The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
HopeofGlory
New member
JusAChristian,
You said:
Again, I ask you where is the verse that says the Holy Spirit is the exclusive element in salvation?
My reply:
Water is an element of the earth and the flesh of men.
The element or "essential need" for salvation is only found in the POWER OF GOD. God's POWER is displayed by the Holy Spirit.
Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the POWER OF THE HOLY GHOST. Rom. 15:13 (KJV)
Jesus Christ is the Spirit.
Now THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor. 3:17 (KJV)
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, CHRIST THE POWER OF GOD, and the wisdom of God. 1 Cor. 1:24 (KJV)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 (KJV)
We are baptized by the POWER OF GOD not by water.
For by one SPIRIT are we ALL BAPTIZED into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)
You said:
You just defeated your argument. Word of God purifies the soul in obedience (1 Peter1:22) This is the same thing that you are saying in John 6:63, but the "spirit" here is not the Holy Spirit
My reply:
The "spirit" is the "words" spoken by the Lord who is the Spirit and power of God and the same Spirit that baptizes us into the Body. There is only one "Spirit" but He speaks words that are "spirit" or breath. We must obey the "spirit" and believe His shed blood is for remission of sins and the flesh profiteth nothing thus we are baptized with blood not water.
You said:
The Law and the Prophets were unto John (the baptist) Luke 16:16, and in no place is their mentioned of baptism. Where do you find baptism in the Old Testament?
My reply:
"Unto" is of continuance or while, it is not excluding the Baptist's message from the law. The ordinances under the law were still in force before the death of Christ.
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col. 2:14 (KJV)
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. 2 Cor. 3:14 (KJV)
The law or the old testament were in force the period of time before the death of Christ. Therefore water baptism was a part of the old testament under the law. The "new" testament (Matt 26:28) was not "effectual" before Christ died.
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. Heb. 9:16 (KJV)
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Heb. 9:17 (KJV)
You said:
There is nothing about baptism in that law. The prophets never baptzed until John came to the scene.(Luke 16:16).
My reply:
In the Mosaic law baptism (washing) was required by the priest before the sacrifice. What was new under the Baptist's ministry is that the whole nation was to be made a priesthood.
You said:
From the preaching of the kingdom of God until now, there has been one baptism for man to obey. Than is immersion in water for the remission of sins.
My reply:
The one baptism for today is Spirit baptism and our sins are remitted with blood (Matt 26:28) not water (Acts 2:38).
You said:
The Holy Spirit is the servant of God. God did not appoint him to save. Jesus saves by his grace.
My reply:
The Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ!!!
Did you ever wonder why Jesus had to go away before the Holy Ghost could come?
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor. 3:17 (KJV)
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph. 4:4 (KJV)
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph. 4:5 (KJV)
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Eph. 4:6 (KJV)
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Eph. 4:7 (KJV)
All are One!!!!!!
In Christ
Craig
You said:
Again, I ask you where is the verse that says the Holy Spirit is the exclusive element in salvation?
My reply:
Water is an element of the earth and the flesh of men.
The element or "essential need" for salvation is only found in the POWER OF GOD. God's POWER is displayed by the Holy Spirit.
Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the POWER OF THE HOLY GHOST. Rom. 15:13 (KJV)
Jesus Christ is the Spirit.
Now THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor. 3:17 (KJV)
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, CHRIST THE POWER OF GOD, and the wisdom of God. 1 Cor. 1:24 (KJV)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 (KJV)
We are baptized by the POWER OF GOD not by water.
For by one SPIRIT are we ALL BAPTIZED into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)
You said:
You just defeated your argument. Word of God purifies the soul in obedience (1 Peter1:22) This is the same thing that you are saying in John 6:63, but the "spirit" here is not the Holy Spirit
My reply:
The "spirit" is the "words" spoken by the Lord who is the Spirit and power of God and the same Spirit that baptizes us into the Body. There is only one "Spirit" but He speaks words that are "spirit" or breath. We must obey the "spirit" and believe His shed blood is for remission of sins and the flesh profiteth nothing thus we are baptized with blood not water.
You said:
The Law and the Prophets were unto John (the baptist) Luke 16:16, and in no place is their mentioned of baptism. Where do you find baptism in the Old Testament?
My reply:
"Unto" is of continuance or while, it is not excluding the Baptist's message from the law. The ordinances under the law were still in force before the death of Christ.
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col. 2:14 (KJV)
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. 2 Cor. 3:14 (KJV)
The law or the old testament were in force the period of time before the death of Christ. Therefore water baptism was a part of the old testament under the law. The "new" testament (Matt 26:28) was not "effectual" before Christ died.
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. Heb. 9:16 (KJV)
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Heb. 9:17 (KJV)
You said:
There is nothing about baptism in that law. The prophets never baptzed until John came to the scene.(Luke 16:16).
My reply:
In the Mosaic law baptism (washing) was required by the priest before the sacrifice. What was new under the Baptist's ministry is that the whole nation was to be made a priesthood.
You said:
From the preaching of the kingdom of God until now, there has been one baptism for man to obey. Than is immersion in water for the remission of sins.
My reply:
The one baptism for today is Spirit baptism and our sins are remitted with blood (Matt 26:28) not water (Acts 2:38).
You said:
The Holy Spirit is the servant of God. God did not appoint him to save. Jesus saves by his grace.
My reply:
The Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ!!!
Did you ever wonder why Jesus had to go away before the Holy Ghost could come?
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor. 3:17 (KJV)
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph. 4:4 (KJV)
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph. 4:5 (KJV)
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Eph. 4:6 (KJV)
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Eph. 4:7 (KJV)
All are One!!!!!!
In Christ
Craig
JustAChristian
New member
Why Don't You Analyze..........
Why Don't You Analyze..........
...Mark 16:16 "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved"
He -- third person singular of " I "
That believes -- the act of having faith in something.
and -- a conjuction that connect two equal thoughts.
is baptized -- the act of being immersed.
(he) will be saved -- 2nd future passive of the Greek word for "save", "szso" ( with a long o).
The action of the person is to believe and then be baptized. The end result of the belief is salvation. The fact to believe is the gospel as spelled out by the context of Mark 16:15. Jesus specified this action. We discredit his gospel when we discredit this action. It is too serious to discount, but more people than you have done so and will do so. However, we we stand before Christ, he will ask. Did you believe the gospel that I delivered for you salvation
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (Matthew 7:22).
Then what will be the Lord's answer?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Lord, don't let me become self-righteousness and cause myself to be numbered among that number!
JustAChristian
Why Don't You Analyze..........
...Mark 16:16 "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved"
He -- third person singular of " I "
That believes -- the act of having faith in something.
and -- a conjuction that connect two equal thoughts.
is baptized -- the act of being immersed.
(he) will be saved -- 2nd future passive of the Greek word for "save", "szso" ( with a long o).
The action of the person is to believe and then be baptized. The end result of the belief is salvation. The fact to believe is the gospel as spelled out by the context of Mark 16:15. Jesus specified this action. We discredit his gospel when we discredit this action. It is too serious to discount, but more people than you have done so and will do so. However, we we stand before Christ, he will ask. Did you believe the gospel that I delivered for you salvation
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (Matthew 7:22).
Then what will be the Lord's answer?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Lord, don't let me become self-righteousness and cause myself to be numbered among that number!
JustAChristian
JustAChristian
New member
Where?
Where?
Please "cut and paste" the statement that says "water saves" from my post.
JustAChristian
Where?
Please "cut and paste" the statement that says "water saves" from my post.
JustAChristian
HopeofGlory
New member
JustAChristian,
You said:
...Mark 16:16 "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved"
My reply:
Where is water in this verse? It is not there!!!!
You choose to interpret the spirit words of Christ by the actions of men. This baptism is by the Spirit! Jesus is that Spirit!! As Jesus said..For John truly baptized with water; but (on the contrary) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)
Jesus DID NOT COMMAND water baptism.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt. 28:19 (KJV)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
It is clear the apostles are being instructed to teach and the teaching of the word will baptize them. The word is spirit and it is by this word we are baptized...It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life John 6:63 (KJV). The quickening of the spirit (baptism) is immediate when the words of the new testament are believed. The new testament is a new testimony with a greater witness (John 5:33-36) for remission of sins (Matt. 26:28) as opposed to the old testimony for remission (Mark 1:4)(Acts 2:38).
The apostles were commanded to baptize with the WORD!
For Christ sent (after the cross) me not to (water) baptize, but to preach the gospel.... 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)
Why would Christ send Paul NOT to water baptize if the GREAT COMMISSION was... You apostles go water baptize? There is no rhyme to this type of reasoning. Man’s doctrine teaches water baptism was commanded by Jesus in “the great commission” but the words of Jesus testify that it was Spirit baptism.
Your analysis:
He -- third person singular of " I "
That believes -- the act of having faith in something.
and -- a conjuction that connect two equal thoughts.
is baptized -- the act of being immersed.
(he) will be saved -- 2nd future passive of the Greek word for "save", "szso" ( with a long o).
My reply:
Your analysis is based on a false premise therefore your conclusion is erroneous.
You said:
The action of the person is to believe and then be baptized. The end result of the belief is salvation. The fact to believe is the gospel as spelled out by the context of Mark 16:15. Jesus specified this action. We discredit his gospel when we discredit this action. It is too serious to discount, but more people than you have done so and will do so. However, we we stand before Christ, he will ask. Did you believe the gospel that I delivered for you salvation
My reply:
Believing requires no action or work on the part of the believer only faith!!! As jesus said..."It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing"!!! Therefore He specified no action!!!
I will say I did not believe the words of men but I believed the words of the new testament you sent to the world by Jesus Christ.
You said:
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (Matthew 7:22).
Then what will be the Lord's answer?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
My reply:
These words of the Lord are in referrence those that heard the message at Pentecost and receive "power". It is the same message that does not contain the shed blood of Christ Jesus for remission of sins.
You said:
Lord, don't let me become self-righteousness and cause myself to be numbered among that number!
My reply:
Amen!!!!
In Christ
Craig
You said:
...Mark 16:16 "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved"
My reply:
Where is water in this verse? It is not there!!!!
You choose to interpret the spirit words of Christ by the actions of men. This baptism is by the Spirit! Jesus is that Spirit!! As Jesus said..For John truly baptized with water; but (on the contrary) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)
Jesus DID NOT COMMAND water baptism.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt. 28:19 (KJV)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
It is clear the apostles are being instructed to teach and the teaching of the word will baptize them. The word is spirit and it is by this word we are baptized...It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life John 6:63 (KJV). The quickening of the spirit (baptism) is immediate when the words of the new testament are believed. The new testament is a new testimony with a greater witness (John 5:33-36) for remission of sins (Matt. 26:28) as opposed to the old testimony for remission (Mark 1:4)(Acts 2:38).
The apostles were commanded to baptize with the WORD!
For Christ sent (after the cross) me not to (water) baptize, but to preach the gospel.... 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)
Why would Christ send Paul NOT to water baptize if the GREAT COMMISSION was... You apostles go water baptize? There is no rhyme to this type of reasoning. Man’s doctrine teaches water baptism was commanded by Jesus in “the great commission” but the words of Jesus testify that it was Spirit baptism.
Your analysis:
He -- third person singular of " I "
That believes -- the act of having faith in something.
and -- a conjuction that connect two equal thoughts.
is baptized -- the act of being immersed.
(he) will be saved -- 2nd future passive of the Greek word for "save", "szso" ( with a long o).
My reply:
Your analysis is based on a false premise therefore your conclusion is erroneous.
You said:
The action of the person is to believe and then be baptized. The end result of the belief is salvation. The fact to believe is the gospel as spelled out by the context of Mark 16:15. Jesus specified this action. We discredit his gospel when we discredit this action. It is too serious to discount, but more people than you have done so and will do so. However, we we stand before Christ, he will ask. Did you believe the gospel that I delivered for you salvation
My reply:
Believing requires no action or work on the part of the believer only faith!!! As jesus said..."It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing"!!! Therefore He specified no action!!!
I will say I did not believe the words of men but I believed the words of the new testament you sent to the world by Jesus Christ.
You said:
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (Matthew 7:22).
Then what will be the Lord's answer?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
My reply:
These words of the Lord are in referrence those that heard the message at Pentecost and receive "power". It is the same message that does not contain the shed blood of Christ Jesus for remission of sins.
You said:
Lord, don't let me become self-righteousness and cause myself to be numbered among that number!
My reply:
Amen!!!!
In Christ
Craig
HopeofGlory
New member
JusAChristian,
You said:
Craig would have you believe that there are two gospels. One for the Jews and one for the Gentiles.
My reply:
There is only ONE GOSPEL and it was spoken by the Lord Jesus Christ. His words command life and that life is eternal. All other words are to be judged by His Spirit words and that includes the words of apostles.
You said:
The apostles did not know this and they were inspired men. They all preached the same thing (Eph. 3:1-7).
My reply:
Pregressive understanding of God's revelation is with all men.
You said:
He wants you to think that since Peter didn't mention about the blood of Christ on Pentecost, it wasn't a gospel for the Jews.
My reply:
I never said this and again I ask you to quote what I said because your confusion continues.
The new testament is given to the world for all men to believe and receive eternal remission. The longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 2 Pet. 3:15 (KJV)
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Pet. 3:16 (KJV)
You said:
What does he think Paul's sins were washed away with, Bon-ami?
My reply:
Again you display your method of determining truth by the words of men! It was Annanias that instructed Paul to wash away his sins in water and he was a devout man according to the LAW (Acts 22:12).
Christ Jesus died on the cross to remove the LAW!!!!!!
In Christ
Craig
You said:
Craig would have you believe that there are two gospels. One for the Jews and one for the Gentiles.
My reply:
There is only ONE GOSPEL and it was spoken by the Lord Jesus Christ. His words command life and that life is eternal. All other words are to be judged by His Spirit words and that includes the words of apostles.
You said:
The apostles did not know this and they were inspired men. They all preached the same thing (Eph. 3:1-7).
My reply:
Pregressive understanding of God's revelation is with all men.
You said:
He wants you to think that since Peter didn't mention about the blood of Christ on Pentecost, it wasn't a gospel for the Jews.
My reply:
I never said this and again I ask you to quote what I said because your confusion continues.
The new testament is given to the world for all men to believe and receive eternal remission. The longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 2 Pet. 3:15 (KJV)
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Pet. 3:16 (KJV)
You said:
What does he think Paul's sins were washed away with, Bon-ami?
My reply:
Again you display your method of determining truth by the words of men! It was Annanias that instructed Paul to wash away his sins in water and he was a devout man according to the LAW (Acts 22:12).
Christ Jesus died on the cross to remove the LAW!!!!!!
In Christ
Craig
D
Dee Dee Warren
Guest
Dear Craig:
You said,
This is very interesting.
You said,
This is very interesting.
HopeofGlory
New member
OFFENCE TO THE CROSS
======================
The need for a blood sacrifice for remission of sin is the great theme of scripture but the blood of bulls and goats was a mere shadow that could not take away sin. What we must recognize is the vast difference between the blood offering of bulls and goats (law) and the precious blood of the lamb of God (grace). The apostles remained jealous of the law (works) and offerings for sin (Acts 21:26) after the cross even up to the Jerusalem council (Acts 21:20). Paul’s epistles clearly reveal the law was an offence to the cross (Roms. 5:19-20) and it was the most important message second only to the cross which done away with the law (Col. 2:14). The line of opposition was clear, it was the law against the cross therefore the "promise" was not received at Pentecost as Peter confirms with these words ....The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:9). The factual evidence within the word of God can not be denied and we are instructed to rightly divide the word (2 Tim. 2:15).
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. John 6:53 (KJV)
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 (KJV)
This statement by our Lord to the apostles offended them and their reply was "who can hear (believe) it (John 6:60)" for they did not discern the Lord‘s body! The law taught that it was an offence to consume blood and we have to understand that Jesus knew the apostles would refuse it and yet the offer had to be made...to the Jew first! The law of works ran through their veins and was the center of their very being and it could not be denied.
It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood. Lev. 3:17 (KJV)
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: Rom. 5:20 (KJV)
The "new" testament was being delivered to them and it was to be received by the spirit (faith) and was beyond the apostles comprehension and yet it would fulfill the prophetic words of Christ...The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof (Matt. 21:43). Gentiles are that nation and the new testament would be delivered to them by Paul (Rom. 3:25). The training up of Paul would be as the apostles and was progressive but this training up would be accomplished by the Spirit of Christ based on the new testament (Matt. 26:28) and began with his conversion on Damascus road when his name was Saul. After Paul’s conversion we see a progressive change in the message and Paul will participate in the old message until he has progressively received the “mystery” revelations from Christ (Gals. 1:11-12) and at one point Paul was even caught up into heaven (2 Cor. 12:4). Ananias was the one that instructed Paul to be water baptized for remission of sins after the cross and he was.... A DEVOUT MAN ACCORDING TO THE LAW Acts 22:12 (KJV). Paul did baptize some but scripture testifies that at a later date Christ sent him to the Gentiles and instructed him "not to baptize"(1Cor 1:17). Why did Christ send Paul NOT to baptize? It is because Paul received progressive revelations of a greater witness (John 5:36) that was of God. Water baptism in the dispensation of it's inception through obedience (works) "gave remission of sins" under the law and it can not be argued unless you choose to go against the word of God. The message was one that not only had to be obeyed (Acts 5:32) but it also demanded endurance to the end (Mark 13:13) to receive that remission. Paul now understands by progressive revelation that message is no longer effectual for remission of sins and has been superceded by the greater witness of God at the cross.
