: 5,7-8 Paul as prophetic revelation describes the traits of members of the "fake church" in the end times as having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof, not being able to come to the knowledge of the truth, and resisting the truth. This also sounds like the apostasy of II Thessalonians 2: 1-4

II Timothy 4: 3-4 says the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, and will turn their ears away from the truth. This too is describing a time of apostasy.

Ii Peter 2: 1-3 says there shall be false prophets among you, who will bring in damnable heresies, the truth will be spoken of in an evil way, and the false prophets will υμας εμπορευσονται.

υμας υμας εμπορευσονται, or, they will make merchandise of you,is metaphoric. εμπορευσονται, or emporeusontsi, is future tense, middle voice and indicative mode. It is from the word εμποροι, emporoi, found in Revelation 18: 23, merchants, or especially merchants who deal with foreign imports and exports, perhaps big merchants. In II Peter 2: 3 emporeusontsi could mean to exploit, but make merchandise of you as a metaphor for reducing "you" to a lower spiritual state, is more powerful.

And again II Peter 2: 1-3 is about a time of apostasy.

Timing is everything, North. These Peter's verses would first be spoken of his times. This raises the next question: is the 'his coming' that they scoff the past one or the upcoming one? Why can it not be the past one, in which they are ridiculing that the Gospel event was the fulfillment of the 'coming' of Messiah? Isn't this the writer that says angels wish they could look upon the event but are not allowed? The 'coming' in this letter has already been identified as the Gospel in 1:16.

But because of the comparisons to the flood, it probably is the coming in judgement, and then I have this thought: that Judaism's zealots thought they would win (liberate Israel) and 'Messiah' as taught by the Christians would surely not return in judgement; so Peter is referring to that kind of scoffing. 'Everything will continue as it has since creation.'. (Once again notice the contrast with Judaism and corollary contrast with 2P2P!).

btw, although there is material here to use against evolution in modern times, notice that these scoffers say 'since creation...'

 

[northwye]

"These Peter's verses would first be spoken of his times. "

This is a preterist interpretation of II Peter 2: 1-3, that New Testament prophecy always deals with the time in which it was written.

A major apostasy for Christianity did not occur until after the Edict of Milan in AD 313, or in AD 325, at the Council of Nicea, which tried to unify the Roman Church.

A second time of apostasy began in the 19th century with a number of new and heretical doctrines. Mary Baker Eddy (1821-1910), Ellen G. White (1827-1915), Edward Irving (1792 –1834), John Darby (1800 -1882), Charles T. Russell (1852-1916),
and C.I. Scofield (1843 -1921) were some of the major false prophets of the 19th century who influenced Christians. The most
influential 19th century false doctrines were the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, Christian Science and Dispensationalism.. Dispensationalism became the most popular of these 19th century movements and took over, by the mid 20th century, the majority of protestant evangelical denominations.

It may be that preterism, like Christian Zionism, avoids acknowledging that there was the beginning of an apostasy in the 19th century, which soon resulted in the dispensationalist takeover of many evangelical denominations, that was a major apostasy. To acknowledge that apostasy might be to acknowledge that Christian Zionism and preterism are false doctrines, and that cannot be done.

In not acknowledging the major apostasy when Christian Zionism took over so many evangelical denominations, Christian Zionism and preterism also refuse to acknowledge that all the New Testament prophecies listed in post number 6 can be applied to this recent falling away..

And not acknowledging that there has been a major apostasy in the 19th and 20th centuries means also that preterism and Christian Zionism would not focus upon a remnant of Israel in our time which keeps the testimony of Christ and follows the Lamb whithersoever he goeth when the multitude falls away into apostasy.

Revelation 18: 23 and Revelation 18: 4 are important texts that have to be interpreted by the false prophets of Christian Zionism and preterism in a way which makes them not say that God is calling those who are his out of the church, and that church is called Babylon. Revelation 18: 23, among other things, identifies Babylon as the place where the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride were once heard, but are no longer heard. What is that place?

 

[Interplanner]

"These Peter's verses would first be spoken of his times. "

This is a preterist interpretation of II Peter 2: 1-3, that New Testament prophecy always deals with the time in which it was written.

A major apostasy for Christianity did not occur until after the Edict of Milan in AD 313, or in AD 325, at the Council of Nicea, which tried to unify the Roman Church.

A second time of apostasy began in the 19th century with a number of new and heretical doctrines. Mary Baker Eddy (1821-1910), Ellen G. White (1827-1915), Edward Irving (1792 –1834), John Darby (1800 -1882), Charles T. Russell (1852-1916),
and C.I. Scofield (1843 -1921) were some of the major false prophets of the 19th century who influenced Christians. The most
influential 19th century false doctrines were the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, Christian Science and Dispensationalism.. Dispensationalism became the most popular of these 19th century movements and took over, by the mid 20th century, the majority of protestant evangelical denominations.

