The Hill: "still no evidence of Trump collusion"

Catholic Crusader

Kyrie Eleison
Banned
Ignore the spin — still no evidence of Trump collusion
BY JONATHAN TURLEY, OPINION CONTRIBUTOR — 07/13/18 05:15 PM EDT - source link

“They caught the witches.” Those were the celebratory words of John Podesta, chairman of Hillary Clinton’s 2016 presidential campaign, in response to the indictment Friday of 12 Russian military intelligence officers for hacking efforts linked to the 2016 election. Only hours before, President Donald Trump repeated his favorite mantra, calling the investigation by special counsel Robert Mueller a “rigged witch hunt.”

Trump always has been wrong about the Mueller investigation, which many supported after he fired then-FBI Director James Comey. As this investigation once again proves, there be witches in those woods. The question, however, is the type of witches we were hunting.

The problem with hunting witches is that you can quickly forget what sent you on the hunt, or gradually view most everyone as a witch. In Salem, Mass., in 1763, Mary Easty was convicted by deranged girls yelling “O Goody Easty, O Goody Easty, you are the woman.” That was it. Witch

The problem in the Russian investigation is that we have plenty of crimes but not necessarily plenty of colluders.

The demonic Internet character Guccifer 2.0 was a carefully constructed false identity of a hacker, who turned out to be Russian intelligence officers. Before we all shout “O Goody Ruskies,” we should keep in mind the distinction between criminals and colluders. Trump is correct that none of these indictments have established any crime linked to collusion by himself or his key aides. That does not mean that the investigation is rigged or improper.

After 14 months of investigation (and for the second time in a formal indictment), the Justice Department has stated that it is not alleging any knowing collusion between Trump campaign officials or associates and the Russians. Back in February, Mueller handed down his major indictment of 13 Russians for actively interfering with the 2016 election by spreading false information. Both Mueller and Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein expressly noted that the evidence involved “unwitting” communications with Russians adopting false identities. This indictment shows that same pattern of clearly concealed identities in seeking to hack and distribute email information from the Democratic campaign and its associates.

When I noted at the time of the February indictment that it was strikingly silent on evidence of collusion, some insisted that the indictment did not cover the hacking operation and that Mueller was likely waiting to indict Trump officials colluding on the theft and distribution of the emails. We are still waiting. While the indictment speaks of both a reporter and a Trump campaign associate unwittingly communicating with the Russians, the indictment does not allege knowing collusion. That does not mean that no one colluded on some level, but after 14 months we have yet to see compelling evidence of collusion by Trump or his campaign.

There are some individuals who, according to media reports, may have sought hacked material from WikiLeaks. There also is an unnamed journalist who sought such information, and even an unnamed candidate for Congress. That does not mean, however, that it is a crime for reporters or academics or political activists to review such information if they did not play a role in illegal removal. Indeed, numerous journalists, including at least one reporter for The Hill, sought access to Guccifer 2.0’s information.

Moreover, the efforts of the Russian operations detailed in these indictments do not establish a particularly significant impact on the election. When the Russians began this operation in 2016, we were already irreconcilably divided as a nation between the two least popular candidates ever to run for the White House. Thirteen trolls in St. Petersburg, or 12 military hackers in Moscow, certainly could spit into that raging ocean, but it remains highly unlikely to have had a material impact on the election.

As for the information shared by the Russian units, it is was rather underwhelming even to the recipients. For example, Guccifer 2.0 sends a Trump associate what is described as “the turnout model for the democrats entire presidential campaign.” The Russians were eager to help, even saying in similarly stilted language, “please tell me if i can help u anyhow … it would be a great pleasure to me.” However, the recipient simply responds that the information is “pretty standard.”

Indeed, much of this effort may have been much too “standard” for some of us to admit. The continued shock and revulsion expressed by many leaders at the thought of such interference is a tad forced. The United States has intervened in foreign elections for decades, including leaking stolen documents. Not long ago, our hacking of our own allies, including German Chancellor Angela Merkel, was revealed. Many nations regularly try to influence elections and this is nothing new for the United States, either as the culprit or as the target of such efforts.

In other words, if there were a real hunt for election witches, we would find ourselves at the head of the line to the pillory.

Does that mean that the Mueller investigation is somehow invalid? Of course not. This remains an attack on our system, there is still work to be done, and we should all want the FBI to continue that work unimpeded.

Within minutes of its release, the latest indictment was unrecognizable after being put through the centrifuge of the Washington spin machine. The fact is that the indictment largely confirmed what we knew. It shows an effort by the Russians to undermine Clinton and influence the election; it also shows no evidence of knowing collusion and, indeed, very limited evidence of unknowing collusion.

So, ignore the exclamations of “O Goody Ruskies.” We can be outraged by the Russian operation without being hypocrites as to our own history. Likewise, we can support the Mueller investigation without ignoring the fact that no credible evidence has thus far arisen against Trump on collusion.

In other words, if you want to find witches, start by not being chumps
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Jonahdog

BANNED
Banned
so it becomes even more clear that the Russians attempted to affect the election in favor of Trump. I think Donny is pleased by that. He certainly does not seem concerned for the future.
but I am sure he will straighten it all out with Vlad. He'll ask Vlad about it, Vlad will deny and Trump will try to locate a golf course where it is unlikely protesters will appear, as they have at Turnbury in Scotland.
Trump will believe Kim, Putin, Erdogon etc. before he will believe his own countrymen.
He doesnt care. Unless it makes him $, he doesnt care. He doesnt care about people, he cares about gold and his brand. He doesnt care about abortion, he doesnt care about immigration. He cares only about his own bottom line.
He is a marketer nothing more. Other than being a coward.
 

Kit the Coyote

New member
I never really expected there to be 'collusion', whatever that is supposed to mean, found. I largely expected given the administration's bumbling around that they would stupidly stumble into obstruction of justice issues like Nixon did. But then the Don Jr. meeting came to light and made it clear that even if Trump was not purposely seeking to collude, Russian agents were seeking to draw them in. So I could no longer rule collusion out but I still don't expect there to be much when all is said and done.
 

rexlunae

New member
Muller's mandate has always been to investigate the intervention of Russians into the 2016 election and any American coconspirators. It doesn't presume any Americans are guilty of anything. This indictment refutes Trump's claims that it a witch hunt: they have found exactly what their mandate asks them to find. What's suspicious is the fact that Trump keeps acting guilty. If he didn't believe that the investigation would eventually reach him, he would let it run its course, confident that it would clear him. The fact that he keeps messing with it, keeps talking about it, and keeps pushing the Russian line that it's illegitimate makes it look an awful lot like he has something to hide.

One thing we learned from this indictment is that Trump publicly called on the Russians to attack Clinton, and they did so almost immediately after he did. That at least raises questions that demand answers.
 

Rusha

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I never really expected there to be 'collusion', whatever that is supposed to mean, found. I largely expected given the administration's bumbling around that they would stupidly stumble into obstruction of justice issues like Nixon did. But then the Don Jr. meeting came to light and made it clear that even if Trump was not purposely seeking to collude, Russian agents were seeking to draw them in. So I could no longer rule collusion out but I still don't expect there to be much when all is said and done.

I have always been convinced there was collusion for the simple fact that Trump asked for the emails to be hacked and ... they were. Trump behaves how I would expect a guilty person to behave. There are just too many coincidences ... and too many Russians.
 

Kit the Coyote

New member
I have always been convinced there was collusion for the simple fact that Trump asked for the emails to be hacked and ... they were. Trump behaves how I would expect a guilty person to behave. There are just too many coincidences ... and too many Russians.

Well honestly, I think that was just coincidence. I can't think even he is stupid enough to make his collusion request from the stage *laughs*.

I do think though that Russia has 'leverage' on Trump probably financial through real estate bank dealings and maybe even some real blackmail stuff.

But you are right, his behavior and railing against the 'witch hunt' doesn't make him look innocent.
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
Ex-Watergate Prosecutor Drops Bomb: Mueller Prepping Indictments For Trump Campaign Officials


Former Watergate Prosecutor Nick Akerman dropped a bomb on Saturday, saying the details in Robert Mueller’s Friday indictment of 12 Russians indicate that the special counsel is preparing similar indictments of Trump campaign officials.

Akerman said “there is no way” the Russians would have been able to carry out their aggressive attack on U.S. democracy without the help of people on the ground from the Trump campaign.

“[Robert Mueller and his team] know who the Americans are,” the ex-Watergate prosecutor said. “They know who is going to be indicted.”

What Akerman said should terrify Trump:

There is no way, no how that the Russians would have enough political sense and have enough feel for what the game on the ground is without having spotters and people in the Trump campaign directing this. And if you look at this indictment, it is filled with incredible details about the Russians. I mean, this is not gathered just based on forensic evidence. And they know. They know who the Americans are. They know who is going to be indicted. And they’re in the process now of putting that evidence together so they can convict these people beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

Catholic Crusader

Kyrie Eleison
Banned
........Within minutes of its release, the latest indictment was unrecognizable after being put through the centrifuge of the Washington spin machine. The fact is that the indictment largely confirmed what we knew. It shows an effort by the Russians to undermine Clinton and influence the election; it also shows no evidence of knowing collusion and, indeed, very limited evidence of unknowing collusion.

So, ignore the exclamations of “O Goody Ruskies.” We can be outraged by the Russian operation without being hypocrites as to our own history. Likewise, we can support the Mueller investigation without ignoring the fact that no credible evidence has thus far arisen against Trump on collusion.

In other words, if you want to find witches, start by not being chumps

Did you read that, chumps? No collusion.

Oh, and by the way, if there were, so what. Collusion is not a crime, or did you miss that part.
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
Kellyanne Conway's husband lambasts 'stable genius' Trump on Twitter and retweets link to DOJ indictment of 12 Russians


Presidential counselor Kellyanne Conway's husband isn't pulling any punches when it comes to his wife's boss.

George Conway - a longtime critic of Donald Trump - retweeted a Politico story with the headline 'European leaders do not think Trump is a stable genius' and wrote: 'What could possibly make them think that.'

Over the next few hours on Friday afternoon the attorney shared several tweets about the Department of Justice's indictment of 12 Russians for campaign hacking in the 2016 presidential election. . . .

George Conway shared a tweet in response to the president's comments in which journalist Josh Kraushaar wrote: 'Rod Rosenstein: "When we confront foreign interference in our elections, we must not address the issue as Republicans or Democrats, but instead as patriotic Americans."'
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
No one said that this indictment shows collusion. It suggests certain things. As for whether collusion would be a crime, it would depend on how it occurred.


How is it not treason? Can a Constitutional case be made against US citizens who aided and abetted the Russian military's cyberattacks to levy war against the U.S.?
 
Last edited:

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
How is it not treason? Can a Constitutional case be made under US citizens who aided and abetted the Russian military's cyberattacks to levy war against the U.S.?

sure, if you redefine "war" and "levy" to mean something other than their traditional definitions and can manage to get the scotus to agree


good luck with that
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
sure, if you redefine "war" and "levy" to mean something other than their traditional definitions and can manage to get the scotus to agree


good luck with that


You said not long ago that Russia wasn't at war with us.

There's overwhelming evidence they hacked the election, are probing our infrastructure, are influencing (by blackmail?) Trump to alienate our allies and weaken the Nato alliance.

It's asymmetrical warfare.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
You said not long ago that Russia wasn't at war with us.

There's overwhelming evidence they hacked the election, are probing our infrastructure, are influencing (by blackmail?) Trump to alienate our allies and weaken the Nato alliance.

It's asymmetrical warfare.



it still doesn't meet the classical definition of war


and it's not anything we didn't do ourselves to other countries, without ever declaring war



btw - define "hacked the election"
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
You said not long ago that Russia wasn't at war with us.

There's overwhelming evidence they hacked the election, are probing our infrastructure, are influencing (by blackmail?) Trump to alienate our allies and weaken the Nato alliance.

It's asymmetrical warfare.

"hacked"? So, what polling stations, what machines what hanging chads did they tamper with?
 
Top