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 1 Cor. 1:14 (KJV)
The Gentiles freely received the Pauline message of faith in the new testament and not of works (Rom. 4:6) for they were not of the law (Rom. 6:14) and were without the offense (Acts 13:39-46).
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
Many do not understand these words of Christ Jesus and believe there is profit in their flesh. Christ is speaking of eternal life (Matt. 26:28) and how it is received and explaining it would not be possible of the flesh. The apostles were jealous of the law (works of the flesh) and did not understand this spiritual offer of eternal life as many continue to do today. Spiritual things are not understood by those who believe eternal life can be attained by their obedience in the flesh and they are offended by the cross because they trust in their own works and not the FINISHED work of Christ.
In Christ
Craig
======================
The need for a blood sacrifice for remission of sin is the great theme of scripture but the blood of bulls and goats was a mere shadow that could not take away sin. What we must recognize is the vast difference between the blood offering of bulls and goats (law) and the precious blood of the lamb of God (grace). The apostles remained jealous of the law (works) and offerings for sin (Acts 21:26) after the cross even up to the Jerusalem council (Acts 21:20). Paul’s epistles clearly reveal the law was an offence to the cross (Roms. 5:19-20) and it was the most important message second only to the cross which done away with the law (Col. 2:14). The line of opposition was clear, it was the law against the cross therefore the "promise" was not received at Pentecost as Peter confirms with these words ....The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:9). The factual evidence within the word of God can not be denied and we are instructed to rightly divide the word (2 Tim. 2:15).
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. John 6:53 (KJV)
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 (KJV)
This statement by our Lord to the apostles offended them and their reply was "who can hear (believe) it (John 6:60)" for they did not discern the Lord‘s body! The law taught that it was an offence to consume blood and we have to understand that Jesus knew the apostles would refuse it and yet the offer had to be made...to the Jew first! The law of works ran through their veins and was the center of their very being and it could not be denied.
It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood. Lev. 3:17 (KJV)
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: Rom. 5:20 (KJV)
The "new" testament was being delivered to them and it was to be received by the spirit (faith) and was beyond the apostles comprehension and yet it would fulfill the prophetic words of Christ...The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof (Matt. 21:43). Gentiles are that nation and the new testament would be delivered to them by Paul (Rom. 3:25). The training up of Paul would be as the apostles and was progressive but this training up would be accomplished by the Spirit of Christ based on the new testament (Matt. 26:28) and began with his conversion on Damascus road when his name was Saul. After Paul’s conversion we see a progressive change in the message and Paul will participate in the old message until he has progressively received the “mystery” revelations from Christ (Gals. 1:11-12) and at one point Paul was even caught up into heaven (2 Cor. 12:4). Ananias was the one that instructed Paul to be water baptized for remission of sins after the cross and he was.... A DEVOUT MAN ACCORDING TO THE LAW Acts 22:12 (KJV). Paul did baptize some but scripture testifies that at a later date Christ sent him to the Gentiles and instructed him "not to baptize"(1Cor 1:17). Why did Christ send Paul NOT to baptize? It is because Paul received progressive revelations of a greater witness (John 5:36) that was of God. Water baptism in the dispensation of it's inception through obedience (works) "gave remission of sins" under the law and it can not be argued unless you choose to go against the word of God. The message was one that not only had to be obeyed (Acts 5:32) but it also demanded endurance to the end (Mark 13:13) to receive that remission. Paul now understands by progressive revelation that message is no longer effectual for remission of sins and has been superceded by the greater witness of God at the cross.
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 1 Cor. 1:14 (KJV)
The Gentiles freely received the Pauline message of faith in the new testament and not of works (Rom. 4:6) for they were not of the law (Rom. 6:14) and were without the offense (Acts 13:39-46).
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
Many do not understand these words of Christ Jesus and believe there is profit in their flesh. Christ is speaking of eternal life (Matt. 26:28) and how it is received and explaining it would not be possible of the flesh. The apostles were jealous of the law (works of the flesh) and did not understand this spiritual offer of eternal life as many continue to do today. Spiritual things are not understood by those who believe eternal life can be attained by their obedience in the flesh and they are offended by the cross because they trust in their own works and not the FINISHED work of Christ.
In Christ
Craig
D
Dee Dee Warren
Guest
JustAChristian
New member
Replying to Craig's latest post
Replying to Craig's latest post
In answering Craig's post, I will place my answers in bold print for separation from his quotes.
You said:
...Mark 16:16 "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved"
My reply:
Where is water in this verse? It is not there!!!!
Craig, you will find the water in John 3:5; Acts 8:36; Acts 22:16; and 1 Peter 3:21. By virtue of these verses, we infer that water is the element that is spoken of here
You choose to interpret the spirit words of Christ by the actions of men. This baptism is by the Spirit! Jesus is that Spirit!! As Jesus said..For John truly baptized with water; but (on the contrary) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)
Craig, Christ and the Holy Spirit are two separate entities. Who are the "ye" of Acts 1:5
Jesus DID NOT COMMAND water baptism.
Jesus said the Spirit would bring to your remembrance all thing I have said to you, and you are commanded to teach them to the people (John 14:26; Matthew 28:20). The Holy Spirit led the apostles to preach baptism for the remission, therefore, what the apostles taught was that commanded of Christ.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt. 28:19 (KJV)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
The blood will only cleanse when it is spiritually applied. Where is it spiritually applied? In baptism. (Acts 22:16)
"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh" (Heb 9:12-13).
It is clear the apostles are being instructed to teach and the teaching of the word will baptize them.
If you are saying, the teaching of the word will cause one to eventually be baptized, this is true (1 Peter 1:21-22).
The word is spirit and it is by this word we are baptized
The word has spiritual application and give new life in the new birth, but the word is not Holy Spirit.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life John 6:63 (KJV).
As the flesh without the spirit is dead, so is the spiritual life of a person with the spiritual application of the word. But, this is not Holy Spirit.
The quickening of the spirit (baptism) is immediate when the words of the new testament are believed.
You have a true concept but the spirit is the spiritual application of the word of God and not Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit baptism was never for "quickening" it was to endow with power and to prove the authority of God, as with the events at the house of Cornelius. The Ethiopian nobleman never experienced Holy Spirit baptism, but he was able to go on his way rejoicing knowing he was saved.
The new testament is a new testimony with a greater witness (John 5:33-36) for remission of sins (Matt. 26:28) as opposed to the old testimony for remission (Mark 1:4)(Acts 2:38).
Again, I point out to you that you are trying to make baptism an ordinance of the Law of Moses, but it never was. Also, you are trying to apply the blood of Christ without going through the proper means of application which is immersion into Christ (Acts 22:16; Gal. 3:26-27; John 3:5).
The apostles were commanded to baptize with the WORD!
Where do you find this? They were to preach the word (2 Tim 4:2; Acts 16:6), for it has spiritual properties that will make you WISE UNTO SALVATION ( 2Tim 3:15).
For Christ sent (after the cross) me not to (water) baptize, but to preach the gospel.... 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)
Paul's main thrust was to preach for "faith comes by hearing" (Romans 10:17), but he was never told not to baptize. This is understood by the mere fact that he baptized many people. When you understand that this verse is elliptical (which you are afraid to study about), then you will become a better Bible student.
Why would Christ send Paul NOT to water baptize if the GREAT COMMISSION was... You apostles go water baptize? There is no rhyme to this type of reasoning. Man’’s doctrine teaches water baptism was commanded by Jesus in ““the great commission”” but the words of Jesus testify that it was Spirit baptism.
Again, study ellipsis for a better understanding of this context.
Your analysis: He -- third person singular of " I "
That believes -- the act of having faith in something.
and -- a conjuction that connect two equal thoughts.
is baptized -- the act of being immersed.
(he) will be saved -- 2nd future passive of the Greek word for "save", "szso" ( with a long o).
My reply:
Your analysis is based on a false premise therefore your conclusion is erroneous.
Merely stating a hypothesis is erroneous without showing the error is no correction at all. Where is the error? What is the false premise?
You said:
The action of the person is to believe and then be baptized. The end result of the belief is salvation. The fact to believe is the gospel as spelled out by the context of Mark 16:15. Jesus specified this action. We discredit his gospel when we discredit this action. It is too serious to discount, but more people than you have done so and will do so. However, we we stand before Christ, he will ask. Did you believe the gospel that I delivered for you salvation
My reply:
Believing requires no action or work on the part of the believer only faith!!
Give us a definition of belief and faith. Are they not related? Do they not have correlation?
As jesus said..."It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing"!!! Therefore He specified no action!!!
Then we are NOT saved by grace THROUGH faith....?
I will say I did not believe the words of men but I believed the words of the new testament you sent to the world by Jesus Christ.
Did you really sit down and study this over before you posted this information? I am surprised that you are coming up with such erratic rational Of course, we can not be saved through obedience to man's words, but we do have to be obedient to the word of God (1 Peter 1:21-22).
You said:
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (Matthew 7:22).
Then what will be the Lord's answer?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
My reply:
These words of the Lord are in referrence those that heard the message at Pentecost and receive "power". It is the same message that does not contain the shed blood of Christ Jesus for remission of sins.
These words have application to all people throughout all generations that refused to listen to the Lord and sought to please him with their own ways of worship. They are the "Nadabs and Abihus" of the modern era that bring in all sorts of innovations and preaching thinking God will be please so long as they are sincere. Sincerity will not save, on truth will save (John 17:17).
You said:
Lord, don't let me become self-righteousness and cause myself to be numbered among that number!
My reply:
Amen!!!!
In Christ
Craig
Craig has made an attempt to answer my last post, but he has failed to show that the Holy Spirit is the element in salvation. He has failed to show that baptism is apart of thej Law of Moses and the Prophets. In fact, all that he has shown is that he is more pleased with the words of man that the words of God throught Jesus. I confinue to pray that he and others that have taken a like course wiell repent and believe the Gospel (Mark 1:15; Acts 3:19; Romans 1:16).
Replying to Craig's latest post
In answering Craig's post, I will place my answers in bold print for separation from his quotes.
JustAChristian,
You said:
...Mark 16:16 "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved"
My reply:
Where is water in this verse? It is not there!!!!
Craig, you will find the water in John 3:5; Acts 8:36; Acts 22:16; and 1 Peter 3:21. By virtue of these verses, we infer that water is the element that is spoken of here
You choose to interpret the spirit words of Christ by the actions of men. This baptism is by the Spirit! Jesus is that Spirit!! As Jesus said..For John truly baptized with water; but (on the contrary) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)
Craig, Christ and the Holy Spirit are two separate entities. Who are the "ye" of Acts 1:5
Jesus DID NOT COMMAND water baptism.
Jesus said the Spirit would bring to your remembrance all thing I have said to you, and you are commanded to teach them to the people (John 14:26; Matthew 28:20). The Holy Spirit led the apostles to preach baptism for the remission, therefore, what the apostles taught was that commanded of Christ.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt. 28:19 (KJV)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
The blood will only cleanse when it is spiritually applied. Where is it spiritually applied? In baptism. (Acts 22:16)
"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh" (Heb 9:12-13).
It is clear the apostles are being instructed to teach and the teaching of the word will baptize them.
If you are saying, the teaching of the word will cause one to eventually be baptized, this is true (1 Peter 1:21-22).
The word is spirit and it is by this word we are baptized
The word has spiritual application and give new life in the new birth, but the word is not Holy Spirit.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life John 6:63 (KJV).
As the flesh without the spirit is dead, so is the spiritual life of a person with the spiritual application of the word. But, this is not Holy Spirit.
The quickening of the spirit (baptism) is immediate when the words of the new testament are believed.
You have a true concept but the spirit is the spiritual application of the word of God and not Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit baptism was never for "quickening" it was to endow with power and to prove the authority of God, as with the events at the house of Cornelius. The Ethiopian nobleman never experienced Holy Spirit baptism, but he was able to go on his way rejoicing knowing he was saved.
The new testament is a new testimony with a greater witness (John 5:33-36) for remission of sins (Matt. 26:28) as opposed to the old testimony for remission (Mark 1:4)(Acts 2:38).
Again, I point out to you that you are trying to make baptism an ordinance of the Law of Moses, but it never was. Also, you are trying to apply the blood of Christ without going through the proper means of application which is immersion into Christ (Acts 22:16; Gal. 3:26-27; John 3:5).
The apostles were commanded to baptize with the WORD!
Where do you find this? They were to preach the word (2 Tim 4:2; Acts 16:6), for it has spiritual properties that will make you WISE UNTO SALVATION ( 2Tim 3:15).
For Christ sent (after the cross) me not to (water) baptize, but to preach the gospel.... 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)
Paul's main thrust was to preach for "faith comes by hearing" (Romans 10:17), but he was never told not to baptize. This is understood by the mere fact that he baptized many people. When you understand that this verse is elliptical (which you are afraid to study about), then you will become a better Bible student.
Why would Christ send Paul NOT to water baptize if the GREAT COMMISSION was... You apostles go water baptize? There is no rhyme to this type of reasoning. Man’’s doctrine teaches water baptism was commanded by Jesus in ““the great commission”” but the words of Jesus testify that it was Spirit baptism.
Again, study ellipsis for a better understanding of this context.
Your analysis: He -- third person singular of " I "
That believes -- the act of having faith in something.
and -- a conjuction that connect two equal thoughts.
is baptized -- the act of being immersed.
(he) will be saved -- 2nd future passive of the Greek word for "save", "szso" ( with a long o).
My reply:
Your analysis is based on a false premise therefore your conclusion is erroneous.
Merely stating a hypothesis is erroneous without showing the error is no correction at all. Where is the error? What is the false premise?
You said:
The action of the person is to believe and then be baptized. The end result of the belief is salvation. The fact to believe is the gospel as spelled out by the context of Mark 16:15. Jesus specified this action. We discredit his gospel when we discredit this action. It is too serious to discount, but more people than you have done so and will do so. However, we we stand before Christ, he will ask. Did you believe the gospel that I delivered for you salvation
My reply:
Believing requires no action or work on the part of the believer only faith!!
Give us a definition of belief and faith. Are they not related? Do they not have correlation?
As jesus said..."It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing"!!! Therefore He specified no action!!!
Then we are NOT saved by grace THROUGH faith....?
I will say I did not believe the words of men but I believed the words of the new testament you sent to the world by Jesus Christ.
Did you really sit down and study this over before you posted this information? I am surprised that you are coming up with such erratic rational Of course, we can not be saved through obedience to man's words, but we do have to be obedient to the word of God (1 Peter 1:21-22).
You said:
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (Matthew 7:22).
Then what will be the Lord's answer?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
My reply:
These words of the Lord are in referrence those that heard the message at Pentecost and receive "power". It is the same message that does not contain the shed blood of Christ Jesus for remission of sins.
These words have application to all people throughout all generations that refused to listen to the Lord and sought to please him with their own ways of worship. They are the "Nadabs and Abihus" of the modern era that bring in all sorts of innovations and preaching thinking God will be please so long as they are sincere. Sincerity will not save, on truth will save (John 17:17).
You said:
Lord, don't let me become self-righteousness and cause myself to be numbered among that number!
My reply:
Amen!!!!
In Christ
Craig
Craig has made an attempt to answer my last post, but he has failed to show that the Holy Spirit is the element in salvation. He has failed to show that baptism is apart of thej Law of Moses and the Prophets. In fact, all that he has shown is that he is more pleased with the words of man that the words of God throught Jesus. I confinue to pray that he and others that have taken a like course wiell repent and believe the Gospel (Mark 1:15; Acts 3:19; Romans 1:16).
JustAChristian
New member
Re: The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!
Re: The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!
Recounting some of the important fact that I have already said, If you believe you are saved before you are baptized, then you believe you can be saved outside of Christ. I invite you to read Ephesians 1:3 and Galatians 3:27. If you find that all spiritual blessings are in Christ, and that we are baptized into Christ, then you must conclude that since salvation is a spiritual blessing obtained in Christ, then we are not saved until we are baptized into Christ.
We have learned that the Bible actually tells us that baptism saves us. Read for yourself in 1 Peter 3:20.21. Actually anytime baptism is mentioned in connection with being saved, baptism always comes first, See Mark 16:15-16, Acts 2:38, and Act 22:16.
If you take the position that one is saved at the point of faith only, then you have to throw out the scriptures on repentance, confession, and baptism. The Bible in fact teaches that we are not saved by faith only (see James 2:17-20). Every act of conversion in the book of Acts culminated in the people being baptized. There is not an exception. In fact, each had to believe, repent, confess, and be baptized before they were saved. How do I know this? It’s because Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow (Heb. 13:8). God does not have a special preference for anyone. All are treated the same under the law of Christ (Acts 10:34-35; Gal. 3:28).
The act of infant sprinkling for baptism, is popular in some denominations, but there is not a single example of infant baptism. Some believe that infants are born with sin that they inherited from Adam. However the Bible plainly teaches that sin is not inherited (Ezekiel 18:20). “ The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.” There is no sound reason to believe infants have sins. Moses also wrote what God said after the flood, “…And the Lord said in His heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth…” Whatever you read in the Bible, it must be interpreted in light of these biblical references in order to harmonize totally. When there is an account of one being baptized in the scriptures, it is a total voluntary acts performed after a confession; actual or implied. Infants can not perform this voluntary act of obedience, therefore baptism is not for infants. In fact sprinkling for Baptism is not scriptural. Baptism is shown in the Bible to be by immersion ( Romans 6:3-5). It is clearly shown to be a burial in a watery grave to rise to walk in newness of life. Baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). Infants don’t have sins. Sin is a voluntary act of transgression (1 Jn.3:4). Under the law of Moses, infants were circumcised the eight day, but we do not substitute infant baptism by sprinkling for circumcision.