It may be that preterism, like Christian Zionism, avoids acknowledging that there was the beginning of an apostasy in the 19th century, which soon resulted in the dispensationalist takeover of many evangelical denominations, that was a major apostasy. To acknowledge that apostasy might be to acknowledge that Christian Zionism and preterism are false doctrines, and that cannot be done.

In not acknowledging the major apostasy when Christian Zionism took over so many evangelical denominations, Christian Zionism and preterism also refuse to acknowledge that all the New Testament prophecies listed in post number 6 can be applied to this recent falling away..

And not acknowledging that there has been a major apostasy in the 19th and 20th centuries means also that preterism and Christian Zionism would not focus upon a remnant of Israel in our time which keeps the testimony of Christ and follows the Lamb whithersoever he goeth when the multitude falls away into apostasy.

Revelation 18: 23 and Revelation 18: 4 are important texts that have to be interpreted by the false prophets of Christian Zionism and preterism in a way which makes them not say that God is calling those who are his out of the church, and that church is called Babylon. Revelation 18: 23, among other things, identifies Babylon as the place where the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride were once heard, but are no longer heard. What is that place?

There is nothing necessary in the apostasy as a word to spring to the future with. Paul said it was going to happen shortly (2 th 2:3, 2 Tim 2). it is what Mt24A speaks of several times. There could be and have been later ones, but there is nothing that eliminates the immediate generation. Believing himself to be in the true Israel, Paul would be speaking of falling away from it.

In the Luke (Paul) telling of cleansing the temple, you have an interesting timelapse manifested. 'you have made it a den of thieves' in which the word 'leistes' is used. Leistes are not your common thief. They are mercenaries, brigands, insurrectionists, terrorists. He was referring to what would happen to temple in that generation again. He was identifying when the 'rebellion that desolates' (Dan 8) would happen. It was not rebelling against the overseeing power, although that happened (zealots vs Rome). It was the rebellion that departed from the new Moses who would give them a final warning, Acts 3, of which both zealots and Pharisees were part.

 

[Danoh]

A thought, you two...

It is clear as day to me, northwye and IP, that what you are each referring to as some supposed apostasy from the faith on the part of the above individuals, had actually been an attempt on each their part to return it to each their perception of what it had been prior to what it became and that both of you two hold to as having been said faith.

Despite the irony that both of you also assert a different "original" supposedly 1st Century understanding...

Both Peter and Paul are clearly dealing with a departure already underway in their day.

A departure from the faith they had eached preached; a departure out of which arose the error in an earlier form that you two each now subscribe to an later version of.

In your above mentioned names, northwye; all but Darby, failed to begin to recover what was lost with the apostasy that Peter and Paul were each describing as already underway in their own day.

In what little of the writings of the above individuals I have read, Darby's recurrent pattern throughout is the only one largely based on an objectivity that seeks to determine what's what, absent of reading into a thing.

An objectivity you two failed to exercise because you read him from within what you had already begun to subscribe to as a supposedly sound approach by the time you each began looking into these other movements.

As for Darby's supposed funding; it is neither the first, nor the last time in history that some outside party with ulterior motives has supported a just cause.

As when Felix kept hearing Paul out because he had hoped to profit financially from Paul.

Acts 24:24 And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ. 24:25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee. 24:26 He hoped also that money should have been given him of Paul, that he might loose him: wherefore he sent for him the oftener, and communed with him.

Or as when those who know what a person is asserting is right, do not voice their support of it out of what is actually a duplicity on their part, for one reason or another.

John 9:20 His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind: 9:21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself. 9:22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.

You two need to strongly consider that the snare of a misreading into things you both continue to fall prey to is due to each your continued failure to look at things from all sides before allowing yourselves your conclusions.

Again - in the above, you are both asserting that each your supposed pre-Darby understanding is the "sound" one.

You both fail to see the irony in that, given your assertions against those who do not hold either of your views on some things.

Nevertheless, thank you both for your above, as, personally; I continue find issues of perception ever fascinating.

 

[ZacharyB]

John Darby, C. I. Scofield, Lewis Sperry Chafer ...
... these boys were way off base! ... Isn't it wonderful?
Lots of variety for da folks to choose from.
This is what Satan does.
Lots of folks will choose the wrong path.

 

[Interplanner]

John Darby, C. I. Scofield, Lewis Sperry Chafer ...
... these boys were way off base! ... Isn't it wonderful?
Lots of variety for da folks to choose from.
This is what Satan does.
Lots of folks will choose the wrong path.

Like Darwin and Lyell, they have that 19-20th century superiority complex that 'no one really understood the data until they came along.'

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Like Darwin and Lyell, they have that 19-20th century superiority complex that 'no one really understood the data until they came along.'

Nope, there has always been a remnant that took God at his word.

 

[Danoh]

Nope, there has always been a remnant that took God at his word.

Yep :thumb:

Isaiah 30:8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever: