The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[JustAChristian]

Re: Liberty in Christ

Re: Liberty in Christ

Originally posted by HopeofGlory
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. Heb. 7:19 (KJV)

Who also hath made us able ministers (doers) of the new testament (Matt 26:28); not of the letter, but of the "spirit" (see John 6:63): for the letter killeth, but the spirit (words of new testament) giveth life. 2 Cor. 3:6 (KJV)
But if the ministration of death (law), written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 2 Cor. 3:7 (KJV)
How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 2 Cor. 3:8 (KJV)
For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 2 Cor. 3:9 (KJV)
For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 2 Cor. 3:10 (KJV)
For if that which (law) is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth (spirt words of the new testament) is glorious.
2 Cor. 3:11 (KJV)
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 2 Cor. 3:12 (KJV)
And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 2 Cor. 3:13 (KJV)
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. 2 Cor. 3:14 (KJV)
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. 2 Cor. 3:15 (KJV)
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. 2 Cor. 3:16 (KJV)
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor. 3:17 (KJV)
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Cor. 3:18 (KJV)

Blessed is the doer of the word.

Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil "doer" (minister of the word), even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. 2 Tim. 2:9 (KJV)
Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory (John 6:54). 2 Tim. 2:10 (KJV)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all "spiritual" blessings in heavenly places in Christ: Eph. 1:3 (KJV)
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph. 1:4 (KJV)
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph. 1:5 (KJV)
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Eph. 1:6 (KJV)
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Eph. 1:7 (KJV)
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Eph. 1:8 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig

Craig,

Liberty in Christ will only come to those who will listen to and do the will of God the Father. This includes being baptized for the remission of sins. Paul desired that all listen to the message of the Gospel. He was fervent in prayer for the salvation of all the world. Read as I point out some important points that Paul had to say about prayer and obedience to the Lord.

When Paul wrote regarding the Jews who were not converted, he said, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they might be saved" (Rom 10:1). His desire and prayer was that they might be saved. This is always the desire of Christians for others. We are using this text this morning to express our feelings in regard to those who are lost.

First, it is our heart's desire and prayer, both Paul and myself, that you escape the horrors of Hell. Hell is real. The scriptures describe it as a "lake of fire," as "outer darkness," and as a place where there is not relief from suffering. Jesus said that in the day of judgment some would be sent away with these words: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). In the Bible, Hell is not a joke

Second, it is our heart's desire and prayer that you come to an understanding of the Scriptures. The Bible consist of sixty-six books of endless knowledge and inspired of God (2 Peter 1:21; 2 Tim 3:16). Knowledge of the Bible will come will a dedicated study program, and proper interpretation will follow such study (2 Tim 2:15). Rightly dividing the scriptures is vital to pleasing God and knowing Christ. We want you to know and enjoy the truths of the Bible.

Further, our prayer is that you will be received into Heaven. Heaven is the paradise prepared for the people of God Jesus said, "I go to prepare a place for you.. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am. there ye may be also" (Jn 14:2,3). Earth's most beautiful places and moments can hardly be compared to the glory of that realm. To know about heaven is to what to go there. Christians have God's promise that they will. We want you to share this hope.

However, all of the rewards of the Christian life are not reserved for the future. There are immeasurable benefits in the present life also. It is, therefore, our heart's desire and prayer that you enjoy all the blessings which are in Christ. Ephesians 1:3 tells us that all spiritual blessings are in Christ. Christians have the peace of God that passeth understanding, the privilege of prayer, and the assurance of God's constant care (Phil 4:7; 1 Jn. 5:14). These things are not lessened when shared. We would to God that you might partake of them too.

Finally, let me suggest that our heart's desire and prayer for you is that you overcome the pollution of the sinful world. Living in sin destroys man--soul, mind, and body. Do you realize that nothing that is wholesome and good must be sacrificed in becoming a Christian? In turning to God, one must abandon only those things which corrupt and destroy. Aside, even, from the eternal consequences, a man cheats himself by living in sin. A righteous life is a man's greatest personal asset.

In these brief remarks, I have outlined what every true Christian desires for every lost person. Friend, there are Christians praying for your salvation. Consider, too, that God wants you to be saved. The Bible teaches that He wants all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).

The question you must ultimately face, though, is what is you desire for yourself? We know that Heaven desires your salvation. We are assured that Christian men and women are praying to that end. But what is your decision? Each man must determine by his own actions what his eternal destiny will be (2 Cor 5:10).

Hear and believe the gospel of salvation.
Repent of sins and turn totally to the Lord in obedient faith
Be baptized for the remission of sins.
Rise to walk the new life in Jesus Christ.
Endure to the end and reap everlasting life.

JustAChristian

 

[HopeofGlory]

JustAChristian

I appreciate your concern for the lost and hell is the reward for all those that deny the gospel of Christ. There is also a reward for those that add to the word and distort its meaning in favor of their false doctrines thus dening the power of God unto salvation as you have done. My prayer is that you and others receive the words of Christ Jesus in the "new testament".

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)


Your post is void of this message of eternal life and you cling to your obedience to a "priestly ritual" contained in the law for eternal remission and deny this scripture.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
But there are some of you that believe not. John 6:64 (KJV)


I believe my flesh can profit nothing so I know the obedience of my flesh to water baptism is not required for salvation.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)

I am made righteous by His obedience not mine and my assurance
is in the blood of the new testament. My salvational is as sure as Christ Jesus sets at the right hand of the Father.

I am concerned for your salvation because of this scripture.

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Titus 1:13 (KJV)
Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. Titus 1:14 (KJV)
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. Titus 1:15 (KJV)
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:16 (KJV)

Turn from your wicked "works of righteousness" and believe in the shed blood of Christ for remission and receive eternal life.

"Not by works of righteousness" which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Titus 3:6 (KJV)
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig

 

[c.moore]

Quote by Freak

As expected we have heretics spreading their destructive doctrines on this forum, namely O2bewise. Mr. O2bewise said the following on September 6th: "Salvation can only come by baptism".

This pawn of Satan embraces and promotes a doctrine that will lead many to eternal hell. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. Baptism is not a requirement!

One attains eternal life (Salvation) thru simple belief in the person of Jesus. We see this in the words of Jesus when He said: "Everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life" (John 3:15).

Another time when addressing the people of His day, Jesus was asked: "What must we do to do the works God requires?", Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent" (John 6:28-29).

Note no mention of baptism.

Jesus made it clear O2bewise: I AM THE GATE; WHOEVER ENTERS THROUGH ME WILL BE SAVED (John 10:9).

Again no mentione of baptism, apparently to o2bewise Jesus must have misspoken here.

I would urge my fellow believers in the Lord Jesus to come against O2bewise's devilish doctrines. This man degrades our Lord when He speaks against Him by stating Baptism is required to be saved. This is in direct opposition to what our Lord said. Jesus said just come unto Him and you will be saved.

Some unbelievers once asked the disciples: "What must I do to be saved?"

They replied: Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31).

Note again no mention of baptism. Just belief in the Lord Jesus.

I think for me and my household we will listen to Jesus then o2bewise and his wicked ways.

Quote c.moore
Thank you Freak for starting this post, I see that this subject is an never ending doctrine , and most people and christians are trying to earn their way to heaven by their own works, and their own outward ritualistic way, and external works to earn the qualification to get saved and gain salvation. I pray that some just recieve the gift of Grace which is salvation freely given without work it`s easier and you can have confidence in your belief alone.
I found this interesting in the Amplified bible Phil 3:1-15 and I think this might help in the understanding that no way water baptismo is salvation.

God Bless

 

[Kevin]

C.Moore,

Holy Bible:
1 Peter 3:21 - Baptism now saves you.

C.Moore:
No it doesn't.


Holy Bible:
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved.

C.Moore:
No Lord, you have it all wrong... you only need faith!


You can go to your faith only verses all you want to try and refute what is plainly written, but it won't do any good. The fact is, that is what the Bible says, and nothing you can say will change this very simple fact.

 

[Mark]

Kevin:

It is incresingly amazing to me that so many believers do not believe in baptism. This simple beautiful act they cannot even fathom...I often wonder, is it the public display for Christ that they abhor? Are they afraid of water? Are they afraid they might faint going down in the water? Maybe they are thinking "well, someone might think Im weird", yada yada.
It has been my experience that those that profess to follow Christ and reject baptism are not ony ignorant in the baptism area, but other areas as well. I have watched these boards closely and have seen and evaluated each argument pro and con. My question is, would the walls of Jericho have fallen if they had not blown their trumpets? Would the blind man have healed if he had not washed his eyes with mud? So many times, I hear the "thief on the cross" mantra:

But..but...the thief on the cross wasnt baptised!!!!

And I can picture quite clearly God saying to them from the Great White Throne:

"WELL, WHO NAILED *YOU" TO A CROSS???!!"

 

[c.moore]

Hello Mark
Many believe in baptism and I believe every christian should get water baptized, because to show their tetimony that they are a follower of Christ and it is a act of obedeince, but most christians know the truth that baptism is not a work of salvation. Our belief is what saves us and we get baptize because we are already saved throught the free grace given to us as soon as we are washed from Christ Jesus precious Blood, and we confess our sins. I know God has no respect of person and we all have the same right even the theif on the cross you mention, and he was not even baptized but made it into the kingdom of God, without any works and no water.

Good point you said Mark:But..but...the thief on the cross wasnt baptised!!!!

Quote c.moore
I wish some christians would let God do the saving instead of them trying to do all they can to get save including some kind of water baptism outward works of salvation done by their merit, and thier own powers, and thier own works, and thier own understandings.

Peace

 

[JustAChristian]

Hello Craig......

Hello Craig......

Originally posted by HopeofGlory
JustAChristian

I appreciate your concern for the lost and hell is the reward for all those that deny the gospel of Christ. There is also a reward for those that add to the word and distort its meaning in favor of their false doctrines thus dening the power of God unto salvation as you have done. My prayer is that you and others receive the words of Christ Jesus in the "new testament".

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)


Your post is void of this message of eternal life and you cling to your obedience to a "priestly ritual" contained in the law for eternal remission and deny this scripture.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
But there are some of you that believe not. John 6:64 (KJV)


I believe my flesh can profit nothing so I know the obedience of my flesh to water baptism is not required for salvation.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)

I am made righteous by His obedience not mine and my assurance
is in the blood of the new testament. My salvational is as sure as Christ Jesus sets at the right hand of the Father.

I am concerned for your salvation because of this scripture.

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Titus 1:13 (KJV)
Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. Titus 1:14 (KJV)
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. Titus 1:15 (KJV)
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:16 (KJV)

Turn from your wicked "works of righteousness" and believe in the shed blood of Christ for remission and receive eternal life.

"Not by works of righteousness" which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Titus 3:6 (KJV)
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig

We meet again...

On you point that the flesh prfits nothing you said...

I believe my flesh can profit nothing so I know the obedience of my flesh to water baptism is not required for salvation.

Craig, you don't have the concept of what you are talking about. The flesh here is not talking about the skin and muscle of a person's body but that which if of a temporal nature. Temporal things do not profit unto eternal life. Being baptized for the remission of sins is not a temporal thing. It has total spiritual application and thus profits completely. Jesus made baptizm a condition of salvation (Mark 16:16) The Calvinist try to dispute it, but when all is said and done "...he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" is still there.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)

This is a very good verse. Sin came into the world because of man's failure to obey. Salvation comes as a result of one's (Jesus Christ) obedience to God. Another scripture that I like is "For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps" 1Peter 2:21 We have a responsibility to be faithful in following Jesus Christ. This begins with becoming disciples through the teaching and baptism of the apostolic commission (Matthew 28:18-20). There is nothing that I can do for myself spiritually unto a benefit unless it is called for from the word fo God. I can't follow a doctrine, commandment or example that is not directed from the scriptures (2 Tim 3:15), and profit one whit!.

Turn from your wicked "works of righteousness" and believe in the shed blood of Christ for remission and receive eternal life.

I have the fullest confidence in the shed blood of Jesus Christ for clensing. This cleansing takes place in baptism (Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:15). Where does your so-called cleansing take place?

"works of righteousness"

Craig, what is your definition of "works of righteousness"?

"Not by works of righteousness" which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)

I believe we can not earn salvation by meritorious works, but I do believe that Christ has commanded things unto salvation, such as faith, repentance, confession, baptism and righteous living. If you call these meritorious works then I believe you have a poor concept of works.

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7 (KJV)

Grace is the free gift of God given without merit. Without God's extension of Grace no one could be saved from sins. It was his plan from the foundation of the earth that man's sins would be forgiven if he exercised obedient faith (Hebrews 11:1ff). All that are obedient in faithfulness is rewarded with salvation in the life to come. Being baptized for the remission of sins is faithfulness to the commandment (Acts 2:38).

JustAChristian

.............................................................

"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Galatians 3:27 Craig, what is your definition of "works of righteousness"?

 

[Kevin]

The simplicity of reading your Bible...

The simplicity of reading your Bible...

Holy Bible:
1Peter 3:21 - Baptism now saves you.

C.Moore:
"baptism is not a work of salvation"


Holy Bible:
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved.

C.Moore:
"baptism is not a work of salvation"


Anybody who does not have planks in their eye can clearly see that baptism plays a role in our salvation. I even increased the font size to stress that it effects our salvation, but sadly, some people will not be able to comprehend what is so clearly written in front of them.

 

[Kevin]

Mark,

Thanks for your support. Indeed, many people try to hide behind of the thief on the cross. If people would just read their Bible's they would understand why the thief was saved.

Jesus had the power to forgive sins on earth (Matt. 9:6). The theif on the cross was saved because Jesus had the power to forgive sins on earth. Besides those people who were directly fogiven by Him, there was no forgivness of sin. Not to mention the fact that it would be impossible for the thief to be baptized into Jesus's death since Jesus hadn't died yet.

Now that Jesus is no longer here on earth, He's not walking around telling people that their sins are forgiven. Therefore, after He died, He instituted the means by which man can have their sins washed away - baptism. The result is that salvation is available to all people, not just the people who had the pleasure of meeting Jesus in person and having their sins forgiven. Jesus made it very clear in Mark 16:16 that we are to believe and be baptized to be saved, because baptism is how we are freed from sin. Peter also made it clear that baptism saves us in 1 Peter 3:21. He said that baptism now saves us.

Yet, some people just don't see what is written before them.

Again, thanks for the support. However, I have to disagree with you that baptism is a "public display for Christ". Quite simply baptism is for the forgiveness of sins. If I misunderstood you and you do believe that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, I apologize.

 

[JustAChristian]

Kevin brings out some very good points to which I wish to add:

If I can be saved without baptism, I can be:

a. ...saved without obeying Christ (Mark 16:16).
b. ...saved without entering the Kingdom (John 3:5).
c. ...saved without the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).
d. ...saved without the blotting out of sins (Acts 3:19).
e. ...saved without the washing away of sins (Acts 3:19)
f. ...saved without entering Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:3).
g. ...saved without the death & blood of Christ (Rom. 6:3)
h. ...saved without the resurrection of Christ (Rom. 6:4).
i. ...saved without walking in newness of life (Rom. 6:4).
j. ...saved without being redeemed (Eph. 1:7).
k. ...saved without being in Christ (Gal 3:26-27).
l. ...saved without being a child of God (Eph. 1:3).
m. ...saved without putting on Christ (Gal. 3:27).

The probability of salvation with all these factors before me shutters me to think why baptism is so widely denyed by so many. As the prophet said, and Paul concluded, so do I:

"For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them." (Acts 28:27).


JustAChristian

 

[c.moore]

Quote from Kevin:
"baptism is not a work of salvation"


I think baptism is work because to get into the water takes works to walk to the pool or where ever you will get baptized in, and the person dipping you has to work to put a person in the water, and to pull you up is some kind of outward work, and if you ever baptize 100 people and more in a baptism service you will see it takes alot of outward works. The water you go in is not a supernatural type of water it is not a type of water that cleans your outside sins, it is a symbol for the cleanhing of what has happen in the past in your inside of you when you believed in Jesus and trust Jesus according to Mark 16:16.
Even the confession of your sins is some kind of work because you have to use your mouth to confess according to Rom 10:9 but the I can say the most really saves in the confession , but for God the Heart is the thing that move God because it`s from the inside and that real you that is trusting Jesus is from your heart not your outward physical mouth.
The same is in Mark 16:16 the believing is from the heart and that`s what move God with your faith, and the baptism physical ceremony with the natural outward works is like the mouth work in Rom 10:9, but I and those who love God want to please God in the Spirit and in the Heart, with faith .
I see that alot of carnal christians try please God in the natural, and God what us to please Him really in the Spirit world,or the invisible world where Love, Faith,belief,angels,powers,etc.
The commandment part of the Word of God is for this physical world, but the Kingsdom of God world is to the natural man a upside down world and they don`t understand the spiritual things that count for God, and that also saves us.
This is why I see how some christians get caught up in this baptism doctrine that suppose tio save like Kevin and more But, I know Kevin is A Child of God and he is my brother in the LOrd , but everone has different measure of faith, and some eat meat and some still drinking milk and I can respect that even thought they don`t realize where they are at.
I hope this help somebody to understand more deeper the reason baptism doen`t save, but again I agree it is a commandment that we get baptize,just I believe we must confess with our mouth in repentance, But the KEY DOR TO EVERLASTING LIFE IS WITH THE HEART.
Here is a what if question which many people don`t like, but just check it out.
What if a person can`t speak and they don`t know sign language don they have a chance to everlasting life?

What if a person is horrified of going under the water are they going to hell because they believed in their heart But did not do the outward fleshly water baptismo?

I hope this helps to see into the Spiritual world , with Help of the HOly Spirit, so you can gain Spiritual understanding, and see also that the inside work of belief is salvation only.

God Bless

 

[Kevin]

C.Moore,

Quote from Kevin:
"baptism is not a work of salvation"

I put that in my post, yes. But, I quoted that from YOU. Why are you trying to explain to me why you think it's a work? You said that, not me. I never denied that baptism was a work.

And before you quote scripture saying that works doesn't save us, understand that it doesn't, alone. It takes both faith and works of obedience to please God. Both. Not just faith, not just works, both.

The water you go in is not a supernatural type of water it is not a type of water that cleans your outside sins,

When did I say that water has "supernatural powers". I've indicated in the past that it is not the water that saves. Water just happens to be the chosen means by God by which we are baptized. I haven't seen anybody post saying that the water saves. Baptism, through the resurrection of Jesus saves us, which is exactly what 1 Peter 3:21 tells us.

it is a symbol for the cleanhing of what has happen in the past

So says denominational teachings, but that's not what the Bible teaches. Romans 6:7 clearly states that he who has died has been freed from sin. The only way to die with Christ is through baptism (Romans 6:4). Verse 7 clearly makes the qualification on what it takes to be freed from sin: dying with Him through baptism.

Now, knowing that we have to die with Him through baptism to be freed from sin, how do you reconcile that are sins are forgiven before dying with Him through baptism? That notion clearly goes against that verse.

it is a symbol for the cleanhing of what has happen in the past in your inside of you when you believed in Jesus and trust Jesus according to Mark 16:16.

Again, your tyring to put baptism AFTER salvation, when Christ put BOTH belief AND baptism BEFORE salvation. What you say and what the Bible says are two different things.

Even the confession of your sins is some kind of work because you have to use your mouth to confess according to Rom 10:9 but the I can say the most really saves in the confession , but for God the Heart is the thing that move God because it`s from the inside and that real you that is trusting Jesus is from your heart not your outward physical mouth.

What is in your heart is indeed important, but for you to suggest that confessing Him with the outward mouth doesn't play a role in salvation is not what the Bible teaches. If one doesn't confess Christ, then they deny Him. Those who deny Christ will be sent to Hell. Observe:

Matthew 10:32-33
32) Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.
33) But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

So you see that confessing Him with the mouth before men will cause Christ to confess that man to His Father. That is a good thing. However, if somebody doesn't confess Christ with his mouth before men (a work), that will cause Christ to deny that man before His Father in heaven. That is a bad thing. Can we say HELLBOUND?

The commandment part of the Word of God is for this physical world

So says you. Where's the Biblical proof for this wild assertion? The Bible tells me that he who does His commandments will have rights to the tree of Life (Revelation 22:14). Baptism also has nothing to do with this physical world. It's purpose is indeed spiritual... it's for the forgivness of sins and being reborn in life (spiritually), walking in the newness of life.

What if a person can`t speak and they don`t know sign language don they have a chance to everlasting life?

What if a person is horrified of going under the water are they going to hell because they believed in their heart But did not do the outward fleshly water baptismo?

It just doesn't fail, does it? What if, what if, what if. God is quite clear in His commandments to us. He commanded us to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. The Bible is quite clear on the necessity of keeping His commandments. When the day of Judgement comes, I pity the people who have to answer God with "What if" senarios. The people who are on this planet, and have the ability to obey His word, are expected to obey it.

You can come up with infinite "what if" senarios, but frankly, it gets old, and doesn't change the fact that baptism is commanded by God and we are expected to obey it. If it is humanly impossible for a small percentage, then God will judge those RARE cases. But that's NO excuse for the VAST MAJORITY of people who CAN obey His commandments. No excuse whatsoever.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by JustAChristian
Kevin brings out some very good points to which I wish to add:

If I can be saved without baptism, I can be:

a. ...saved without obeying Christ (Mark 16:16).
b. ...saved without entering the Kingdom (John 3:5).
c. ...saved without the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).
d. ...saved without the blotting out of sins (Acts 3:19).
e. ...saved without the washing away of sins (Acts 3:19)
f. ...saved without entering Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:3).
g. ...saved without the death & blood of Christ (Rom. 6:3)
h. ...saved without the resurrection of Christ (Rom. 6:4).
i. ...saved without walking in newness of life (Rom. 6:4).
j. ...saved without being redeemed (Eph. 1:7).
k. ...saved without being in Christ (Gal 3:26-27).
l. ...saved without being a child of God (Eph. 1:3).
m. ...saved without putting on Christ (Gal. 3:27).

The probability of salvation with all these factors before me shutters me to think why baptism is so widely denyed by so many. As the prophet said, and Paul concluded, so do I:

"For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them." (Acts 28:27).


Quote c.moore
Check this out justAchristian maybe this version is better.
If I can be saved without baptism, JESUS will walk me through His ways and will, and JESUS will give the grace to trust and follow His ways and then by believing and letting Christ in you , and then I won`t want to be:

a. ...saved without obeying Christ (Mark 16:16).
b. ...saved without entering the Kingdom (John 3:5).
c. ...saved without the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).
d. ...saved without the blotting out of sins (Acts 3:19).
e. ...saved without the washing away of sins (Acts 3:19)
f. ...saved without entering Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:3).
g. ...saved without the death & blood of Christ (Rom. 6:3)
h. ...saved without the resurrection of Christ (Rom. 6:4).
i. ...saved without walking in newness of life (Rom. 6:4).
j. ...saved without being redeemed (Eph. 1:7).
k. ...saved without being in Christ (Gal 3:26-27).
l. ...saved without being a child of God (Eph. 1:3).
m. ...saved without putting on Christ (Gal. 3:27).





"For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them." (Acts 28:27).

JustAchristian read , this is where you find the key to heaven gates.

God bless:up:

 

[Mark]

Kevin:
"However, I have to disagree with you that baptism is a "public display for Christ". Quite simply baptism is for the forgiveness of sins."

Actually, I was baptized in private! I dont even remember at the time why...maybe it was a Thursday and no one was at church..but th epoint was this: I wanted to do it asap. So, I did it. No philosophical meanderings needed. I came across Mark 16:16, and it was either yes, submit to Christ, or don't, and be damned. As far as public things and what not, well...I dont think its necessary to publicly be baptized at all. On a side note, do you think it is scripturally valid for women to baptize? I dont know how many times I have flipped through the channels and thought to myself "what would Timothy or Paul think of this women preaching before a large auditorium filled with men and woman?". I would state that women should not baptize but other women. Not men. Agree/Disagree?