In the context of the Philippian Jailor in Acts 16, he was told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and he would be saved. Freak says that nothing is said about baptism. This is true. There is not a single word mentioned in this setting about baptism, but also, there is nothing said about repentance, a Peter said in Acts 2:38, not confessing Christ, as Philip told the Ethiopian Eunuch of Act 8:36-37. You can not rest your understanding on one verse of scripture. You must consider every verse on the subject. Paul declared to the Ephesian Elders of Acts 20:28, that he had told them "all the counsel of God". Don't cut yourself short by discounting any contextual verse on any subject. You can learn the truth only that way.
The doctrine of baptism is so important that just a few minutes on the subject does not render it justice. This is evident by the many post that have been made on this string. Maybe it is coming to an end. Perhaps, some new light on the subject will be shed by someone, but rest assured, I will continue to support and defend that immersion in water, with spiritual application of the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ, is essential to salvation of the soul. I pray that you come to the same understanding.
JustAChristian
Re: The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!
Recounting some of the important fact that I have already said, If you believe you are saved before you are baptized, then you believe you can be saved outside of Christ. I invite you to read Ephesians 1:3 and Galatians 3:27. If you find that all spiritual blessings are in Christ, and that we are baptized into Christ, then you must conclude that since salvation is a spiritual blessing obtained in Christ, then we are not saved until we are baptized into Christ.
We have learned that the Bible actually tells us that baptism saves us. Read for yourself in 1 Peter 3:20.21. Actually anytime baptism is mentioned in connection with being saved, baptism always comes first, See Mark 16:15-16, Acts 2:38, and Act 22:16.
If you take the position that one is saved at the point of faith only, then you have to throw out the scriptures on repentance, confession, and baptism. The Bible in fact teaches that we are not saved by faith only (see James 2:17-20). Every act of conversion in the book of Acts culminated in the people being baptized. There is not an exception. In fact, each had to believe, repent, confess, and be baptized before they were saved. How do I know this? It’s because Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow (Heb. 13:8). God does not have a special preference for anyone. All are treated the same under the law of Christ (Acts 10:34-35; Gal. 3:28).
The act of infant sprinkling for baptism, is popular in some denominations, but there is not a single example of infant baptism. Some believe that infants are born with sin that they inherited from Adam. However the Bible plainly teaches that sin is not inherited (Ezekiel 18:20). “ The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.” There is no sound reason to believe infants have sins. Moses also wrote what God said after the flood, “…And the Lord said in His heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth…” Whatever you read in the Bible, it must be interpreted in light of these biblical references in order to harmonize totally. When there is an account of one being baptized in the scriptures, it is a total voluntary acts performed after a confession; actual or implied. Infants can not perform this voluntary act of obedience, therefore baptism is not for infants. In fact sprinkling for Baptism is not scriptural. Baptism is shown in the Bible to be by immersion ( Romans 6:3-5). It is clearly shown to be a burial in a watery grave to rise to walk in newness of life. Baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). Infants don’t have sins. Sin is a voluntary act of transgression (1 Jn.3:4). Under the law of Moses, infants were circumcised the eight day, but we do not substitute infant baptism by sprinkling for circumcision.
In the context of the Philippian Jailor in Acts 16, he was told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and he would be saved. Freak says that nothing is said about baptism. This is true. There is not a single word mentioned in this setting about baptism, but also, there is nothing said about repentance, a Peter said in Acts 2:38, not confessing Christ, as Philip told the Ethiopian Eunuch of Act 8:36-37. You can not rest your understanding on one verse of scripture. You must consider every verse on the subject. Paul declared to the Ephesian Elders of Acts 20:28, that he had told them "all the counsel of God". Don't cut yourself short by discounting any contextual verse on any subject. You can learn the truth only that way.
The doctrine of baptism is so important that just a few minutes on the subject does not render it justice. This is evident by the many post that have been made on this string. Maybe it is coming to an end. Perhaps, some new light on the subject will be shed by someone, but rest assured, I will continue to support and defend that immersion in water, with spiritual application of the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ, is essential to salvation of the soul. I pray that you come to the same understanding.
JustAChristian
Last edited:
Freak
New member
JustaChristian-
It does appear this thread is winding to down to an end. I believe there are two camps represented here:
The first camp (which includes myself) embraces the biblical view that salvation is only attained through belief in the Person of Jesus Christ and Him alone. Jesus is God so He is capable to save without using any substance (like water) to bring salvation.
The second camp believes water is a essential part in the salvation process. This cultic view degrades the capabliity of Jesus who is God to save. This view believes water is needed to save one from eternal punishment. This fallacy however when exposed to the light of Holy Scripture fails.
It does appear this thread is winding to down to an end. I believe there are two camps represented here:
The first camp (which includes myself) embraces the biblical view that salvation is only attained through belief in the Person of Jesus Christ and Him alone. Jesus is God so He is capable to save without using any substance (like water) to bring salvation.
The second camp believes water is a essential part in the salvation process. This cultic view degrades the capabliity of Jesus who is God to save. This view believes water is needed to save one from eternal punishment. This fallacy however when exposed to the light of Holy Scripture fails.
Beg your pardon ??
Beg your pardon ??
There are indeed two camps represented here. The camp that falsely claims that water baptism is not necessary to appropriate the blessing of salvation from God has failed – dismally!!
If I were in any camp that could not provide more evidence and could not answer any more questions and arguments than the “no water” position did, I would seriously reconsider my position.
God is quite capable of using or not using water to appropriate any blessings He offers to man. I believe it has been abundantly proven here that God chose the element of water through which to grant remission of sins to man. This was made possible by the blood of Christ.
That God requires man to be immersed in water for the remission of sins; does this “degrade” the capability of God to save? The answer is unequivocally no! Ask Naaman or the blind man in John 9. Read Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 22:16, or Romans 6.
The bias and prejudice against this plain command of God is astounding! Out of ignorance and convenience has the “no baptism required” heresy spread – ignorance of understanding what “faith” is and convenience of just skipping the immersion. This is exactly “cult” thinking!
Man is required to DO SOMETHING to obtain his salvation. I suggest you do ALL that God requires to obtain it !!
He that believes and is baptized shall be saved. - Jesus
Beg your pardon ??
There are indeed two camps represented here. The camp that falsely claims that water baptism is not necessary to appropriate the blessing of salvation from God has failed – dismally!!
If I were in any camp that could not provide more evidence and could not answer any more questions and arguments than the “no water” position did, I would seriously reconsider my position.
God is quite capable of using or not using water to appropriate any blessings He offers to man. I believe it has been abundantly proven here that God chose the element of water through which to grant remission of sins to man. This was made possible by the blood of Christ.
That God requires man to be immersed in water for the remission of sins; does this “degrade” the capability of God to save? The answer is unequivocally no! Ask Naaman or the blind man in John 9. Read Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 22:16, or Romans 6.
The bias and prejudice against this plain command of God is astounding! Out of ignorance and convenience has the “no baptism required” heresy spread – ignorance of understanding what “faith” is and convenience of just skipping the immersion. This is exactly “cult” thinking!
Man is required to DO SOMETHING to obtain his salvation. I suggest you do ALL that God requires to obtain it !!
He that believes and is baptized shall be saved. - Jesus
JustAChristian
New member
All the answers...........?
All the answers...........?
What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. (1 Cor. 14:36-37).
My Pappy use to say, "You don't whip a dead horse" I wondered about that for a long time and then I realized that there are things that will never change, and as much as you do to try to change them they want. So, I'm going to stop whipping on this thread seeing that the opposition is offering nothing that is challenging, much less, scriptural. Well, you might ask, how can I say that? Well, if I offer scripture then I can't be wrong. If they could show on "shread" of evidence that the Holy Spirit, as an element, cleanses the heart of sin then they would have a strong argument for their faith. However, we are purified by obedience to the truth (1 Peter 1:21-22). Baptism for remission of sins is "truth". Everyone must see and believe that.
The scriptures say:
1. Hear the word of God (Romans 10 16:17)
2. Believe the word of God (John 8:24, 32).
3. Repent of Sins (Luke 13:3; Acts 17:30-31)
3. Be immersed for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38; 2:16).
4. Rise to walk in newness of life (Romans 6:5).
Do this and the Lord adds you to the church (Acts 2:47). The church is the saved body (Gal. 1:18). There is no salvation outside of Christ (Col 1:14). We are baptized into Christ (Gal 3:26-27). When I obey the Lord, I am rewarded with spiritual blessings (Heb 5:8-9; Rom 1:5).
I will be away for a few weeks. I will join you on other threads.
JustAChristian
All the answers...........?
What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. (1 Cor. 14:36-37).
My Pappy use to say, "You don't whip a dead horse" I wondered about that for a long time and then I realized that there are things that will never change, and as much as you do to try to change them they want. So, I'm going to stop whipping on this thread seeing that the opposition is offering nothing that is challenging, much less, scriptural. Well, you might ask, how can I say that? Well, if I offer scripture then I can't be wrong. If they could show on "shread" of evidence that the Holy Spirit, as an element, cleanses the heart of sin then they would have a strong argument for their faith. However, we are purified by obedience to the truth (1 Peter 1:21-22). Baptism for remission of sins is "truth". Everyone must see and believe that.
The scriptures say:
1. Hear the word of God (Romans 10 16:17)
2. Believe the word of God (John 8:24, 32).
3. Repent of Sins (Luke 13:3; Acts 17:30-31)
3. Be immersed for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38; 2:16).
4. Rise to walk in newness of life (Romans 6:5).
Do this and the Lord adds you to the church (Acts 2:47). The church is the saved body (Gal. 1:18). There is no salvation outside of Christ (Col 1:14). We are baptized into Christ (Gal 3:26-27). When I obey the Lord, I am rewarded with spiritual blessings (Heb 5:8-9; Rom 1:5).
I will be away for a few weeks. I will join you on other threads.
JustAChristian
Last edited:
HopeofGlory
New member
Baptism or Mikveh
The word tevilah ("immersion” in Hebrew) is part of the benediction recited during the Jewish mikveh ritual. The ritual washings and cleansings commanded in Mosaic law form the basis for the Judaic mikveh laws. Ancient sages who formulated these rules agreed that the purpose of mikveh was spiritual rather than physical cleansing. They taught that the mikveh cleanses the unclean thus it is a "shadow" of the spiritual cleansing performed by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5). The roots of baptism rest deeply and permanently within Jewish tradition. Water baptism in the gospels or mikveh tradition teach the ritual has the power to cleanse the hearts of men.
In the old testament we read that before giving the Law (shadow of Christ) at Mount Sinai, God commanded all the people to be washed as an act of purification (Exodus 19:11). The mosaic law records the washing of Aaron (Lev. 8:6) and his sons when they were ordained as priests to minister in the holy tabernacle. God commanded Aaron (Lev. 16:4) to wash himself before he ministered in the Holy of Holies on the Day of Atonement. This priestly cleansing by immersion prepared Israel as a nation for the priesthood during the ministry of John the Baptist.
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: (Ex. 19:5)
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel (Ex. 19:6).
John was that voice crying in the wilderness!
For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, "Prepare" ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight (Matt. 3:3).
The Hebrew word mikveh means literally "a collection or gathering together," in this context it refers to a gathering for the purpose of ritual cleansing. The earliest Biblical uses of the word "mikveh" occur in I Kings 7:23. and in 11 Chronicles 4:2. These verses describe the huge, circular "Sea of Solomon," constructed along with the first Temple for the priests to carry out their ceremonial washing.
Along with the purposes already mentioned in the old testament, another use of purification by water became part of early Jewish tradition. This was immersion or baptism for Gentile converts to Judaism. Though the only Biblical requirement for entrance into the covenant was circumcision, baptism became an added requisite. No one knows exactly when the requirements were changed to include baptism, but it was before the time of Jesus placing it within the period of the Mosaic law.
Mikveh was a vital part of Jewish life well before the time of John the Baptist. One finds Mikvehs in medieval Spain, in ancient Italy and in desert outpost of Masada. The way archaeologists determine whether or not a dig is Jewish is by the presence of a Mikveh. This is recorded in halacha (Jewish law) which states that before the synagogue is built, a Mikveh must be established.
Debates on the subject of proselyte baptism are recorded between Shammai and Hillel, both contemporaries of Jesus. The school of Shammai stressed circumcision as the point of transition, the Hillelites considered baptism most important because it granted spiritual cleansing and the beginning of a new life. Ultimately the Hillelite view prevailed. Maimonides, a 12th century Jewish scholar had this to say concerning converts to Judaism.
"By three things did Israel enter into the Covenant: by circumcision, and baptism and sacrifice. Circumcision was in Egypt, as it is written: 'No uncircumcised person shall eat thereof' (Exodus 12:48). Baptism was in the wilderness, just before giving of the Law, as it is written: 'Sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes' (Exodus 19:10). And sacrifice, as it is said: 'And he sent young men of the children of Israel which offered burnt offerings' (Exodus 24:5)...When a gentile is willing to enter the covenant...He must be circumcised and be baptized and bring a sacrifice...And at this time when there is no sacrifice, they must be circumcised and be baptized; and when the Temple shall be built, they are to bring a sacrifice...The gentile that is made a proselyte and the slave that is made free,
behold he is like a child new born."
Gentiles of today who convert to Judaism must undergo baptism in a mikveh ritual. The purpose of this ceremonial immersion is to grant spiritual cleansing, as Maimonides stated in his codification of the laws of mikveh:
Using water to cleanse is an ancient Jewish tradition. When John the Baptist came on the scene, the Jews saw nothing wrong in his demands that people repent and be cleansed in the Jordan River."Baptist" or “baptizer“, comes from the Greek verb baptidzo, which has the same meaning as the Hebrew root taval: to wash by dipping or plunging in water. John's message was in keeping with what all the other Jewish prophets proclaimed. He preached God's judgment, warning that Israel must repent and be spiritually renewed because of the coming of the Messiah was at hand. The self-righteous disagreed but they had no problem with John's method of cleansing. If it had been anything other than their normal tradition the religious leaders would have had him stoned as a false prophet.
John baptized Jesus and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1 :29). Jesus was perfect and sinless, His baptism prepared Him as both Priest and Sacrifice for Israel. In the days Christ walked this earth the Mosaic law was still in effect, those who repented and were cleansed by John in the river still brought animal sacrifices to the Temple to receive God's forgiveness. But after the righteous Messiah gave his life as an atonement for sin, removing the law (Col. 2:14), baptism became a Spiritual operation of God that places us into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13).
The New Covenant or the New Testament requires faith in the atoning blood of Christ as the eternal means for spiritual cleansing (Matt 26:28). Spiritual baptism is the washing away of sin (Titus 3:5) and remission of sin is by faith in Christ's blood sacrifice (Matt.26:28), and the giving of new life by God's Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13). Baptism into His death is a Spiritual baptism (1 Cor. 12:13). The New Testament scriptures teach that by faith we are plunged or buried into his atoning death, so that God might raise us even as the Christ himself rose from the dead.
Maimonides listed the three requirements for Judaism as circumcision, baptism and sacrifice, in that biblical order. Maimonides waived the requirement of sacrifice until the Temple should be rebuilt yet failed to realize that God never waived that requirement. Indeed, that is why God sent the Messiah before the Temple was destroyed, so that all who believed in him would not be left without an acceptable sacrifice for sin. Modern Christianity confuses the biblical order, the sacrifice comes first then water baptism as a symbol of their faith. This confusion is based on their misunderstanding of the purpose and place water baptism had in the roots of Judaism. The scriptures do not teach water baptism as symbolic of what we believe but they reveal it as a cleaning ritual under the Mosaic law to "prepare" for the sacrifice. Because of Christ's blood sacrifice, believers are cleansed "spiritually" and forgiven of their sin. The apostle Paul described it this way in his New Testament letter to the Gentile believers in Colosse:
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (Col. 2:9)
And ye are "complete" in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (Col. 2:10)
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (Col. 2:11)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the "faith" of the "operation of God", who hath raised him from the dead. (Col. 2:12)
Before Christ died one had to be circumcised and baptized to be brought under God's covenant, the New Covenant is inward and visible only to God. By his Spirit, he inscribes his law upon the hearts of all those who commit themselves to him through faith in Jesus’ sacrifice (Jeremiah 31:33). The Scriptures teach that Jews and Gentiles by faith receive circumcision of the heart (Col. 2:11) and Spiritual cleaning (Titus 3:5) the moment they accept the Sacrifice of God. Therefore the "fulfillment" of the Mosaic law is found in the power of the cross (Col. 1:19-20).
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5)
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (Titus 3:6)
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:7).
In Christ
Craig
The word tevilah ("immersion” in Hebrew) is part of the benediction recited during the Jewish mikveh ritual. The ritual washings and cleansings commanded in Mosaic law form the basis for the Judaic mikveh laws. Ancient sages who formulated these rules agreed that the purpose of mikveh was spiritual rather than physical cleansing. They taught that the mikveh cleanses the unclean thus it is a "shadow" of the spiritual cleansing performed by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5). The roots of baptism rest deeply and permanently within Jewish tradition. Water baptism in the gospels or mikveh tradition teach the ritual has the power to cleanse the hearts of men.
In the old testament we read that before giving the Law (shadow of Christ) at Mount Sinai, God commanded all the people to be washed as an act of purification (Exodus 19:11). The mosaic law records the washing of Aaron (Lev. 8:6) and his sons when they were ordained as priests to minister in the holy tabernacle. God commanded Aaron (Lev. 16:4) to wash himself before he ministered in the Holy of Holies on the Day of Atonement. This priestly cleansing by immersion prepared Israel as a nation for the priesthood during the ministry of John the Baptist.
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: (Ex. 19:5)
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel (Ex. 19:6).
John was that voice crying in the wilderness!
For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, "Prepare" ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight (Matt. 3:3).
The Hebrew word mikveh means literally "a collection or gathering together," in this context it refers to a gathering for the purpose of ritual cleansing. The earliest Biblical uses of the word "mikveh" occur in I Kings 7:23. and in 11 Chronicles 4:2. These verses describe the huge, circular "Sea of Solomon," constructed along with the first Temple for the priests to carry out their ceremonial washing.
Along with the purposes already mentioned in the old testament, another use of purification by water became part of early Jewish tradition. This was immersion or baptism for Gentile converts to Judaism. Though the only Biblical requirement for entrance into the covenant was circumcision, baptism became an added requisite. No one knows exactly when the requirements were changed to include baptism, but it was before the time of Jesus placing it within the period of the Mosaic law.
Mikveh was a vital part of Jewish life well before the time of John the Baptist. One finds Mikvehs in medieval Spain, in ancient Italy and in desert outpost of Masada. The way archaeologists determine whether or not a dig is Jewish is by the presence of a Mikveh. This is recorded in halacha (Jewish law) which states that before the synagogue is built, a Mikveh must be established.
Debates on the subject of proselyte baptism are recorded between Shammai and Hillel, both contemporaries of Jesus. The school of Shammai stressed circumcision as the point of transition, the Hillelites considered baptism most important because it granted spiritual cleansing and the beginning of a new life. Ultimately the Hillelite view prevailed. Maimonides, a 12th century Jewish scholar had this to say concerning converts to Judaism.
"By three things did Israel enter into the Covenant: by circumcision, and baptism and sacrifice. Circumcision was in Egypt, as it is written: 'No uncircumcised person shall eat thereof' (Exodus 12:48). Baptism was in the wilderness, just before giving of the Law, as it is written: 'Sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes' (Exodus 19:10). And sacrifice, as it is said: 'And he sent young men of the children of Israel which offered burnt offerings' (Exodus 24:5)...When a gentile is willing to enter the covenant...He must be circumcised and be baptized and bring a sacrifice...And at this time when there is no sacrifice, they must be circumcised and be baptized; and when the Temple shall be built, they are to bring a sacrifice...The gentile that is made a proselyte and the slave that is made free,
behold he is like a child new born."
Gentiles of today who convert to Judaism must undergo baptism in a mikveh ritual. The purpose of this ceremonial immersion is to grant spiritual cleansing, as Maimonides stated in his codification of the laws of mikveh:
Using water to cleanse is an ancient Jewish tradition. When John the Baptist came on the scene, the Jews saw nothing wrong in his demands that people repent and be cleansed in the Jordan River."Baptist" or “baptizer“, comes from the Greek verb baptidzo, which has the same meaning as the Hebrew root taval: to wash by dipping or plunging in water. John's message was in keeping with what all the other Jewish prophets proclaimed. He preached God's judgment, warning that Israel must repent and be spiritually renewed because of the coming of the Messiah was at hand. The self-righteous disagreed but they had no problem with John's method of cleansing. If it had been anything other than their normal tradition the religious leaders would have had him stoned as a false prophet.
John baptized Jesus and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1 :29). Jesus was perfect and sinless, His baptism prepared Him as both Priest and Sacrifice for Israel. In the days Christ walked this earth the Mosaic law was still in effect, those who repented and were cleansed by John in the river still brought animal sacrifices to the Temple to receive God's forgiveness. But after the righteous Messiah gave his life as an atonement for sin, removing the law (Col. 2:14), baptism became a Spiritual operation of God that places us into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13).
The New Covenant or the New Testament requires faith in the atoning blood of Christ as the eternal means for spiritual cleansing (Matt 26:28). Spiritual baptism is the washing away of sin (Titus 3:5) and remission of sin is by faith in Christ's blood sacrifice (Matt.26:28), and the giving of new life by God's Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13). Baptism into His death is a Spiritual baptism (1 Cor. 12:13). The New Testament scriptures teach that by faith we are plunged or buried into his atoning death, so that God might raise us even as the Christ himself rose from the dead.
Maimonides listed the three requirements for Judaism as circumcision, baptism and sacrifice, in that biblical order. Maimonides waived the requirement of sacrifice until the Temple should be rebuilt yet failed to realize that God never waived that requirement. Indeed, that is why God sent the Messiah before the Temple was destroyed, so that all who believed in him would not be left without an acceptable sacrifice for sin. Modern Christianity confuses the biblical order, the sacrifice comes first then water baptism as a symbol of their faith. This confusion is based on their misunderstanding of the purpose and place water baptism had in the roots of Judaism. The scriptures do not teach water baptism as symbolic of what we believe but they reveal it as a cleaning ritual under the Mosaic law to "prepare" for the sacrifice. Because of Christ's blood sacrifice, believers are cleansed "spiritually" and forgiven of their sin. The apostle Paul described it this way in his New Testament letter to the Gentile believers in Colosse:
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (Col. 2:9)
And ye are "complete" in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (Col. 2:10)
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (Col. 2:11)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the "faith" of the "operation of God", who hath raised him from the dead. (Col. 2:12)
Before Christ died one had to be circumcised and baptized to be brought under God's covenant, the New Covenant is inward and visible only to God. By his Spirit, he inscribes his law upon the hearts of all those who commit themselves to him through faith in Jesus’ sacrifice (Jeremiah 31:33). The Scriptures teach that Jews and Gentiles by faith receive circumcision of the heart (Col. 2:11) and Spiritual cleaning (Titus 3:5) the moment they accept the Sacrifice of God. Therefore the "fulfillment" of the Mosaic law is found in the power of the cross (Col. 1:19-20).
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5)
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (Titus 3:6)
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:7).
In Christ
Craig
Last edited:
TWO elements required: Water AND Spirit !!
TWO elements required: Water AND Spirit !!
In John 3:3-5 Jesus tells us about the new birth. Here we are told that –2- elements are required to be “born anew” . It takes water and the spirit.
Except a man be born again, he cannot enter the kingdom.
In Ephesians 5:25-26 Paul tells us that Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it. Jesus did this that He might sanctify the church, “having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word.”
Knowing that the Spirit revealed the word of God and is operative through the word, we see once again that –2- agents are presented to show how one is, in this case, “sanctified”… water and the spirit.
In Titus 3:4-5 we see where the love of God has appeared to save man according to His mercy, “through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.”
Yet again, salvation is acknowledged to be available through –2- agents – water and the spirit.
Now in 1 Corinthians 12:13 many years before the writing of Ephesians and Titus, Paul tells us “For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one body.”
Even ignoring what Paul was preaching and practicing at the time of this writing to the Corinthians and referencing only Paul’s later writings, the only logical conclusion is what?
Paul is telling us that by (the direction of the) one Spirit (through the word) we were all (water) baptized into one body. (See 1 Cor. 6:11.) Even before writing to Ephesus from prison and to Titus, Paul is telling us that –2- agents are necessary - water and the spirit.
The Spirit instructs us through the word to be water baptized for “regeneration”, to be sanctified, to be added to the body, to be born anew – TO BE SAVED !! One cannot enter the kingdom unless –2- agents are employed…
water and the spirit.
TWO elements required: Water AND Spirit !!
In John 3:3-5 Jesus tells us about the new birth. Here we are told that –2- elements are required to be “born anew” . It takes water and the spirit.
Except a man be born again, he cannot enter the kingdom.
In Ephesians 5:25-26 Paul tells us that Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it. Jesus did this that He might sanctify the church, “having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word.”
Knowing that the Spirit revealed the word of God and is operative through the word, we see once again that –2- agents are presented to show how one is, in this case, “sanctified”… water and the spirit.
In Titus 3:4-5 we see where the love of God has appeared to save man according to His mercy, “through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.”
Yet again, salvation is acknowledged to be available through –2- agents – water and the spirit.
Now in 1 Corinthians 12:13 many years before the writing of Ephesians and Titus, Paul tells us “For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one body.”
Even ignoring what Paul was preaching and practicing at the time of this writing to the Corinthians and referencing only Paul’s later writings, the only logical conclusion is what?
Paul is telling us that by (the direction of the) one Spirit (through the word) we were all (water) baptized into one body. (See 1 Cor. 6:11.) Even before writing to Ephesus from prison and to Titus, Paul is telling us that –2- agents are necessary - water and the spirit.
The Spirit instructs us through the word to be water baptized for “regeneration”, to be sanctified, to be added to the body, to be born anew – TO BE SAVED !! One cannot enter the kingdom unless –2- agents are employed…
water and the spirit.
HopeofGlory
New member
Behold all things are become new and all things are of God!!
Behold all things are become new and all things are of God!!
In the beginning the earth was created by the Word of God. The very breath or Spirit of God moved and the visible realm of our existence was created (Gen. 1:2). We are bound to this earthly realm by the flesh and it appears we must die of the flesh to enter the Spiritual realm (Roms. 8:8-10). We know that Christ created the world (Col. 1:16) therefore we can know that Christ is the Spirit of God (2 Cor. 3:17). John tells us that the Word is the light of men (John 1:4) and Christ Jesus is that light (Luke 2:32). The Spirit that brought light to the darkness on the face of the deep (Genesis 1:2-3) is the same light that “shineth” in the darkness of the heart of man (John 1:5). Christ in the beginning was Spirit and He was made flesh (John 1:14) to enter into the earthly realm of man to deliver a eternal redemptive message of His death (John 6:54). The natural man cannot receive this offer of eternal life (2 Cor. 2:14) because it is spiritually discerned. When Christ Jesus ascended back to the Father He regained the form He had from the beginning (Col. 1:15) as the Light (John 1:7) that “shineth in darkness”. His appearance to Saul on Damascus road (Acts 9:3-7) testifies to this truth. Saul fell to the ground immersed in the light as John did (Rev. 1:17) at the appearance of the great Light and today that Light shines in or immerses the hearts of men (Eph. 3:16-21). These appearances clearly reveal His transformation and they are in great contrast to the resurrected Jesus before His ascension. Yes, Christ is that Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17) that baptizes us into the body (1 Cor. 12:13). How this occurs is revealed to us by Jesus in the book of John.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
His spoken words in reference to the New Testament (Matt. 26:28)(John 6:54) released man from his flesh and created the way for us to step into the Spiritual realm of eternity. Christ Jesus is explaining these words are “spirit” and that they had the power to “quickeneth” (Titus 3:5) thus granting eternal life. Here we have two of the “Spiritual elements” that are required to step into eternity. The Spirit (ascended Christ) and the Word (words spoken by Christ before ascension) and yet there is a third who is the Father of lights (James 1:17-18). In the name of the Father, the Word (Son), and the Holy Ghost the record is witnessed from heaven to man that Christ shed forth blood and water (John 19:34) to cleanse and sanctify believers.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7 (KJV)
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 1 John 5:8 (KJV)
While we look not at the things which are seen (earthly elements), but at the things which are not seen (Spiritual elements): for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Cor. 4:18 (KJV)
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17 (KJV)
And ALL THINGS ARE OF GOD, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 2 Cor. 5:18 (KJV)
The contrast of the earthly things and the heavenly things are revealed to us in the words spoken to Nicodemus concerning the need to be born again by the Spirit as Christ tells him he has not received “our witness” (1 John 5:7).
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. John 3:11 (KJV)
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? John 3:12 (KJV)
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph. 5:26 (KJV)
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph. 5:27 (KJV)
The “pure” water (Heb. 10:22) is the word of God that now washes us by the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 6:11) was purchased with the blood of Christ (Heb. 10:19) and it has become the “new” and living way (Heb. 10:20). It is the blood that cleanses (1 John 1:7) and the blood that sanctifies (Heb. 12:13) and the blood that washes us white (Rev. 7:14) without spot (1 Pet. 1:19).
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)
(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Phil. 3:18 (KJV)
Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) Phil. 3:19 (KJV)
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Phil. 3:20 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
Behold all things are become new and all things are of God!!
In the beginning the earth was created by the Word of God. The very breath or Spirit of God moved and the visible realm of our existence was created (Gen. 1:2). We are bound to this earthly realm by the flesh and it appears we must die of the flesh to enter the Spiritual realm (Roms. 8:8-10). We know that Christ created the world (Col. 1:16) therefore we can know that Christ is the Spirit of God (2 Cor. 3:17). John tells us that the Word is the light of men (John 1:4) and Christ Jesus is that light (Luke 2:32). The Spirit that brought light to the darkness on the face of the deep (Genesis 1:2-3) is the same light that “shineth” in the darkness of the heart of man (John 1:5). Christ in the beginning was Spirit and He was made flesh (John 1:14) to enter into the earthly realm of man to deliver a eternal redemptive message of His death (John 6:54). The natural man cannot receive this offer of eternal life (2 Cor. 2:14) because it is spiritually discerned. When Christ Jesus ascended back to the Father He regained the form He had from the beginning (Col. 1:15) as the Light (John 1:7) that “shineth in darkness”. His appearance to Saul on Damascus road (Acts 9:3-7) testifies to this truth. Saul fell to the ground immersed in the light as John did (Rev. 1:17) at the appearance of the great Light and today that Light shines in or immerses the hearts of men (Eph. 3:16-21). These appearances clearly reveal His transformation and they are in great contrast to the resurrected Jesus before His ascension. Yes, Christ is that Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17) that baptizes us into the body (1 Cor. 12:13). How this occurs is revealed to us by Jesus in the book of John.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
His spoken words in reference to the New Testament (Matt. 26:28)(John 6:54) released man from his flesh and created the way for us to step into the Spiritual realm of eternity. Christ Jesus is explaining these words are “spirit” and that they had the power to “quickeneth” (Titus 3:5) thus granting eternal life. Here we have two of the “Spiritual elements” that are required to step into eternity. The Spirit (ascended Christ) and the Word (words spoken by Christ before ascension) and yet there is a third who is the Father of lights (James 1:17-18). In the name of the Father, the Word (Son), and the Holy Ghost the record is witnessed from heaven to man that Christ shed forth blood and water (John 19:34) to cleanse and sanctify believers.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7 (KJV)
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 1 John 5:8 (KJV)
While we look not at the things which are seen (earthly elements), but at the things which are not seen (Spiritual elements): for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Cor. 4:18 (KJV)
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17 (KJV)
And ALL THINGS ARE OF GOD, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 2 Cor. 5:18 (KJV)
The contrast of the earthly things and the heavenly things are revealed to us in the words spoken to Nicodemus concerning the need to be born again by the Spirit as Christ tells him he has not received “our witness” (1 John 5:7).
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. John 3:11 (KJV)
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? John 3:12 (KJV)
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph. 5:26 (KJV)
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph. 5:27 (KJV)
The “pure” water (Heb. 10:22) is the word of God that now washes us by the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 6:11) was purchased with the blood of Christ (Heb. 10:19) and it has become the “new” and living way (Heb. 10:20). It is the blood that cleanses (1 John 1:7) and the blood that sanctifies (Heb. 12:13) and the blood that washes us white (Rev. 7:14) without spot (1 Pet. 1:19).
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)
(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Phil. 3:18 (KJV)
Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) Phil. 3:19 (KJV)
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Phil. 3:20 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
A new creature IN Christ...
A new creature IN Christ...
Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17 ASV
In Christ ?? Why be in Christ? Why establish this relationship?
Because IN Christ we are…
ONE body – Romans 12:5
Sanctified – 1 Corinthians 1:2
A new creature - 2 Corinthians 5:17
Because IN Christ we have…
Redemption – Romans 3:24
No Condemnation – Romans 8:1
The love of God – Romans 8:39
Liberty – Galatians 2:4
Salvation – 2 Timothy 2:10
ALL spiritual blessings – Ephesians 1:3
*** HOW then does one get INTO Christ *** ???
Galatains 3:27 - For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Romans 6:3 - Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Baptism is our death to sin (the old things are passed away), our burial in water, and our resurrection (as a new creature) to walk in newness of life.
Colossians 1:28 - [Christ] we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus…”
A new creature IN Christ...
Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17 ASV
In Christ ?? Why be in Christ? Why establish this relationship?
Because IN Christ we are…
ONE body – Romans 12:5
Sanctified – 1 Corinthians 1:2
A new creature - 2 Corinthians 5:17
Because IN Christ we have…
Redemption – Romans 3:24
No Condemnation – Romans 8:1
The love of God – Romans 8:39
Liberty – Galatians 2:4
Salvation – 2 Timothy 2:10
ALL spiritual blessings – Ephesians 1:3
*** HOW then does one get INTO Christ *** ???
Galatains 3:27 - For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Romans 6:3 - Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Baptism is our death to sin (the old things are passed away), our burial in water, and our resurrection (as a new creature) to walk in newness of life.
Colossians 1:28 - [Christ] we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus…”
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David J. Conkli
New member
>One attains eternal life (Salvation) thru simple belief in the person of Jesus. We see this in the words of Jesus when He said: "Everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life" (John 3:15).
This assumes that this verse says everything all at once for all time, etc.
Instead of trying to build a doctrine on one text please see the following passages: Acts 2:38, 9:36, 10:47.
This assumes that this verse says everything all at once for all time, etc.
Instead of trying to build a doctrine on one text please see the following passages: Acts 2:38, 9:36, 10:47.