 

[c.moore]

praise God

 

[c.moore]

C.Moore,

Quote:Quote from Kevin:
"baptism is not a work of salvation"

 

[c.moore]

C.Moore,

Quote:Quote from Kevin:
"baptism is not a work of salvation"



I put that in my post, yes. But, I quoted that from YOU. Why are you trying to explain to me why you think it's a work? You said that, not me. I never denied that baptism was a work.
Quote c.moore
Then what does this mean: Ro:6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
How about this scripture Ro:11:6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
You said baptism is work and you agree about this truth right?
What happens to the grace that gives us eternal life?
No mention of water baptism to gain salvation and eternal life.
What about the baptism spiritual grace Kevin?

Quote kevin
And before you quote scriptures saying that works doesn't save us, understand that it doesn't, alone. It takes both faith and works of obedience to please God. Both. Not just faith, not just works, both.
Quote c.moore
The bible says : Heb:11:6: But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
So the inward faith is what pleases God .
I am still looking for a scripture that works pleases God like faith. Faith can move mountains and more.






Quote:The water you go in is not a supernatural type of water it is not a type of water that cleans your outside sins,



When did I say that water has "supernatural powers". I've indicated in the past that it is not the water that saves. Water just happens to be the chosen means by God by which we are baptized. I haven't seen anybody post saying that the water saves. Baptism, through the resurrection of Jesus saves us, which is exactly what 1 Peter 3:21 tells us.

Quote c.moore

I said this so you can see water is a symbol and does nothing , or change any thing from you ,except when you get spiritual baptize something happens specially when you get filled with the Holy Spirit. ." The experience of those who were in the ark at the time of the Flood was a figure or type of the facts of spiritual death, burial, and resurrection, Christian "baptism" being an antitupon, "a corresponding type," a "like figure," 1 Pet. 3:21.
A clue to the meaning of baptism is given by three OT types: the flood (I Pet. 3:19-20), the Red Sea (I Cor. 10:1-2), and circumcision (Col. 2:11-12). These all refer in different ways to the divine covenant, to its provisional fulfillment in a divine act of judgment and grace, and to the coming and definitive fulfillment in the baptism of the cross. The conjunction of water with death and redemption is particularly apt in the case of the first two; the covenantal aspect is more particularly emphasized in the third.
When we come to the action itself, there are many different but interrelated associations. The most obvious is that of washing (Titus 3:5), the cleansing water being linked with the blood of Christ on the one side and the purifying action of the Spirit on the other (see I John 5:6, 8), so that we are brought at once to the divine work of reconciliation. A second is that of initiation, adoption, or, more especially, regeneration (John 3:5), the emphasis again being placed on the operation of the Spirit in virtue of the work of Christ.
These various themes find common focus in the primary thought of baptism (in the destructive, yet also life-giving, power of water) as a drowning and an emergence to new life, i.e., a death and resurrection (Rom. 6:3-4). But here again the true witness of the action is to the work of God in the substitutionary death and resurrection of Christ. This identification with sinners in judgment and renewal is what Jesus accepts when he comes to the baptism of John and fulfills when he takes his place between two thieves on the cross (Luke 12:50). Here we have the real baptism of the NT, which makes possible the baptism of our identification with christ and underlies and is attested by the outward sign. Like preaching and the Lord's Supper, "baptism" is an evangelical word telling us that Christ has died and risen again in our place, so that we are dead and alive again in him, with him, and through him (Rom. 6:4, 11).
Like all preaching, however, baptism carries with it the call to that which we should do in response or correspondence to what Christ has done for us. We, too must make our movement of death and resurrection, not to add to what Christ has done, nor to complete it, nor to compete with it, but in grateful acceptance and application. We do this in three related ways constantly kept before us by our baptism: the initial response of repentance and faith (Gal. 2:20); the lifelong process of mortification and renewal (Eph. 4:22-23); and the final dissolution and resurrection of the body (I Cor. 15). This rich signification of baptism, which is irrespective of the time or manner of baptism, is the primary theme that ought to occupy us in baptismal discussion and preaching. But it must be emphasized continually that this personal acceptance or entry is not independent of the once for all and substitutionary work of Christ, which is the true baptism.
It is forgetfulness of this point which leads to misunderstanding of the so-called grace of baptism. This may be by its virtual denial. Baptism has no grace apart from its psychological effects. It is primarily a sign of something that we do, and its value may be assessed only in explicable religious terms. The fact that spiritual gifts and even faith itself are true gifts of the Holy Spirit, with an element of the mysterious and incalculable, is thus denied.
On the other hand, it may be by distortion or exaggeration. Baptism means the almost automatic infusion of a mysterious substance which accomplishes a miraculous but not very obvious transformation. It is thus to be regarded with awe, and fulfilled as an action of absolute necessity to salvation except in very special cases. The true mystery of the Holy Spirit yields before ecclesiastical magic and theological sophistry.
But when baptismal grace is brought into proper relationship to the work of God, we are helped on the way to a fruitful understanding.
First, and above all, we remember that behind the external action there lies the true baptism, which is that of the shed blood of Christ. Baptismal grace is the grace of this true reality of baptism, i.e., of the substitutionary work of Christ, or of Christ himself. Only in this sense can we legitimately speak of grace, but in this sense we can and must.
Second, we remember that behind the external action there lies the inward operation of the Spirit moving the recipient to faith in Christ's work and accomplishing regeneration to the life of faith. Baptismal grace is the grace of this internal work of the Spirit, which cannot be presumed (for the Spirit is sovereign) but which we dare to believe where there is a true calling on the name of the Lord.

Quote:
it is a symbol for the cleanhing of what has happen in the past



So says denominational teachings, but that's not what the Bible teaches. Romans 6:7 clearly states that he who has died has been freed from sin. The only way to die with Christ is through baptism (Romans 6:4). Verse 7 clearly makes the qualification on what it takes to be freed from sin: dying with Him through baptism.

Now, knowing that we have to die with Him through baptism to be freed from sin, how do you reconcile that are sins are forgiven before dying with Him through baptism? That notion clearly goes against that verse.

Quote c.moore
These various themes find common focus in the primary thought of baptism (in the destructive, yet also life-giving, power of water) as a drowning and an emergence to new life, i.e., a death and resurrection (Rom. 6:3-4). But here again the true witness of the action is to the work of God in the substitutionary death and resurrection of Christ. This identification with sinners in judgment and renewal is what Jesus accepts when he comes to the baptism of John and fulfills when he takes his place between two thieves on the cross (Luke 12:50). Here we have the real baptism of the NT, which makes possible the baptism of our identification with christ and underlies and is attested by the outward sign. Like preaching and the Lord's Supper, "baptism" is an evangelical word telling us that Christ has died and risen again in our place, so that we are dead and alive again in him, with him, and through him (Rom. 6:4, 11).


Quote:it is a symbol for the cleanhing of what has happen in the past in your inside of you when you believed in Jesus and trust Jesus according to Mark 16:16.


quote kevin:
Again, your tyring to put baptism AFTER salvation, when Christ put BOTH belief AND baptism BEFORE salvation. What you say and what the Bible says are two different things.

Quote c.moore
I am putting the heart before the mouth confession like in Romans 10:9, and that what saves what happens in your heart , and the same with Mark 16:16 the belief is what saves and the baptism just show the burial of sins and you come out the water alive in Christ as a figuration of what happen on your insides.
What is more important for salvation the belief in your heart or the external baptism?


Quote:Even the confession of your sins is some kind of work because you have to use your mouth to confess according to Rom 10:9 but the I can say the most really saves in the confession , but for God the Heart is the thing that move God because it`s from the inside and that real you that is trusting Jesus is from your heart not your outward physical mouth.



What is in your heart is indeed important, but for you to suggest that confessing Him with the outward mouth doesn't play a role in salvation is not what the Bible teaches. If one doesn't confess Christ, then they deny Him. Those who deny Christ will be sent to Hell. Observe:

Quote c.moore
The confession part is like when we get married we first fall in love and have a relationship with your partner, and then you get the legal papers you need and the rings, and last but least at the wedding before the priest you say :I DO take this man or wife to be until death do you part, and this doesn`t make the marriage ,the legal papers, and the relationship and trust and love is the key to being married.



Quote:
The commandment part of the Word of God is for this physical world


Quote kevin
So says you. Where's the Biblical proof for this wild assertion? The Bible tells me that he who does His commandments will have rights to the tree of Life (Revelation 22:14). Baptism also has nothing to do with this physical world. It's purpose is indeed spiritual... it's for the forgivness of sins and being reborn in life (spiritually), walking in the newness of life.

Quote by c,moore
Where the gospel is first preached or Christian profession has lapsed, baptism is always administered on confession of penitence and faith. In this sense believers' baptism, i.e., the baptism of those who make a profession of faith, has been an accepted and persistent phenomenon in the church. Yet there are powerful groups among Christians who think that we should go further than this. Believers' baptism as they see it is not merely legitimate; it is the only true baptism according to the NT, especially, though not necessarily, in the form of immersion.
This is seen first from the precept which underlies its institution. When Jesus commanded the apostles to baptize, he told them first to make disciples and said nothing whatever about infants (Matt. 28:19). In other words, preaching must always precede baptism, for it is by the word and not the sacrament that disciples are first made. Baptism can be given only when the recipient has responded to the word in penitence and faith, and it is to be followed at once by a course of more detailed instruction.
That the apostles understood it in this way is evident from the precedents which have come down to us in Acts. On the day of Pentecost, for example, Peter told the conscience-stricken people to repent and be baptized; he did not mention any special conditions for infants incapable of repentance (Acts 2:38). Again, when the Ethiopian eunuch desired baptism, he was told that there could be no hindrance so long as he believed, and it was on confession of faith that Philip baptized him (Acts 8:36ff.). Even when whole households were baptized, we are normally told that they first heard the gospel preached and either believed or received an endowment of the Spirit (cf. Acts 10:45; 16:32-33). In any case, no mention is made of any other type of baptism.
The meaning of baptism as developed by Paul in Rom. 6 supports this contention. It is in repentance and faith that we are identified with Jesus Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection. To infants who cannot hear the word and make the appropriate response, it thus seems to be meaningless and even misleading to speak of baptism into the death and resurrection of Christ. The confessing believer alone knows what this means and can work it out in his life. In baptism, confessing his penitence and faith, he has really turned his back on the old life and begun to live the new life in Christ. He alone can look back to a meaningful conversion or regeneration and thus receive the confirmation and accept the challenge that comes with baptism. To introduce any other form of baptism is to open the way to perversion or misconception.

Praise God

 

[Kevin]

C.Moore,

Then what does this mean: Ro:6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It means exactly what it says. And just HOW do you think we GET eternal life through Jesus Christ? 1 Peter 3:21 - Baptism now saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Baptism!

How about this scripture Ro:11:6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

This is speaking about Israel, and that their rejection is not total. It explains how they are not saved by the works of the Law - the Mosaic Law that they were under. You keep trying to show scripture that is speaking about not being under the Mosaic Law anymore and trying to use it to show that we don't have to keep Christ's commandments for salvation. Do you really think that Christ would give us His commandments only for His apostles to go around saying that obeying Christ's commandments isn't important?

And for you to assert that works of obedience (to Christ - NOT the Mosaic Law), has nothing to do with our salvation, then Jesus must be confused. He personally gave an illustration in Matt. 25:41-46 that show Him damning people to hell because of their lack of good works towards man.

You said baptism is work and you agree about this truth right?

I agree that baptism is a work, if that's what you mean.

What happens to the grace that gives us eternal life?

What do you mean? Grace is there for anyone who meets the conditions that God instituted - Faith and obedience to His Son's commandments.

It is those who do His commandments that will have rights to the tree of life (Rev. 22:14). Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to those who obey Him (Heb. 5:9). But you go ahead and keep pretending like these verses don't exist or don't actually mean what they say they do. I find it sad that you only want to give credence to the verses which speak about faith, and not to the ones that mention obedience as well.

No mention of water baptism to gain salvation and eternal life.

Yes there is! It's been shown to you time and time again. I even increased the font size to show you. I'll do it again:

Holy Bible:
1Peter 3:21 - Baptism NOW SAVES YOU.

Holy Bible:
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized WILL BE SAVED.

1 Peter 3:21 tells us that baptism SAVES US. Yet you say "No mention of water baptism to gain salvation and eternal life". OPEN YOU EYES!

The bible says : Heb:11:6: But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
So the inward faith is what pleases God .

Yes it does. But it's a faith that is alive with works of obedience, not a faith that is dead unto itself! James 2:26 makes it CLEAR that "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.". In fact, this is proven by the fact that the people in Matt. 25:41-46 were cast in to Hell because their faith lacked works. Dare you address this, or will you continue to turn a blind eye and hide behind your faith scriptures?

I am still looking for a scripture that works pleases God like faith.

As pointed out earlier: Matt. 25:41-46. They were cast into hell because of the lack of works towards man. How can you say that works doesn't please God when He is willing to cast people into Hell because they didn't do them??

As pointed out before, it's clear in Matt. 25:41-46 that works is important to God, or otherwise Jesus wouldn't have cast them into hell because of their lack of works. Works pleases God. If you'd open your eyes and give credence to the verses other than the ones that only speak about faith, you'd see that. As long as you give the blind eye, you won't. Simple.

A clue to the meaning of baptism is given by three OT types: the flood (I Pet. 3:19-20), the Red Sea (I Cor. 10:1-2), and circumcision (Col. 2:11-12). These all refer in different ways to the divine covenant, to its provisional fulfillment in a divine act of judgment and grace, and to the coming and definitive fulfillment in the baptism of the cross. The conjunction of water with death and redemption is particularly apt in the case of the first two; the covenantal aspect is more particularly emphasized in the third.

There's no need to go to the O.T. for the meaning of Christian baptism in the name of the Lord. Paul defined it quite clearly in Romans 6. He showed quiite clearly that baptism is how we die with Christ and free ourselves from sin, burying our sinful man through baptism. Both Paul and Peter baptized people in the name of the Lord, which uses water (Acts 10:47). Peter made it clear that baptism now saves us (1 Peter 3:21).

Quote:
it is a symbol for the cleanhing of what has happen in the past



So says denominational teachings, but that's not what the Bible teaches. Romans 6:7 clearly states that he who has died has been freed from sin. The only way to die with Christ is through baptism (Romans 6:4). Verse 7 clearly makes the qualification on what it takes to be freed from sin: dying with Him through baptism.

Now, knowing that we have to die with Him through baptism to be freed from sin, how do you reconcile that are sins are forgiven before dying with Him through baptism? That notion clearly goes against that verse.

Quote c.moore
These various themes find common focus in the primary thought of baptism (in the destructive, yet also life-giving, power of water) as a drowning and an emergence to new life, i.e., a death and resurrection (Rom. 6:3-4). But here again the true witness of the action is to the work of God in the substitutionary death and resurrection of Christ. This identification with sinners in judgment and renewal is what Jesus accepts when he comes to the baptism of John and fulfills when he takes his place between two thieves on the cross (Luke 12:50). Here we have the real baptism of the NT, which makes possible the baptism of our identification with christ and underlies and is attested by the outward sign. Like preaching and the Lord's Supper, "baptism" is an evangelical word telling us that Christ has died and risen again in our place, so that we are dead and alive again in him, with him, and through him (Rom. 6:4, 11).

This doesn't address my point, that it is he who has been baptized are the ones who have been freed from sin... not before baptism.

Quote c.moore
the same with Mark 16:16 the belief is what saves and the baptism just show the burial of sins

You keep trying to put baptism after salvtion when the Bible puts it BEFORE salvation. Baptism doesn't show that your sins were forgiven by belief. Baptism is what allows the forgiveness of sins. You keep trying to put the cart before the horse.

What is more important for salvation the belief in your heart or the external baptism?

Belief and baptism is important to me, because Jesus said that it takes belief AND baptism to be saved. Both of those conditions come BEFORE salvation, and therefore those conditions must be met BEFORE salvation takes place.

The confession part is like when we get married we first fall in love and have a relationship with your partner, and then you get the legal papers you need and the rings, and last but least at the wedding before the priest you say :I DO take this man or wife to be until death do you part, and this doesn`t make the marriage ,the legal papers, and the relationship and trust and love is the key to being married.

I have provide proof texts to show that we must confess Jesus before men in order for Jesus to confess us before the Father. If we do not confess him before men, He won't confess us before the Father. The work of confessing Jesus with your mouth IS just as important as whats in you heart. Your above comments does not address this. Where is the proof texts that support your analogy?

Quote:
The commandment part of the Word of God is for this physical world


Quote kevin
So says you. Where's the Biblical proof for this wild assertion? The Bible tells me that he who does His commandments will have rights to the tree of Life (Revelation 22:14). Baptism also has nothing to do with this physical world. It's purpose is indeed spiritual... it's for the forgivness of sins and being reborn in life (spiritually), walking in the newness of life.

Quote by c,moore
Where the gospel is first preached or Christian profession has lapsed, baptism is always administered on confession of penitence and faith. In this sense believers' baptism, i.e., the baptism of those who make a profession of faith, has been an accepted and persistent phenomenon in the church. Yet there are powerful groups among Christians who think that we should go further than this. Believers' baptism as they see it is not merely legitimate; it is the only true baptism according to the NT, especially, though not necessarily, in the form of immersion.
This is seen first from the precept which underlies its institution. When Jesus commanded the apostles to baptize, he told them first to make disciples and said nothing whatever about infants (Matt. 28:19). In other words, preaching must always precede baptism, for it is by the word and not the sacrament that disciples are first made. Baptism can be given only when the recipient has responded to the word in penitence and faith, and it is to be followed at once by a course of more detailed instruction.
That the apostles understood it in this way is evident from the precedents which have come down to us in Acts. On the day of Pentecost, for example, Peter told the conscience-stricken people to repent and be baptized; he did not mention any special conditions for infants incapable of repentance (Acts 2:38). Again, when the Ethiopian eunuch desired baptism, he was told that there could be no hindrance so long as he believed, and it was on confession of faith that Philip baptized him (Acts 8:36ff.). Even when whole households were baptized, we are normally told that they first heard the gospel preached and either believed or received an endowment of the Spirit (cf. Acts 10:45; 16:32-33). In any case, no mention is made of any other type of baptism.
The meaning of baptism as developed by Paul in Rom. 6 supports this contention. It is in repentance and faith that we are identified with Jesus Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection. To infants who cannot hear the word and make the appropriate response, it thus seems to be meaningless and even misleading to speak of baptism into the death and resurrection of Christ. The confessing believer alone knows what this means and can work it out in his life. In baptism, confessing his penitence and faith, he has really turned his back on the old life and begun to live the new life in Christ. He alone can look back to a meaningful conversion or regeneration and thus receive the confirmation and accept the challenge that comes with baptism. To introduce any other form of baptism is to open the way to perversion or misconception.

How exactly does this address my point that the commandments of Christ are for the physical world? Why does it focus on infant baptism? Did you actually write this, or did you borrow it from somebody?

 

[Kevin]

Mark,

I would state that women should not baptize but other women. Not men. Agree/Disagree?

I can't really back this with scripture, but given the context of women's role in the church, I wouldn't want to be baptized by a woman if at all possible. Kev ducks in preparation of things to be thrown at him...

 

[c.moore]

Kevin
I will responce to the last post after this teaching I think you missed and don`t understand about being saved, and doing commandment works for salvation.
This is why I said to get into a anointed teaching church, and a anointed pastor that rightly divide the Word of God so you can get the whole truth and get Spiritual wisdom,and know about the Spiritual word or Kingdom of God World which is upside down to the unbelievers and the religious mens.
What I am going to show you biblically is something I heard and studied, and watch from my Spiritual tv father Creflo Dollar who is for the last two month teaching by the anointing on the subject righteousness, and that we are God`s righteous Childrens.
This will explain why Faith only saves and I will like to see after this how you work your way out of what the bible says, and I want to see how your interpretation baptism theology saves stand up to this.
Here we go!
The heading of this chapter in romans 5 is talking about;
Justified Faith

Justified Faith
this chapter is for we, or us , and for the unbelievers as well or sinners.
Let look at this Kevin;
Ro:5:12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Ro:5:13: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Ro:5:14: Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

So Kevin by reading and studying this, we see that we are sinners without doing any wrong automatically because of these scriptures is this correct?---
everyone is born a sinner without doing any bad sins because of the first Adam.


Let`s continue this bible teaching from Creflo Dollar on TBN.

Ro:5:15: But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Ro:5:16: And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Ro:5:17: For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Let look deep into these bible verses Kevin, and those who are decieved that water baptism is salvation.

In verse 15 is showing plainly what is the gift of grace and you can see it is free given ,not earned ,or not worked for and that why I keep telling people that baptism is work and work is not a gift in any form.The work of our righteousness and justification is done for us through one man and that is Jesus Christ, not water baptism or any other works or commandments.
Jesus Christ has set us free alone that also abound unto many or we are in Christ and with Jesus making us al ready righteous and perfect in Jesus.
verse 16 says:
Here we see that sin was given to us by adam and eve, but we can recieve a gift which is for our justification or righteousness without any works or obedience or commandments because we have a gift offered to us that is for our defence, and makes us righteous already and instantly, and we will see this more in this next verses in this chapter of Romans.
verse 17:
In this verse says we can recieve grace AND it tells directly and plainly the other main grace is the gift of righteousness which can only be recieved by faith and believing you recieved this gift that cancelles your condemnation, and gives you the right to everlasting life.
Nothing mention about a gift of water baptism.
A unbeliever goes to hell because he has not the right to have everlasting life like in verse 17, and an unbeliever is not Just like the believer that takes the gift to be justified, or righteous, because only the righteous will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
The key to everlasting life again or being saved is to receive or receiving that you were made righteous 2000 years ago.
the Accepting, and Imbracing,or laying hold is the key to being saved and righteous, and Just before God.

Let`s continue in the teaching that we are rightous without any works, and any kind of baptism, and we have the right to have everlasting life before any water external baptism.

Ro:5:18: Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

In verse 18 we can see again that automatically Adam sin condemns the unbelievers without doing any thing wrong and the same is with the the one man Jesus Christ who did no wrong and gave us a free gift to chose, and take or recieve, and mmake a dicision to believe and trust in the free gift of being righteous , and Just before God , and this qualifies us to enter into the book of life because of Jesus, and to have eternal life because of Jesus gift to us , and because Jesus made it that we are righteous through Jesus.so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

verse 19
the first Adammade hell bound for all unbelievers instantly without any works of sins, and the same ismade for us by the Just, and righteous and perfect Adam Jesus CHrist who made us instantly righteous and just as soon as we recieve Jesus in our hearts and trust and believe in Jesus that we are the righteousness that God made, before any baptism praise God.
My bible says I am the righteousness of God without any kind of works or obedience.

I like these righteous bible scripture that made us Just to enetr into everlasting life before a water baptism.

Ro:3:22: Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference
Ro:3:24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro:3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro:3:26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Ro:3:28: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Ro:3:29: Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Ro:3:30: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Ro:3:31: Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 4:1-6
verse 4 is explained again our rewards which is like a salary we have worked for and earn by works


Romans 5:20,21


Ro:10:3: For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Ro:10:4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Ro:10:5: For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Ro:10:6: But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:

Eph:2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph:2:9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

matt5:20

Phil3:9

Thank God that all the works Jesus did for us so we can not say look and see all I did , and all my powers, and boast in all my ways, and be proud of all your ways. Christian need to let Jesus do the works for us which is already finished for our righteousness, and salvation already 2000 year ago, so water baptism does no way make us just and righteous, ONLY receiveing the grace gift of righteousness qualifies us for eternal life already.

God Bless
peace:up: