The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
Kevin
New member
Hope,
There is no contradiction. The only reason you see a contradiction is because you are completely taking what Paul said in 1 Cor. 1:17 out of context.
You keep asking everybody why Paul said what he did if water baptism is necessary. The answer to this question can easily be found if you look at the context of the situation.
When Paul said "I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius", he said that because he didn't want more people running around saying 'I am of Paul' (verse 12), WHICH WOULD ADD TO THE PROBLEM OF THAT CHRUCH BEING DIVIDED. (verses 10-11) Just what do you think verses 10-17 are talking about? There were divisions in that church because of who baptized them. Because of those divisions, Paul was glad that he didn't baptize more people than he did because that would have only made the problem bigger than it already was.
There is nothing mentioned in there that Paul recieved some kind of progressive revelation from Christ saying that it was no longer necessary to baptize with water. Nothing. The burden of proof is on YOU to show this. I have shown evidence of why Paul said what he did: because of divisions in the church, and he didn't want the problem to be bigger than it already was. Now, it's your turn to show me in the context of thoses passages where Christ spoke to Paul and told him to no longer water baptize!
I wouldn't try to separate the two, but at the same time, I certainly wouldn't write it that way, either. It doesn't make sense to list a qualification that a person doesn't have control over. Mark 16:16 lists two qualifications that need to be done to be saved. There wouldn't be any need to mention both if one is done automatically. There's no logic to that at all.
There IS logic to it looking at it from the perspective that they are two separate conditions that must be met by MAN. Christ commanded MAN to baptize. Therefore, it is up to MAN to believe and MAN to baptize.
The great commission says that people were to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Can you show me a scripture where this happened?
The only time I read about a baptism in the name of somebody is when people are baptized in the name of the Lord. This is done with water (Acts 10:47). The evidence is on MY side. I can show multiple places where people are baptized in the name of Jesus. It is up to YOU to prove there is another baptism in the name of something else.
See my previous paragraph for evidence of Jesus commanding a water baptism. As for the difference between the two baptisms, John's baptism was done to prepare the way for the baptism that would actually forgive sins, the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. The baptism John the baptist preached about was the baptism in the name of the Lord. The reason he was preparing the way is because that baptism hadn't been institued yet. It was done so in the Great Commission and carried out in Acts 2:38 as well as other numerous places.
John's baptism didn't actually forgive sins. If you claim it did, then why did Christ come and die if there was salvation before Him dying on the cross?
The truth is that I can't show who actually baptized those people. I can't. However, at the same time, you cant show me any evidence to support your "they didn't recieve the full message of John" theory. I can just as easily say they did recieve the full message of John.
Something to note, even if those people weren't taught the full message of John (which I don't believe to be the case), why weren't they rebaptized into John's baptism again after being tuaght by Paul? If the baptism of John and the baptism in the name of the Lord were the same, one wouldn't be present. Nowhere can it be found in scriputure that anybody who baptized people into John's baptism baptized them in the name of the Lord. They are two differnt baptisms, which is why they were rebatpized.
I don't need to prove this, YOU do. I have shown evidence of people in the Bible being baptized in the name of Jesus, and everyone of those instances happened AFTER Jesus died on the Christ for our sins, thus making the ministry of John VOID. People who were baptizing people with John's baptism after the cross were either rebaptized (Acts 19:5) or they were pulled aside and taught more accurately (Acts 18:26), because John's ministry and his baptism had been made VOID by the sacrifice of Christ!
When did I say that people didn't believe God when He announced that Jesus was His Son? I'm quite sure there was little or no doubt in the minds of the people upon this announcement.
Paul's message to them was to believe on Jesus Christ and they will be saved. Part of believing is believing and obeying the commandments of Him who saves you. Christ commanded people to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The only times in the N.T. where I see people being baptized in the name of anybody are when people are baptized in the name of the Lord, which IS done with water (Acts 10:47).
And your evidence for this is where? Can you tell me with a clear conscience that the Holy Spirit would guide Peter into something that was a temporary? That just doesn't make sense.
There is no contradiction. The only reason you see a contradiction is because you are completely taking what Paul said in 1 Cor. 1:17 out of context.
You keep asking everybody why Paul said what he did if water baptism is necessary. The answer to this question can easily be found if you look at the context of the situation.
When Paul said "I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius", he said that because he didn't want more people running around saying 'I am of Paul' (verse 12), WHICH WOULD ADD TO THE PROBLEM OF THAT CHRUCH BEING DIVIDED. (verses 10-11) Just what do you think verses 10-17 are talking about? There were divisions in that church because of who baptized them. Because of those divisions, Paul was glad that he didn't baptize more people than he did because that would have only made the problem bigger than it already was.
There is nothing mentioned in there that Paul recieved some kind of progressive revelation from Christ saying that it was no longer necessary to baptize with water. Nothing. The burden of proof is on YOU to show this. I have shown evidence of why Paul said what he did: because of divisions in the church, and he didn't want the problem to be bigger than it already was. Now, it's your turn to show me in the context of thoses passages where Christ spoke to Paul and told him to no longer water baptize!
I wouldn't try to separate the two, but at the same time, I certainly wouldn't write it that way, either. It doesn't make sense to list a qualification that a person doesn't have control over. Mark 16:16 lists two qualifications that need to be done to be saved. There wouldn't be any need to mention both if one is done automatically. There's no logic to that at all.
There IS logic to it looking at it from the perspective that they are two separate conditions that must be met by MAN. Christ commanded MAN to baptize. Therefore, it is up to MAN to believe and MAN to baptize.
The great commission says that people were to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Can you show me a scripture where this happened?
The only time I read about a baptism in the name of somebody is when people are baptized in the name of the Lord. This is done with water (Acts 10:47). The evidence is on MY side. I can show multiple places where people are baptized in the name of Jesus. It is up to YOU to prove there is another baptism in the name of something else.
See my previous paragraph for evidence of Jesus commanding a water baptism. As for the difference between the two baptisms, John's baptism was done to prepare the way for the baptism that would actually forgive sins, the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. The baptism John the baptist preached about was the baptism in the name of the Lord. The reason he was preparing the way is because that baptism hadn't been institued yet. It was done so in the Great Commission and carried out in Acts 2:38 as well as other numerous places.
John's baptism didn't actually forgive sins. If you claim it did, then why did Christ come and die if there was salvation before Him dying on the cross?
The truth is that I can't show who actually baptized those people. I can't. However, at the same time, you cant show me any evidence to support your "they didn't recieve the full message of John" theory. I can just as easily say they did recieve the full message of John.
Something to note, even if those people weren't taught the full message of John (which I don't believe to be the case), why weren't they rebaptized into John's baptism again after being tuaght by Paul? If the baptism of John and the baptism in the name of the Lord were the same, one wouldn't be present. Nowhere can it be found in scriputure that anybody who baptized people into John's baptism baptized them in the name of the Lord. They are two differnt baptisms, which is why they were rebatpized.
I don't need to prove this, YOU do. I have shown evidence of people in the Bible being baptized in the name of Jesus, and everyone of those instances happened AFTER Jesus died on the Christ for our sins, thus making the ministry of John VOID. People who were baptizing people with John's baptism after the cross were either rebaptized (Acts 19:5) or they were pulled aside and taught more accurately (Acts 18:26), because John's ministry and his baptism had been made VOID by the sacrifice of Christ!
When did I say that people didn't believe God when He announced that Jesus was His Son? I'm quite sure there was little or no doubt in the minds of the people upon this announcement.
Paul's message to them was to believe on Jesus Christ and they will be saved. Part of believing is believing and obeying the commandments of Him who saves you. Christ commanded people to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The only times in the N.T. where I see people being baptized in the name of anybody are when people are baptized in the name of the Lord, which IS done with water (Acts 10:47).
And your evidence for this is where? Can you tell me with a clear conscience that the Holy Spirit would guide Peter into something that was a temporary? That just doesn't make sense.
Last edited:
Kevin
New member
Freak,
Care to provide scriptual proof of this?
Romans 6 is quite clear about what baptism is, and what it does for us. Baptism is the act of obedience that is chosen by God for us to put away our bodies of sin, thus being freed from sin.
Look carefully at Romans 6:7. It reads:
7) For he who has died HAS been freed from sin.
When we die with Christ, which is through baptism (verse 3), we have been freed from sin. There's nothing symbolic about it. Paul clearly makes the qualification about who is freed from sin: It is those who die with Christ through baptism. If one hasn't been baptized, then they have not died with Christ, and therefore are not free from sin. People who are alive in sin won't make it to heaven.
Think about it.
Care to provide scriptual proof of this?
Romans 6 is quite clear about what baptism is, and what it does for us. Baptism is the act of obedience that is chosen by God for us to put away our bodies of sin, thus being freed from sin.
Look carefully at Romans 6:7. It reads:
7) For he who has died HAS been freed from sin.
When we die with Christ, which is through baptism (verse 3), we have been freed from sin. There's nothing symbolic about it. Paul clearly makes the qualification about who is freed from sin: It is those who die with Christ through baptism. If one hasn't been baptized, then they have not died with Christ, and therefore are not free from sin. People who are alive in sin won't make it to heaven.
Think about it.
c.moore
New member
Quote c.moore
I tryed telling people this also it a symbol, but they are still blinded.
Hey freak you did a good job starting the thread but so many people are not spiritual led, and they are told a different doctrine than what we learn in our churches, and sunday schools and bible schools. I`m glad that you have the time to debate with these brainwashed people. I am giving up because I`ve been advised too and the it makes no since to try to help people who don`t want to be renewed in thier minds Freak.
Ro:12:2: And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Ro:12:3: For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Ro:12:4: For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
Ro:12:5: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Ro:12:6: Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Ro:12:7: Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Ro:12:8: Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
Ro:12:9: Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
I found and know to many unsaved pepole are hungry for the truth so I will spend my time feeding those who are hungry for the anointing with signs and power, and want to use thire sword correctly.
Freak; you will always have people believing 1+1=3 and they can explain it is true biblical like the devil use the bible scripture from psalms 91 so that Jesus would be decieved and jump from the temple, but Jesus is the Word and HE knows the deeper meaning of the Word like we do because of the Holy Spirit in us,and being fill with the anointing.
1Jo:2:26: These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jo:2:27: But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
I seen Freak that most of the people have something against anointed teachers, evangelists ,tv ministrys,big churches that are growing daily because the members are in one accord.
Ac:2:46: And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Ac:2:47: Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
You can notice that carnal believers don`t believe in the miracle powers ,and signs and wounder of the Lord, specially when you mention about what Jesus said we as His disciple can raised the dead cast out devil, open blind eyes and new limbs grow etc.
´Most have alot of talks and Idea`s but no power behind it.
Thank God Jesus moved with signs following after faith put to work.
This scripture was given to me from ´my spiritual father you got to know at the christian disco that invited you to stay by him next time you come to Germany freak to preach by us.
This was the Word that help me to stop debating and stop TOL
1Tm:1:4: Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
What I personally don`t like about some TOL people is the misleading,and false doctrines that can hurt others in their growth.
It like believing a stop light is really green and means go and every time you come to a red light you go through it because a person believes the red light means green, and they danger other lives as well as their own, what a shame being blinded to the truth that can set a person free.
Sooner or latter every one will see the truth even if it`s to late.
Stay under your anointing Freak casting out devil and setting people free from demonic religious spirit they need it here on TOL.
Your doing a wounderful work spreading the truth even if some don`t agree and judge you.:up:
Jesus was judge and attacked like you have been attacked, so keep feeling like Jesus, greater is He that is in you than that of this world Evangelist Freak.
God Bless you and your wife.
ps: you know how to e-mail me.
Keep watching how the blind lead the blind
.
Last edited:
JustAChristian
New member
Craig,
The big touble with you and you associates, is that you want accept logical conclusions. Jesus told the apostles that the Holy Spirit would bring to their remembrance whatever he had taugh them. Jesus told the apostles to command water baptism (Matthew 28:18-20). This is implied by the fact that all tha apostles taught water baptism, for they all taught the same thing. If you would try to understand this , you'd only come to the same conclusion.
Did Jesus in fact, tell Paul not to baptize. Well, if he did, Paul disobeyed the Lord. Paul names several that he had baptized. Had he done this in spite of the Lord's command? I don't believe you even belive that! I presented the statement to you that the veres in question is eliptical. Do you know what an elipsis is? Well, go study on it. Paul is saying "Christ send me not the baptize (only) but to preach (also). The context tells us plainly that the Corinthian church was more interested in the person that baptized them than the act itself. This was wrong. It is the baptism that is important and not the person baptizing.. Work on that. As for your "New" baptism, this is just a man made doctrine that want get anyone anyplace but Hell. There is one baptism for man to obey and that is the baptism that places on into Christ, the fold of safety (Galatians 3:26-27).
JustAChristian
JustAChristian
New member
JustAChristian
New member
What Do You Should Really Know About Water Baptism.
What Do You Should Really Know About Water Baptism.
Freak,
What do you know about water baptism? What we really know is that water baptism is essential for salvation. I hope you will give close attention to this psot.
We see water baptism first mentioned in the work of John the Baptist. He was sent by God to manifest Jesus to Israel. The Bible says, “And I knew Him not, but that He should be made manifest to Israel, therefore I come baptizing with water” (Jn 1:31). We see that John’s baptism was for the remission of sins (Mk 1:4; Lk 3:3). One might observe, “Why was Jesus baptized since he had no sins?” Jesus answers that question saying”…for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness” (Mt. 3:15). It was the right thing at that time for Jesus to do, and thus he allowed John to baptize him.
What do we need to know about baptism and remission of sins? Baptism has always been for the remission of sins or as Ananias told Saul “…Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the Lord” (Acts 22:16). It is in order to be saved (Mk 16:16). If you believe you are saved before you are baptized, then you believe you can be saved outside of Christ Galatians 3:27 teaches we are baptized into Christ. We know it is impossible to be saved outside of Christ. If you believe your are saved before baptism, then you believe you can be saved in our sins. As was mentioned before, baptism is the medium whereby sins are washed away. It is not the water that is saving, but baptism. It is in baptism that one contacts the blood of Christ spiritually (Rom 6:3). Jesus shed his blood for our sins, and we are cleansed by his blood. It is therefore necessary that one contact the cleansing blood of Christ for salvation (Rev 1:5; 1 Jn 5:6).
What do we need to understand about baptism and salvation? Do you know that baptism saves us? 1 Peter 3:20,21 teaches “…baptism doth also now save us.” Anytime baptism is mentioned in connection with being saved, baptism always comes first. Some passages mention only believe, others only repentance or confession, Does this mean we don’t have to repent if the scripture only mentions believe? Of course not! The mention of only baptism doesn’t exclude confession, repentance or believing. Scripture takes a person from where he is in his heart at that moment. A person who has not heard of Christ would first have to hear, or be taught, then believe what he was taught. After belief, he would have to repent of his sins and make the same confession the Eunuch made after believing: that “Jesus Christ is the Son of God” (Acts 8:37). Only then is he a fit subject to be baptized in order to be saved.
If you take the stand that we are saved as soon as we believe then you have to throw away the scriptures on repentance, confession, and baptism. James teaches we are not justified by faith only, “Even the devil believes and trembles” (James 2:17-20). Does this mean the Devil is saved? Of course not.
In the New Testament, every time a person sought to be saved he never took nourishment nor slept until he was baptized (Acts 16:33). They knew how important baptism was to their salvation. They knew it took baptism to complete their obedience to God’s plan for redemption. The faith that saves is the faith that obeys.
The Eunuch was not saved before he was baptized (Acts 8:26-39) When seeing a body of water, he inquired as to what hindered his baptism. On learning he must confess Christ, he did so and both he and Philip the evangelist went into the water and he was baptized. He then went on his way rejoicing, because after his baptism, he had something to rejoice about. Can you rejoice today? You have the know-withall to rejoice. The question is will you accept it?
JustAChristian
What Do You Should Really Know About Water Baptism.
Freak,
What do you know about water baptism? What we really know is that water baptism is essential for salvation. I hope you will give close attention to this psot.
We see water baptism first mentioned in the work of John the Baptist. He was sent by God to manifest Jesus to Israel. The Bible says, “And I knew Him not, but that He should be made manifest to Israel, therefore I come baptizing with water” (Jn 1:31). We see that John’s baptism was for the remission of sins (Mk 1:4; Lk 3:3). One might observe, “Why was Jesus baptized since he had no sins?” Jesus answers that question saying”…for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness” (Mt. 3:15). It was the right thing at that time for Jesus to do, and thus he allowed John to baptize him.
What do we need to know about baptism and remission of sins? Baptism has always been for the remission of sins or as Ananias told Saul “…Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the Lord” (Acts 22:16). It is in order to be saved (Mk 16:16). If you believe you are saved before you are baptized, then you believe you can be saved outside of Christ Galatians 3:27 teaches we are baptized into Christ. We know it is impossible to be saved outside of Christ. If you believe your are saved before baptism, then you believe you can be saved in our sins. As was mentioned before, baptism is the medium whereby sins are washed away. It is not the water that is saving, but baptism. It is in baptism that one contacts the blood of Christ spiritually (Rom 6:3). Jesus shed his blood for our sins, and we are cleansed by his blood. It is therefore necessary that one contact the cleansing blood of Christ for salvation (Rev 1:5; 1 Jn 5:6).
What do we need to understand about baptism and salvation? Do you know that baptism saves us? 1 Peter 3:20,21 teaches “…baptism doth also now save us.” Anytime baptism is mentioned in connection with being saved, baptism always comes first. Some passages mention only believe, others only repentance or confession, Does this mean we don’t have to repent if the scripture only mentions believe? Of course not! The mention of only baptism doesn’t exclude confession, repentance or believing. Scripture takes a person from where he is in his heart at that moment. A person who has not heard of Christ would first have to hear, or be taught, then believe what he was taught. After belief, he would have to repent of his sins and make the same confession the Eunuch made after believing: that “Jesus Christ is the Son of God” (Acts 8:37). Only then is he a fit subject to be baptized in order to be saved.
If you take the stand that we are saved as soon as we believe then you have to throw away the scriptures on repentance, confession, and baptism. James teaches we are not justified by faith only, “Even the devil believes and trembles” (James 2:17-20). Does this mean the Devil is saved? Of course not.
In the New Testament, every time a person sought to be saved he never took nourishment nor slept until he was baptized (Acts 16:33). They knew how important baptism was to their salvation. They knew it took baptism to complete their obedience to God’s plan for redemption. The faith that saves is the faith that obeys.
The Eunuch was not saved before he was baptized (Acts 8:26-39) When seeing a body of water, he inquired as to what hindered his baptism. On learning he must confess Christ, he did so and both he and Philip the evangelist went into the water and he was baptized. He then went on his way rejoicing, because after his baptism, he had something to rejoice about. Can you rejoice today? You have the know-withall to rejoice. The question is will you accept it?
JustAChristian
HopeofGlory
New member
PETER’S CONVERSION
====================
"All" scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Tim 3:16)! Peter was declaring this truth given to him by Paul in (2 Pet. 3:16). We also know Jesus stated that Peter would be converted at a later date (Luke 22:32). This statement of Jesus was made right after He offered the "new testament in His blood" (John 6:53-56) of which the apostles replied "who can hear (believe) it" (John 6:60). To say that Peter understood that Christ would die for His sins is to deny clear scripture to the contrary. When Jesus began teaching Peter of His death Peter spoke against it and Jesus replied...Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be "of men"( Matt. 16:23).
We know Peter did not understand the clear teachings of Jesus...how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day( Matt. 16:21) because after His resurrection...he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen (Mark 16:14). Peter's conversion continued after Pentecost for he was instructed...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15) but Peter had this to say concerning Cornelius....Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation ( Acts 10:28).....That is in direct opposition to the great commission. At the Jerusalem council Paul confronts Peter... I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed (Gal. 2:11). Peter admits the things he did not understand but were revealed to Paul....As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16).
Paul confronted Peter in Gal. 2 and instructed the apostles in the Gospel of Christ:
But when I saw that they (apostles) walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? Gal. 2:14 (KJV)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal. 2:16 (KJV)
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. Gal. 2:17 (KJV)
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. Gal. 2:18 (KJV)
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. Gal. 2:19 (KJV)
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Gal. 2:20 (KJV)
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Gal. 2:21 (KJV)
The apostles were slow to learn and were in error concerning the death of Christ (Matt. 16:23), the new testament (John 6:60),the resurrection of Christ (Mark 16:14), the great commission (Acts 10:28), eating with Gentiles , circumcision, the law of works (Gal. 2), and such errors are NOT taught by the Holy Spirit. Therefore we can know Peter did not understand “all things” at Pentecost yet the Holy Spirit would bring them to his remembrance at a later date. What we learn from this is the doctrines of men are not God’s but the truth would be revealed by progressive revelation of which was fulfilled with the teachings of Paul.
We should not be concerned in the offence of men for we cannot please man if the cost is offence to the cross of Christ.
After Peter’s conversion through Paul’s teachings he affirms:
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 1 Pet. 1:2 (KJV)
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 Pet. 1:16 (KJV)
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 1 Pet. 1:17 (KJV)
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 1 Pet. 1:18 (KJV)
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Pet. 1:19 (KJV)
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Pet. 1:20 (KJV)
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Pet. 1:21 (KJV)
At the end of his life, Peter admits he was wrong and gives credit where credit is due.
This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 Pet. 3:1 (KJV)
That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 2 Pet. 3:2 (KJV)
Paul was included in these words of Peter as a holy prophet and has this to say about Paul's teachings which have become the new message to the world.
As also in all his epistles (Paul‘s), speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Pet. 3:16 (KJV)
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 2 Pet. 3:17 (KJV)
Peter credited Paul as the one who delivered the things that were "hard to be understood" and had this to say about those who would not accept Paul’s teachings.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Pet. 3:8 (KJV)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pet. 3:9 (KJV)
Peter includes himself in this statement and how realizes the promise was not received at Pentecost and warns the listeners to not be ignorant of it. This clearly was hard for them to understand for the Pentecostal experience was a Jewish nation expecting to receive the promise of the kingdom and the things pertaining to it.
Paul was the first to reveal the "new" testament in the blood of Christ for remission of sins and it is clear and to the point for all who have ears to hear.
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins (not water baptism) that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25 (KJV)
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26 (KJV)
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Rom. 3:27 (KJV)
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom. 3:28 (KJV)
Here Peter, after his conversion, backs up the truth of Paul’s words:
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Pet. 3:21 (KJV)
The baptism that "saves" is an operation of God not man and Peter gives that meaning further clarity when he says "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" i.e. water baptism but (note the contrast) "the answer of a good conscience" i.e. faith.
We must remove this works option of water baptism for remission (Acts 2:38)and leave only the finished work of Christ (Matt. 26:28) for remission of sins. I do not believe in clear cut dispensations but believe in progressive revelation in respect to what the listeners believed and what their actions and words testify as compared to the new testament. It cannot be said that every word the apostles spoke at Pentecost was Spirit inspired truth concerning a new message but it can be said that every word of Christ is the gospel.
In Christ
Craig
====================
"All" scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Tim 3:16)! Peter was declaring this truth given to him by Paul in (2 Pet. 3:16). We also know Jesus stated that Peter would be converted at a later date (Luke 22:32). This statement of Jesus was made right after He offered the "new testament in His blood" (John 6:53-56) of which the apostles replied "who can hear (believe) it" (John 6:60). To say that Peter understood that Christ would die for His sins is to deny clear scripture to the contrary. When Jesus began teaching Peter of His death Peter spoke against it and Jesus replied...Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be "of men"( Matt. 16:23).
We know Peter did not understand the clear teachings of Jesus...how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day( Matt. 16:21) because after His resurrection...he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen (Mark 16:14). Peter's conversion continued after Pentecost for he was instructed...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15) but Peter had this to say concerning Cornelius....Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation ( Acts 10:28).....That is in direct opposition to the great commission. At the Jerusalem council Paul confronts Peter... I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed (Gal. 2:11). Peter admits the things he did not understand but were revealed to Paul....As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16).
Paul confronted Peter in Gal. 2 and instructed the apostles in the Gospel of Christ:
But when I saw that they (apostles) walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? Gal. 2:14 (KJV)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal. 2:16 (KJV)
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. Gal. 2:17 (KJV)
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. Gal. 2:18 (KJV)
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. Gal. 2:19 (KJV)
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Gal. 2:20 (KJV)
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Gal. 2:21 (KJV)
The apostles were slow to learn and were in error concerning the death of Christ (Matt. 16:23), the new testament (John 6:60),the resurrection of Christ (Mark 16:14), the great commission (Acts 10:28), eating with Gentiles , circumcision, the law of works (Gal. 2), and such errors are NOT taught by the Holy Spirit. Therefore we can know Peter did not understand “all things” at Pentecost yet the Holy Spirit would bring them to his remembrance at a later date. What we learn from this is the doctrines of men are not God’s but the truth would be revealed by progressive revelation of which was fulfilled with the teachings of Paul.
We should not be concerned in the offence of men for we cannot please man if the cost is offence to the cross of Christ.
After Peter’s conversion through Paul’s teachings he affirms:
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 1 Pet. 1:2 (KJV)
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 Pet. 1:16 (KJV)
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 1 Pet. 1:17 (KJV)
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 1 Pet. 1:18 (KJV)
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Pet. 1:19 (KJV)
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Pet. 1:20 (KJV)
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Pet. 1:21 (KJV)
At the end of his life, Peter admits he was wrong and gives credit where credit is due.
This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 Pet. 3:1 (KJV)
That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 2 Pet. 3:2 (KJV)
Paul was included in these words of Peter as a holy prophet and has this to say about Paul's teachings which have become the new message to the world.
As also in all his epistles (Paul‘s), speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Pet. 3:16 (KJV)
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 2 Pet. 3:17 (KJV)
Peter credited Paul as the one who delivered the things that were "hard to be understood" and had this to say about those who would not accept Paul’s teachings.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Pet. 3:8 (KJV)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pet. 3:9 (KJV)
Peter includes himself in this statement and how realizes the promise was not received at Pentecost and warns the listeners to not be ignorant of it. This clearly was hard for them to understand for the Pentecostal experience was a Jewish nation expecting to receive the promise of the kingdom and the things pertaining to it.
Paul was the first to reveal the "new" testament in the blood of Christ for remission of sins and it is clear and to the point for all who have ears to hear.
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins (not water baptism) that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25 (KJV)
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26 (KJV)
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Rom. 3:27 (KJV)
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom. 3:28 (KJV)
Here Peter, after his conversion, backs up the truth of Paul’s words:
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Pet. 3:21 (KJV)
The baptism that "saves" is an operation of God not man and Peter gives that meaning further clarity when he says "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" i.e. water baptism but (note the contrast) "the answer of a good conscience" i.e. faith.
We must remove this works option of water baptism for remission (Acts 2:38)and leave only the finished work of Christ (Matt. 26:28) for remission of sins. I do not believe in clear cut dispensations but believe in progressive revelation in respect to what the listeners believed and what their actions and words testify as compared to the new testament. It cannot be said that every word the apostles spoke at Pentecost was Spirit inspired truth concerning a new message but it can be said that every word of Christ is the gospel.
In Christ
Craig
HopeofGlory
New member
JustAChristian
You said ..."John's baptism was for the remission of sins" and " As for your "New" baptism, this is just a man made doctrine that want get anyone anyplace but Hell".
Do you then disagree with Apollos and Kevin when they say that those under John's ministry did not receive remission at that time. The "new" baptism I referred to is a "new water" baptism or are you referring to Spirit baptism?
In Christ
Craig
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph. 5:26 (KJV)
You said ..."John's baptism was for the remission of sins" and " As for your "New" baptism, this is just a man made doctrine that want get anyone anyplace but Hell".
Do you then disagree with Apollos and Kevin when they say that those under John's ministry did not receive remission at that time. The "new" baptism I referred to is a "new water" baptism or are you referring to Spirit baptism?
In Christ
Craig
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph. 5:26 (KJV)
JustAChristian
New member
The Bible Still Says..........
The Bible Still Says..........
Craig,
After all you have said, the Bible still says...
"...he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16)
"....baptism doth also now save us..." (1 Peter 3:21).
And if one is saved without being immersed (baptized)..
a. He can be saved without obeying Christ (Mark 16:16).
b. He can be saved without entering the Kingdom (John 3:5).
c. He can be saved without remission of sins (Acts 2:38).
d. He can be saved without the blotting out of sins ( Acts 3:19).
e. He can be saved without the washing away of his sins (Acts 22:16).
f. He can be saved without entering Jesus Christ (Romans 6:3).
g. He can be saved without the death and blood of christ (Romans 6:3).
h. He can be saved without the resurrection of Christ (Romans 6:4).
i. He can be saved without walking in newness of life (Romans 6:4).
j. He can be saved without being redeemed (Eph. 1:7).
k. He can be saved without being in Christ, without being a child of God, and without putting on Christ (Galatians 3:26-27; Eph. 1:3).
May you recognize that these verses were not written by men! They have been denied by men for ages! They have been misapplied for ages! Why not take what the Bible says and act upon it accordingly?
We are not applicable to the baptism of the Holy Spirit today. This was for the 1st Century Christians in the infancy of the church
"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" ( Ephesians 4:13).
Christianity is a "growing up" religion. When the church became full grown with the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and confirmation of the word of God with signs and miracles, then the work of the Holy Spirit in guiding into all truth ceased. Today, we have all truth and it is confirmed (John 17:17; Heb 2:3). There is no "new revelation" or "progressive revelation". There is ...one faith....once delievered (for all time, jac) to the saints. (Eph 4:5 and Jude 3).
"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." ( 1 Peter 1:22-23).
From this, we learn that the soul is purified by obeying the truth through the Spirit. The truth is the word or God. The new spiritual birth comes by the word (Luke 8:11). The word of God is effectual and strong to save all in all generations. (Romans 1:16). The Holy Spirit can not save, for this is not His mission. he works as the agent of God in the work of God's salvation. (1 Cor. 12:13; Eph 2:18-24). He was to teach the apostles all things and bring to remembrance all things that Jesus said.(John14:26). If the Holy Spirit did anything not designated by God, He was in violation of the law of God. The Holy Spirit gave his service in helping to present the inspired word, but today, God has given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness through the knowledge of him that called us (2 Peter 1:3). The Holy Spirit does not continue to inspire men to write and work, for the word of God works today to convert sinners. The same revelation was made unto Paul and the other inspired men, and they wrote it so that those who red might understand the purpose and plans of Almighty God ( Eph. 3:1-7).
JustAChristian
The Bible Still Says..........
Craig,
After all you have said, the Bible still says...
"...he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16)
"....baptism doth also now save us..." (1 Peter 3:21).
And if one is saved without being immersed (baptized)..
a. He can be saved without obeying Christ (Mark 16:16).
b. He can be saved without entering the Kingdom (John 3:5).
c. He can be saved without remission of sins (Acts 2:38).
d. He can be saved without the blotting out of sins ( Acts 3:19).
e. He can be saved without the washing away of his sins (Acts 22:16).
f. He can be saved without entering Jesus Christ (Romans 6:3).
g. He can be saved without the death and blood of christ (Romans 6:3).
h. He can be saved without the resurrection of Christ (Romans 6:4).
i. He can be saved without walking in newness of life (Romans 6:4).
j. He can be saved without being redeemed (Eph. 1:7).
k. He can be saved without being in Christ, without being a child of God, and without putting on Christ (Galatians 3:26-27; Eph. 1:3).
May you recognize that these verses were not written by men! They have been denied by men for ages! They have been misapplied for ages! Why not take what the Bible says and act upon it accordingly?
We are not applicable to the baptism of the Holy Spirit today. This was for the 1st Century Christians in the infancy of the church
"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" ( Ephesians 4:13).
Christianity is a "growing up" religion. When the church became full grown with the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and confirmation of the word of God with signs and miracles, then the work of the Holy Spirit in guiding into all truth ceased. Today, we have all truth and it is confirmed (John 17:17; Heb 2:3). There is no "new revelation" or "progressive revelation". There is ...one faith....once delievered (for all time, jac) to the saints. (Eph 4:5 and Jude 3).
"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." ( 1 Peter 1:22-23).
From this, we learn that the soul is purified by obeying the truth through the Spirit. The truth is the word or God. The new spiritual birth comes by the word (Luke 8:11). The word of God is effectual and strong to save all in all generations. (Romans 1:16). The Holy Spirit can not save, for this is not His mission. he works as the agent of God in the work of God's salvation. (1 Cor. 12:13; Eph 2:18-24). He was to teach the apostles all things and bring to remembrance all things that Jesus said.(John14:26). If the Holy Spirit did anything not designated by God, He was in violation of the law of God. The Holy Spirit gave his service in helping to present the inspired word, but today, God has given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness through the knowledge of him that called us (2 Peter 1:3). The Holy Spirit does not continue to inspire men to write and work, for the word of God works today to convert sinners. The same revelation was made unto Paul and the other inspired men, and they wrote it so that those who red might understand the purpose and plans of Almighty God ( Eph. 3:1-7).
JustAChristian
Last edited:
JustAChristian
New member
The only water baptism
The only water baptism
God has never intended water baptism to be anything more that the action on the part of the believer to recieve remission of sins, aquiring the new birth, and for entrance into the Kingdom of Christ. If you try to get more or less from it you have a lot of explaining to do.
JustAChristian
The only water baptism
God has never intended water baptism to be anything more that the action on the part of the believer to recieve remission of sins, aquiring the new birth, and for entrance into the Kingdom of Christ. If you try to get more or less from it you have a lot of explaining to do.
JustAChristian
HopeofGlory
New member
JustAChristian
Jesus instructed the apostles in the "new" testament for remission of sins yet they taught the "old" testament of water baptism for remission of sins at Pentecost.
By not understanding the Pentecostal experience was a Jewish message and not to the body of Christ leaves the door open for the wolves to rush in. False doctrines such as baptismal regeneration and tongues as evidence of salvation are among the many which will lead a multitude to hell. Right division leaves no room for such heresy (2 Tim 2:15).
A theology based mainly on the Pauline epistles is one of full revelation of the power of the cross and leaves man with no other avenue for salvation. A theology that points only to the cross and Christ's shed blood for remission of sin and is backed up with scripture has my attention even if it is at the expense of a few apostles.
The most important event in the history of Israel was the new testament for remission of sins. It released God's people from the law which condemned them and the required ordinances for remission of sin.
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col. 2:14 (KJV)
To say that Peter at Pentecost understood this and yet neglected to mention it is impossible for me to believe. The silence of it is deafening!!!!
The new testament (Matt 26:28) is the shed blood of Christ for remission. New meaning that by it all other testaments (Mark 1:4) were superceded and were no longer effectual. The Jews were still under ordinances of remission such as water baptism before the cross. This baptism clearly washed away their sin and was effectual in obedience preparing Israel as priests ready to receive their sacrifice. Under the law it can clearly be seen in OLD testament rituals where the priest were made clean in the rite of baptism. The old is not the new and Peter delivered the old for remission at Pentecost (Acts 2:38). This message was void of the death of Christ for remission. The apostle Paul was chosen to deliver the new testament which was first spoken by Christ...For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
Remission of sin offered by Peter at Pentecost was the same as the Baptist taught before the cross. Again, the ritual of water baptism under the Mosaic law gave remission before shedding the sacrifical blood. This ritual cleansed them of their sin as Ananias a devout man according to the LAW stated.... be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16 (KJV)
Many would rather identify with those who insist on baptism into Christ by the Holy Spirit as the true baptism, and do not practice water baptismal regeneration and label those who insist that water baptism is necessary for salvation as heretics.
It is clear many do not believe one must be water baptized to be saved and they declare it is a sign of what we believe but they do not understand the clear teachings on water baptism being a requirement under the LAW. If they had not obeyed in water baptism at Pentecost they would not have been saved and the gift of the Holy Ghost would not have been received. Water baptism for remission under the LAW was superceded in the new testament by faith in the blood Christ shed for remission of sins which done away with the LAW. LAW is not GRACE ...know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 1 Cor. 5:6 (KJV)
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 1 Cor. 5:7 (KJV)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col. 2:12 (KJV)
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col. 2:13 (KJV)
Note this baptism is the OPERATION OF GOD and it is NOT water baptism. This is clearly a reference to Spiritual baptism through faith when we are quickened together with Him. Doctrine is not developed by adding words to scripture but the context is evidence of its meaning. Many take random scripture references out of context and add water to the mix and say, there I proved it. It simply will not work! The inspired word of God in reference to the "new" testament truth being not understood has caused many to add “water” to various verses but if we say one MUST be water baptized to be saved then it is clearly an offence to the cross.
If we read Romans 5 we can see how we are baptized into his death and the contrast of the old testament of obedience as compared to the new testament of obedience. Those who walk by sight and are still in the flesh say it is by obeying in water baptism but this is not what Paul said.
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom. 5:1 (KJV)
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom. 5:2 (KJV)
Faith is required not obedience to water baptism which is a "work" of the flesh. If a work is required then salvation must be earned. Jesus said “it is finished” and therefore no more “work” is required for salvation. Those who do not have “faith” in His finished work say water baptism is required and are still in their sins.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Rom. 5:9 (KJV)
We are justified by His blood in the new testament and the only way that can be received is by faith. Nothing more need be added unless you do not believe. The old message for remission of sins has been superceded by the greater witness of God (John 5:36) and the new message is faith in His blood for remission of sins not water baptism.
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Rom. 5:15 (KJV)
We can not add to the finished work of Christ and this "gift" must be received "freely" or it is no longer a gift.
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)
The contrast is clearly defined when compared with...And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him (Acts 5:32). It is not "our" obedience but by the obedience of "one" so that the gift may be "free". Some say it is not free and by adding their obedience they deny the word of God and void the free gift.
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:3 (KJV)
Note the contrast! It says baptized "into Jesus" as compared to "into water". How are we to get into Jesus?..."For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body" (1 Cor. 12:13) (KJV)...and it is the "one" baptism (Eph. 4:5) for us today.
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom. 6:4 (KJV)
Here it says "into death" not "water" . In other words when we are baptized by the Spirit we are in His body and we died with Him and it is received through "faith" freely by His obedience not ours.
The "new" testament baptism is "into his death" and should not be confused with the "old" testament baptism that was "into water".
Scripture is the inspired word of God and Paul wrote ....One Lord, one faith, one baptism (Eph. 4:5). There is only one baptism (NOT TWO) for us today and it is Spirit baptism. To disprove these words one must added the word water to various scriptures and God has commanded us not to add to His word.
In Christ
Craig
Jesus instructed the apostles in the "new" testament for remission of sins yet they taught the "old" testament of water baptism for remission of sins at Pentecost.
By not understanding the Pentecostal experience was a Jewish message and not to the body of Christ leaves the door open for the wolves to rush in. False doctrines such as baptismal regeneration and tongues as evidence of salvation are among the many which will lead a multitude to hell. Right division leaves no room for such heresy (2 Tim 2:15).
A theology based mainly on the Pauline epistles is one of full revelation of the power of the cross and leaves man with no other avenue for salvation. A theology that points only to the cross and Christ's shed blood for remission of sin and is backed up with scripture has my attention even if it is at the expense of a few apostles.
The most important event in the history of Israel was the new testament for remission of sins. It released God's people from the law which condemned them and the required ordinances for remission of sin.
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col. 2:14 (KJV)
To say that Peter at Pentecost understood this and yet neglected to mention it is impossible for me to believe. The silence of it is deafening!!!!
The new testament (Matt 26:28) is the shed blood of Christ for remission. New meaning that by it all other testaments (Mark 1:4) were superceded and were no longer effectual. The Jews were still under ordinances of remission such as water baptism before the cross. This baptism clearly washed away their sin and was effectual in obedience preparing Israel as priests ready to receive their sacrifice. Under the law it can clearly be seen in OLD testament rituals where the priest were made clean in the rite of baptism. The old is not the new and Peter delivered the old for remission at Pentecost (Acts 2:38). This message was void of the death of Christ for remission. The apostle Paul was chosen to deliver the new testament which was first spoken by Christ...For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
Remission of sin offered by Peter at Pentecost was the same as the Baptist taught before the cross. Again, the ritual of water baptism under the Mosaic law gave remission before shedding the sacrifical blood. This ritual cleansed them of their sin as Ananias a devout man according to the LAW stated.... be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16 (KJV)
Many would rather identify with those who insist on baptism into Christ by the Holy Spirit as the true baptism, and do not practice water baptismal regeneration and label those who insist that water baptism is necessary for salvation as heretics.
It is clear many do not believe one must be water baptized to be saved and they declare it is a sign of what we believe but they do not understand the clear teachings on water baptism being a requirement under the LAW. If they had not obeyed in water baptism at Pentecost they would not have been saved and the gift of the Holy Ghost would not have been received. Water baptism for remission under the LAW was superceded in the new testament by faith in the blood Christ shed for remission of sins which done away with the LAW. LAW is not GRACE ...know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 1 Cor. 5:6 (KJV)
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 1 Cor. 5:7 (KJV)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col. 2:12 (KJV)
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col. 2:13 (KJV)
Note this baptism is the OPERATION OF GOD and it is NOT water baptism. This is clearly a reference to Spiritual baptism through faith when we are quickened together with Him. Doctrine is not developed by adding words to scripture but the context is evidence of its meaning. Many take random scripture references out of context and add water to the mix and say, there I proved it. It simply will not work! The inspired word of God in reference to the "new" testament truth being not understood has caused many to add “water” to various verses but if we say one MUST be water baptized to be saved then it is clearly an offence to the cross.
If we read Romans 5 we can see how we are baptized into his death and the contrast of the old testament of obedience as compared to the new testament of obedience. Those who walk by sight and are still in the flesh say it is by obeying in water baptism but this is not what Paul said.
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom. 5:1 (KJV)
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom. 5:2 (KJV)
Faith is required not obedience to water baptism which is a "work" of the flesh. If a work is required then salvation must be earned. Jesus said “it is finished” and therefore no more “work” is required for salvation. Those who do not have “faith” in His finished work say water baptism is required and are still in their sins.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Rom. 5:9 (KJV)
We are justified by His blood in the new testament and the only way that can be received is by faith. Nothing more need be added unless you do not believe. The old message for remission of sins has been superceded by the greater witness of God (John 5:36) and the new message is faith in His blood for remission of sins not water baptism.
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Rom. 5:15 (KJV)
We can not add to the finished work of Christ and this "gift" must be received "freely" or it is no longer a gift.
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)
The contrast is clearly defined when compared with...And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him (Acts 5:32). It is not "our" obedience but by the obedience of "one" so that the gift may be "free". Some say it is not free and by adding their obedience they deny the word of God and void the free gift.
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:3 (KJV)
Note the contrast! It says baptized "into Jesus" as compared to "into water". How are we to get into Jesus?..."For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body" (1 Cor. 12:13) (KJV)...and it is the "one" baptism (Eph. 4:5) for us today.
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom. 6:4 (KJV)
Here it says "into death" not "water" . In other words when we are baptized by the Spirit we are in His body and we died with Him and it is received through "faith" freely by His obedience not ours.
The "new" testament baptism is "into his death" and should not be confused with the "old" testament baptism that was "into water".
Scripture is the inspired word of God and Paul wrote ....One Lord, one faith, one baptism (Eph. 4:5). There is only one baptism (NOT TWO) for us today and it is Spirit baptism. To disprove these words one must added the word water to various scriptures and God has commanded us not to add to His word.
In Christ
Craig
HopeofGlory
New member
JustAChristian
You said:
The Holy Spirit can not save, for this is not His mission. he works as the agent of God in the work of God's salvation.
My reply:
You blaspheme the Spirit of God!!!
But even unto this day, when Moses is read (THE LAW), the veil is upon their heart. 2 Cor. 3:15 (KJV)
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away (LAW REMOVED). 2 Cor. 3:16 (KJV)
NOW THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT (Holy Spirit): and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor. 3:17 (KJV)
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the "spirit" which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1 Cor. 2:12 (KJV)
Jesus said in reference to the new testament in His blood!!!
It is the "spirit" that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I speak unto you, they "are spirit", and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
The quickening of the spirit (baptism) is immediate when the words of the new testament are believed. The new testament is a new testimony with a greater witness (John 5:33-36) for remission of sins (Matt. 26:28) as opposed to the old testimony for remission (Mark 1:4).
In Christ
Craig
You said:
The Holy Spirit can not save, for this is not His mission. he works as the agent of God in the work of God's salvation.
My reply:
You blaspheme the Spirit of God!!!
But even unto this day, when Moses is read (THE LAW), the veil is upon their heart. 2 Cor. 3:15 (KJV)
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away (LAW REMOVED). 2 Cor. 3:16 (KJV)
NOW THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT (Holy Spirit): and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor. 3:17 (KJV)
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the "spirit" which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1 Cor. 2:12 (KJV)
Jesus said in reference to the new testament in His blood!!!
It is the "spirit" that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I speak unto you, they "are spirit", and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
The quickening of the spirit (baptism) is immediate when the words of the new testament are believed. The new testament is a new testimony with a greater witness (John 5:33-36) for remission of sins (Matt. 26:28) as opposed to the old testimony for remission (Mark 1:4).
In Christ
Craig
Freak
New member
JustaChristian-
Next time actually deal with what I wrote.
Jesus is an actual person-the eternal God. Water is just that water. Water cannot save you from eternal hell. You are deceived to think otherwise. Entering a RELATIONSHIP with God can only come through Jesus Christ not water. Water is something God created. Why not today choose to be saved by a actual Person-the Lord Jesus Christ, our Creator.
Next time actually deal with what I wrote.
Jesus is an actual person-the eternal God. Water is just that water. Water cannot save you from eternal hell. You are deceived to think otherwise. Entering a RELATIONSHIP with God can only come through Jesus Christ not water. Water is something God created. Why not today choose to be saved by a actual Person-the Lord Jesus Christ, our Creator.
JustAChristian
New member
Last edited:
JustAChristian
New member
Freak, I strongly agree with you. Water does not save, but it is essential in salvation (1 Peter 3:21; Acts 22:16; Acts 836-38). Jesus saves by his perfect law of livberty (James 1:25), but that law requires baptism (Matthew 28:18-20; John 3:3-5). The body of Christ, the church is the body of saved people (Gal 1:18). We are placed into the body when we are baptized (Acts 2:47). Its really not that hard to accept when you consider all God has to say about salvation. The Holy Spirit is God's servant in salvation, but he does not save. He works in salvatron, but he can not cleanse of sin or add you to the saved body. Only when we obey the Lord in those things that are commanded are we well pleasing ('Acts 2:38; Hebrews 5:8-9)
JustAChristian
JustAChristian
New member
Answering Some of Craig's Entries!!
Answering Some of Craig's Entries!!
I am just going to touch on some of the things that Craig has said. His entire post is above, and I commented on some of the things in my last post. Not wanting him to think that I am willfully overlooking what he has said, I will continue to comment at this time. Really, I wish Craig wouldn't write such long post because it is easy to overlook something. Maybe he will condense his post to a few paragraphs, but maybe he is writing a book! Anyway...........
Craig says;
Many would rather identify with those who insist on baptism into Christ by the Holy Spirit as the true baptism, and do not practice water baptismal regeneration and label those who insist that water baptism is necessary for salvation as heretics.
Now, Craig implies that I believe in water regeneration. I don't believe in water regeneration, and I believe that if I post it here that I don't believe in it Craig will continue to accuse me of believing. Watch his future post. See if he still accuses me of believing in water regeneration. What I do believe in is baptism. I believe that the baptism must take place in water (fresh or salt; it doesn't matter), and not some other element, such as sand or a wood pile. Why do I believe this? Because the bible says so. "See, here is water...(Acts 8:36). Craig wants you to believe that we are baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit (as the element). Let me ask you a question. How can you go down into the Holy Spirit? Philip and the Eunuch went down into the water. Did they go down into the Holy But, baptism take place in a "going down into" situation. "We are buried with him in baptism..." says Paul to the Roman church (Romans 6:4). Paul did not have a misunderstanding on where baptism takes place and neither do I. How about you? Are you still confused? Now, does all this make me a heretic? Am I going against the scriptures? I've not found where I am. Have I missed something?
Craig says,
It is clear many do not believe one must be water baptized to be saved and they declare it is a sign of what we believe but they do not understand the clear teachings on water baptism being a requirement under the LAW.
Whoa! Lets stop here a minute. Craig now wants us to believe that baptism was a part of the Mosaic Law. That's strange! I've never read that in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus or Numbers which contained the Law of Moses. Nor have I read it in the Prophets! I want to call upon Craig to tell us the verses that say baptism was a part of the Law of Moses. Now, don't try to slip those verses in on us that talk about "washings" and "sprinkling" They have nothing to do with baptism.
Contuinuing,
If they had not obeyed in water baptism at Pentecost they would not have been saved and the gift of the Holy Ghost would not have been received.
I'll have to give Craig an "A+" for that statement, but Craig, lets not put this event under the Law of Moses, okey! It is an event that takes place after Christ nailed the Law of Moses to the cross (Col. 2:14).
Further, he says...
Water baptism for remission under the LAW was superceded in the new testament by faith in the blood Christ shed for remission of sins which done away with the LAW. LAW is not GRACE ...know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 1 Cor. 5:6 (KJV) Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 1 Cor. 5:7 (KJV)
Now, Craig tries to emphasize his assertion that baptism was a part of the Law of Moses. He even tries to use two verses have nothing to do with baptism. Why don't we stay on the subject, Craig. We will talk about "leaven" some other time. And, I believe we all belivee that Christ was the sufficient sacrifice. Now, however, we're talking about baptism.
Again,
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col. 2:12 (KJV)
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col. 2:13 (KJV)
Well, Craig is finally back on the subject. He sees now that baptism is a burial. Just like I pointed out earlier. It is a going down into and a coming out of. Just like Christ was buried in the grave and came up out of the grave, we are buried in the likeness of his death, buried in a "watery grave" and raised up into new life , just like being in the likeness of the resurrected Christ (Romans 6:5) When did God "quicken together with him" ? Why, it was when the believer was UNITED with Christ!!!!! Now when did that happen? The bible says we were united with Christ in baptism (Galatians 3:26-27). We are made alive in the body of Christ (Col 2:13). There is no salvation outside of Christ, and no getting into the body of Christ without baptism (Acts 2:41-47).
Craig want us to...
Note this baptism is the OPERATION OF GOD and it is NOT water baptism.
Now, Craig will try to show that the OPERATION OF GOD is Holy Spirit baptism. What is an operation? Its an action. We are buried with Christ in baptism (clearly taught in the verse) and the operation takes place. What is the operation? It is the "being placed" into the body of Christ. We have faith in the operation of God. We are cleansed of sins in baptism ( See Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16), and placed into the body, the Lord's church (Acts 2:47). These people who heard the apostles preach on Pentecost were not baptized with the Holy Spirit. They were baptized in the same manner that John had baptized, in water. Peter told them to be baptized. It was an action for them to do. Christ baptized with the Holy Spirit, but there was nothing to be done on the part of the candidate. See, that make a big difference in understanding Holy Spirit baptism and water baptism.
Craig says,
This is clearly a reference to Spiritual baptism through faith when we are quickened together with Him
Craig says that this "clearly refers" to Holy Spirit baptism. I believe that I have shown that it refers to water baptism. Lets let you be the judge.
Craig:
Doctrine is not developed by adding words to scripture but the context is evidence of its meaning. Many take random scripture references out of context and add water to the mix and say, there I proved it. It simply will not work! The inspired word of God in reference to the "new" testament truth being not understood has caused many to add ““water”” to various verses but if we say one MUST be water baptized to be saved then it is clearly an offence to the cross.
Now, I admit I have used "water baptism" in phases before. In fact, I believe I have used it a time of two in this post, but have I added anything to scripture or commented on scripture? Baptism is really self descriptive. It is a "dipping" a "plunging" an "immersion" or an "overwhelming". To say "to baptize" is to say to dip, plunge, immerse or overwhelm. So, since I have made myself clear, I'll cease from using "water baptism" if Craig will stop using "new testament baptism". You see, there is only one baptism, and that happened in the time from the preaching of John ( Luke 16:16) forward. There is no baptism under the Law of Moses. The bible "clearly says" that baptism is essential for salvation (Mark 16:16). The context of the statement tells us that it is a baptism in water.
Craig:
If we read Romans 5 we can see how we are baptized into his death and the contrast of the old testament of obedience as compared to the new testament of obedience. Those who walk by sight and are still in the flesh say it is by obeying in water baptism but this is not what Paul said.
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom. 5:1 (KJV)
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom. 5:2 (KJV)
Craig wants us to believe that baptism is not a matter of faith. He wants something to justify us and calls that faith. Now, faith justifies, but how? It is a faith that works by love (Gal. 5:6). You take away an active faith and you have no faith at all. Being baptized into Christ is acting upon the command of Christ (Mark 16:16; Acts 10:48; Acts 22:16). Peter went to the house of Cornelius in Acts 10 being commissioned by Christ, so whatever he said or done was a direct reflection on Christ. He commanded Cornelius to be baptized, so that is a acting upon the authority of Jesus. If Cornelius disobeyed the command, would he have been disobeying Peter or Christ?
Faith is required not obedience to water baptism which is a "work" of the flesh.
Craig wants us to believe something commanded by Jesus Christ is a "work of the flesh". How blasphemous !
If a work is required then salvation must be earned. Jesus said ““it is finished”” and therefore no more ““work”” is required for salvation. Those who do not have ““faith”” in His finished work say water baptism is required and are still in their sins.
Craig, shall we cease repenting, confessing, walking in newness of life, sewing to the Spirit, and on- and- on which fall into your definition of "works of the flesh" Now, for a true understanding of "works of the flesh" read Galatians 5:19 and following.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Rom. 5:9 (KJV)
Craig now brings another point into play. This is good! Anything having to do with salvation is good. How does the blood justify? When it cleanses. To "justify" means to be made "spiritually cleaned". Your sins are washed away (Acts 22:16). But where does this happen? In baptism. Washed clean of sins and made ready to take on Satan and the wiles of the devil.
We are justified by His blood in the new testament and the only way that can be received is by faith. Nothing more need be added unless you do not believe. The old message for remission of sins has been superceded by the greater witness of God (John 5:36) and the new message is faith in His blood for remission of sins not water baptism.
Craig want you to believe that a commandment of Christ delivered by his apostles into all the world, namely to be baptized for the remission of sins, is not a matter of faith! Why, I always thought it was an act of faith! The bible says we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. What is "through faith" but an action on our part. If we don't act, we don't receive. If I put a gift on the table and tell someone it is theirs, when do they receive the gift? They must ACT to receive it. They must pick it up before they can benefit from it. Faith saves, but only when faith obeys (Hebrews 5:8-9).
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Rom. 5:15 (KJV)
We can not add to the finished work of Christ and this "gift" must be received "freely" or it is no longer a gift.
For as by one man’’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)
The contrast is clearly defined when compared with...And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him (Acts 5:32).
Craig, do you mean that in order to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit ( Acts 2:38; Romans 8:9) you have to do something? It is not a "free gift" at all. What do we have to do?
It is not "our" obedience but by the obedience of "one" so that the gift may be "free". Some say it is not free and by adding their obedience they deny the word of God and void the free gift.
Are you trying to say that Christ's obedience to death was sufficient for my salvation but I don't have to do (THROUGH FAITH) anything to obtain the gift of God? That is not the context of Holy Writ.
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:3 (KJV)
Note the contrast! It says baptized "into Jesus" as compared to "into water". How are we to get into Jesus?..."For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body" (1 Cor. 12:13) (KJV)...and it is the "one" baptism (Eph. 4:5) for us today.
Now, let me ask one question as we are finishing this post. How are you going to get into the spiritual body of Christ? Galatians 3 :26-27, clearly shows a baptism must take place, and that baptism must be in water (Acts 8:36). The Holy Spirit is not the element but the agent. He is doing the work of the Father in cleansing of sins, but sins are cleansed by the blood of Christ. The blood application takes place in the death of Christ (Romans 6:3-5), but only when we have obeyed the truth (1 Peter 1:21-22). The Holy Spirit does not save, but is active in salvation as the servant of God.
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom. 6:4 (KJV)
Clearly a baptism in water, which is essential before salvation can take place (Mark 16:16).
Here it says "into death" not "water" . In other words when we are baptized by the Spirit we are in His body and we died with Him and it is received through "faith" freely by His obedience not ours.
"If we have been planted in the likeness of His death, we shall also be raised in the likeness of his resurrection" ( Romans 6:5).
The "new" testament baptism is "into his death" and should not be confused with the "old" testament baptism that was "into water".
See, I told you earlier that Craig believed in an Old Testament baptism, but lets ask him for the verse of scripture.
Scripture is the inspired word of God and Paul wrote ....One Lord, one faith, one baptism (Eph. 4:5). There is only one baptism (NOT TWO) for us today and it is Spirit baptism. To disprove these words one must added the word water to various scriptures and God has commanded us not to add to His word.
I have clearly shown that baptism into Christ requires a going down into and a coming up from water. It is a burial. It is a planting. If I fail to accept this, then I discredit so many verses of scripture.
JustAChristian
Answering Some of Craig's Entries!!
I am just going to touch on some of the things that Craig has said. His entire post is above, and I commented on some of the things in my last post. Not wanting him to think that I am willfully overlooking what he has said, I will continue to comment at this time. Really, I wish Craig wouldn't write such long post because it is easy to overlook something. Maybe he will condense his post to a few paragraphs, but maybe he is writing a book! Anyway...........
Craig says;
Many would rather identify with those who insist on baptism into Christ by the Holy Spirit as the true baptism, and do not practice water baptismal regeneration and label those who insist that water baptism is necessary for salvation as heretics.
Now, Craig implies that I believe in water regeneration. I don't believe in water regeneration, and I believe that if I post it here that I don't believe in it Craig will continue to accuse me of believing. Watch his future post. See if he still accuses me of believing in water regeneration. What I do believe in is baptism. I believe that the baptism must take place in water (fresh or salt; it doesn't matter), and not some other element, such as sand or a wood pile. Why do I believe this? Because the bible says so. "See, here is water...(Acts 8:36). Craig wants you to believe that we are baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit (as the element). Let me ask you a question. How can you go down into the Holy Spirit? Philip and the Eunuch went down into the water. Did they go down into the Holy But, baptism take place in a "going down into" situation. "We are buried with him in baptism..." says Paul to the Roman church (Romans 6:4). Paul did not have a misunderstanding on where baptism takes place and neither do I. How about you? Are you still confused? Now, does all this make me a heretic? Am I going against the scriptures? I've not found where I am. Have I missed something?
Craig says,
It is clear many do not believe one must be water baptized to be saved and they declare it is a sign of what we believe but they do not understand the clear teachings on water baptism being a requirement under the LAW.
Whoa! Lets stop here a minute. Craig now wants us to believe that baptism was a part of the Mosaic Law. That's strange! I've never read that in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus or Numbers which contained the Law of Moses. Nor have I read it in the Prophets! I want to call upon Craig to tell us the verses that say baptism was a part of the Law of Moses. Now, don't try to slip those verses in on us that talk about "washings" and "sprinkling" They have nothing to do with baptism.
Contuinuing,
If they had not obeyed in water baptism at Pentecost they would not have been saved and the gift of the Holy Ghost would not have been received.
I'll have to give Craig an "A+" for that statement, but Craig, lets not put this event under the Law of Moses, okey! It is an event that takes place after Christ nailed the Law of Moses to the cross (Col. 2:14).
Further, he says...
Water baptism for remission under the LAW was superceded in the new testament by faith in the blood Christ shed for remission of sins which done away with the LAW. LAW is not GRACE ...know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 1 Cor. 5:6 (KJV) Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 1 Cor. 5:7 (KJV)
Now, Craig tries to emphasize his assertion that baptism was a part of the Law of Moses. He even tries to use two verses have nothing to do with baptism. Why don't we stay on the subject, Craig. We will talk about "leaven" some other time. And, I believe we all belivee that Christ was the sufficient sacrifice. Now, however, we're talking about baptism.
Again,
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col. 2:12 (KJV)
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col. 2:13 (KJV)
Well, Craig is finally back on the subject. He sees now that baptism is a burial. Just like I pointed out earlier. It is a going down into and a coming out of. Just like Christ was buried in the grave and came up out of the grave, we are buried in the likeness of his death, buried in a "watery grave" and raised up into new life , just like being in the likeness of the resurrected Christ (Romans 6:5) When did God "quicken together with him" ? Why, it was when the believer was UNITED with Christ!!!!! Now when did that happen? The bible says we were united with Christ in baptism (Galatians 3:26-27). We are made alive in the body of Christ (Col 2:13). There is no salvation outside of Christ, and no getting into the body of Christ without baptism (Acts 2:41-47).
Craig want us to...
Note this baptism is the OPERATION OF GOD and it is NOT water baptism.
Now, Craig will try to show that the OPERATION OF GOD is Holy Spirit baptism. What is an operation? Its an action. We are buried with Christ in baptism (clearly taught in the verse) and the operation takes place. What is the operation? It is the "being placed" into the body of Christ. We have faith in the operation of God. We are cleansed of sins in baptism ( See Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16), and placed into the body, the Lord's church (Acts 2:47). These people who heard the apostles preach on Pentecost were not baptized with the Holy Spirit. They were baptized in the same manner that John had baptized, in water. Peter told them to be baptized. It was an action for them to do. Christ baptized with the Holy Spirit, but there was nothing to be done on the part of the candidate. See, that make a big difference in understanding Holy Spirit baptism and water baptism.
Craig says,
This is clearly a reference to Spiritual baptism through faith when we are quickened together with Him
Craig says that this "clearly refers" to Holy Spirit baptism. I believe that I have shown that it refers to water baptism. Lets let you be the judge.
Craig:
Doctrine is not developed by adding words to scripture but the context is evidence of its meaning. Many take random scripture references out of context and add water to the mix and say, there I proved it. It simply will not work! The inspired word of God in reference to the "new" testament truth being not understood has caused many to add ““water”” to various verses but if we say one MUST be water baptized to be saved then it is clearly an offence to the cross.
Now, I admit I have used "water baptism" in phases before. In fact, I believe I have used it a time of two in this post, but have I added anything to scripture or commented on scripture? Baptism is really self descriptive. It is a "dipping" a "plunging" an "immersion" or an "overwhelming". To say "to baptize" is to say to dip, plunge, immerse or overwhelm. So, since I have made myself clear, I'll cease from using "water baptism" if Craig will stop using "new testament baptism". You see, there is only one baptism, and that happened in the time from the preaching of John ( Luke 16:16) forward. There is no baptism under the Law of Moses. The bible "clearly says" that baptism is essential for salvation (Mark 16:16). The context of the statement tells us that it is a baptism in water.
Craig:
If we read Romans 5 we can see how we are baptized into his death and the contrast of the old testament of obedience as compared to the new testament of obedience. Those who walk by sight and are still in the flesh say it is by obeying in water baptism but this is not what Paul said.
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom. 5:1 (KJV)
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom. 5:2 (KJV)
Craig wants us to believe that baptism is not a matter of faith. He wants something to justify us and calls that faith. Now, faith justifies, but how? It is a faith that works by love (Gal. 5:6). You take away an active faith and you have no faith at all. Being baptized into Christ is acting upon the command of Christ (Mark 16:16; Acts 10:48; Acts 22:16). Peter went to the house of Cornelius in Acts 10 being commissioned by Christ, so whatever he said or done was a direct reflection on Christ. He commanded Cornelius to be baptized, so that is a acting upon the authority of Jesus. If Cornelius disobeyed the command, would he have been disobeying Peter or Christ?
Faith is required not obedience to water baptism which is a "work" of the flesh.
Craig wants us to believe something commanded by Jesus Christ is a "work of the flesh". How blasphemous !
If a work is required then salvation must be earned. Jesus said ““it is finished”” and therefore no more ““work”” is required for salvation. Those who do not have ““faith”” in His finished work say water baptism is required and are still in their sins.
Craig, shall we cease repenting, confessing, walking in newness of life, sewing to the Spirit, and on- and- on which fall into your definition of "works of the flesh" Now, for a true understanding of "works of the flesh" read Galatians 5:19 and following.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Rom. 5:9 (KJV)
Craig now brings another point into play. This is good! Anything having to do with salvation is good. How does the blood justify? When it cleanses. To "justify" means to be made "spiritually cleaned". Your sins are washed away (Acts 22:16). But where does this happen? In baptism. Washed clean of sins and made ready to take on Satan and the wiles of the devil.
We are justified by His blood in the new testament and the only way that can be received is by faith. Nothing more need be added unless you do not believe. The old message for remission of sins has been superceded by the greater witness of God (John 5:36) and the new message is faith in His blood for remission of sins not water baptism.
Craig want you to believe that a commandment of Christ delivered by his apostles into all the world, namely to be baptized for the remission of sins, is not a matter of faith! Why, I always thought it was an act of faith! The bible says we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. What is "through faith" but an action on our part. If we don't act, we don't receive. If I put a gift on the table and tell someone it is theirs, when do they receive the gift? They must ACT to receive it. They must pick it up before they can benefit from it. Faith saves, but only when faith obeys (Hebrews 5:8-9).
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Rom. 5:15 (KJV)
We can not add to the finished work of Christ and this "gift" must be received "freely" or it is no longer a gift.
For as by one man’’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)
The contrast is clearly defined when compared with...And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him (Acts 5:32).
Craig, do you mean that in order to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit ( Acts 2:38; Romans 8:9) you have to do something? It is not a "free gift" at all. What do we have to do?
It is not "our" obedience but by the obedience of "one" so that the gift may be "free". Some say it is not free and by adding their obedience they deny the word of God and void the free gift.
Are you trying to say that Christ's obedience to death was sufficient for my salvation but I don't have to do (THROUGH FAITH) anything to obtain the gift of God? That is not the context of Holy Writ.
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:3 (KJV)
Note the contrast! It says baptized "into Jesus" as compared to "into water". How are we to get into Jesus?..."For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body" (1 Cor. 12:13) (KJV)...and it is the "one" baptism (Eph. 4:5) for us today.
Now, let me ask one question as we are finishing this post. How are you going to get into the spiritual body of Christ? Galatians 3 :26-27, clearly shows a baptism must take place, and that baptism must be in water (Acts 8:36). The Holy Spirit is not the element but the agent. He is doing the work of the Father in cleansing of sins, but sins are cleansed by the blood of Christ. The blood application takes place in the death of Christ (Romans 6:3-5), but only when we have obeyed the truth (1 Peter 1:21-22). The Holy Spirit does not save, but is active in salvation as the servant of God.
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom. 6:4 (KJV)
Clearly a baptism in water, which is essential before salvation can take place (Mark 16:16).
Here it says "into death" not "water" . In other words when we are baptized by the Spirit we are in His body and we died with Him and it is received through "faith" freely by His obedience not ours.
"If we have been planted in the likeness of His death, we shall also be raised in the likeness of his resurrection" ( Romans 6:5).
The "new" testament baptism is "into his death" and should not be confused with the "old" testament baptism that was "into water".
See, I told you earlier that Craig believed in an Old Testament baptism, but lets ask him for the verse of scripture.
Scripture is the inspired word of God and Paul wrote ....One Lord, one faith, one baptism (Eph. 4:5). There is only one baptism (NOT TWO) for us today and it is Spirit baptism. To disprove these words one must added the word water to various scriptures and God has commanded us not to add to His word.
I have clearly shown that baptism into Christ requires a going down into and a coming up from water. It is a burial. It is a planting. If I fail to accept this, then I discredit so many verses of scripture.
JustAChristian
HopeofGlory
New member
JustAChristian
Your "religion" is not truth and it denies the power of God unto salvation and gives credit to the "works of men". Water as Freak pointed out is of the earth and was a shadow under the law of
the Spirit from above. The baptist said....He must increase, but I must decrease. John 3:30 (KJV)
He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. John 3:31 (KJV)
You must understood that the things of God are not earthly and all power unto salvation is in His hands not the hands of earthly men.
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.2 Cor. 4:18 (KJV)
Your perception of salvation is seen with the eye of man, it is a work of the flesh by immersing into a visible element of the earth. I look not to this visual ritual but to a invisible power of the Spirit from my Father in heaven. This I know is truth and do testify to all men. Therefore we must all humble ourselves before the mighty God of heaven and give Him all the glory. It is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5). Salvation is in the power of the Spirit of God and it is He that washes and renews us eternally. Water has no power nor does the obedience of men. One who seeks to earn his salvation has a sense of fear in knowing he must endure to the end. One who knows he is without hope and seeks only the power of God unto salvation receives eternal remission. Only in God's mercy and grace can be found the peace of God which passeth all understanding (Phil4:7).
I cannot or will I ever understand how anyone can say, you must be water baptized to be saved. It is by the obedience of Christ to the cross that I am saved not by me dunking myself into water. The eyes of my understanding have been enlightened; that I may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of HIS POWER to us-ward who believe, according to the working of HIS mighty power (Eph. 1).
Salvation is understanding that Christ "died for our sins" and we therefore by FAITH are placed into His body and we died with Him. The operation of the Spirit of God, NOT MEN, is completely invisible to the eye, and it places us into Christ the moment we truly "believe" the message of the new testament. Now the message you believe (Acts 2:38) does not contain the truth of Christ. The Pentecostal experience of man's obedience in water baptism is completely void of the new testament (Matt. 26:28) message of Christ's shed blood for remission. Therefore I personally knowing that I am saved have no use at all for your religious belief. The need for a spotless sacrifice is the main theme of scripture and knowing that my righteous works are filthy rags, I dare not add my obedience to water baptism to my testimony of salvation. My testimony before God will be, Father I placed all my faith in the sacrifice of your Son. This is a spotless testimony!!!!! I fear many will added their works to their testimony thus spoiling it and making it absolutely unacceptable before God the Father.
You statement concerning Christ's death that it gave "FREEDOM FROM THE LAW BUT NOT FREED FROM SIN" is a display of your ignorance of the POWER OF GOD and sacrifice of His Son at the cross. These scriptures testify that your words are not true and reveal the POWER OF GOD unto salvation...
For he that is dead is freed from sin. Rom. 6:7 (KJV)
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Rom. 6:8 (KJV)
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. Rom. 6:18 (KJV)
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Rom. 6:22 (KJV)
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom. 6:23 (KJV)
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9 (KJV)
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the "spirit" which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1 Cor. 2:12 (KJV)
So when you say, we are not freed from sin by the death of Christ only tells me YOU are not free from sin!! Do you not know the wages of sins is death and you must be freed from it!!!!
The Spirit of God (the Word) teaches that sin is a transgression of the law! Christ removed the law for all those that trust in Him therefore where there is no law there can be no transgression.
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4 (KJV)
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 1 John 3:5 (KJV)
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Rom. 4:15 (KJV)
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed...Rom. 4:16 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
Your "religion" is not truth and it denies the power of God unto salvation and gives credit to the "works of men". Water as Freak pointed out is of the earth and was a shadow under the law of
the Spirit from above. The baptist said....He must increase, but I must decrease. John 3:30 (KJV)
He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. John 3:31 (KJV)
You must understood that the things of God are not earthly and all power unto salvation is in His hands not the hands of earthly men.
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.2 Cor. 4:18 (KJV)
Your perception of salvation is seen with the eye of man, it is a work of the flesh by immersing into a visible element of the earth. I look not to this visual ritual but to a invisible power of the Spirit from my Father in heaven. This I know is truth and do testify to all men. Therefore we must all humble ourselves before the mighty God of heaven and give Him all the glory. It is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5). Salvation is in the power of the Spirit of God and it is He that washes and renews us eternally. Water has no power nor does the obedience of men. One who seeks to earn his salvation has a sense of fear in knowing he must endure to the end. One who knows he is without hope and seeks only the power of God unto salvation receives eternal remission. Only in God's mercy and grace can be found the peace of God which passeth all understanding (Phil4:7).
I cannot or will I ever understand how anyone can say, you must be water baptized to be saved. It is by the obedience of Christ to the cross that I am saved not by me dunking myself into water. The eyes of my understanding have been enlightened; that I may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of HIS POWER to us-ward who believe, according to the working of HIS mighty power (Eph. 1).
Salvation is understanding that Christ "died for our sins" and we therefore by FAITH are placed into His body and we died with Him. The operation of the Spirit of God, NOT MEN, is completely invisible to the eye, and it places us into Christ the moment we truly "believe" the message of the new testament. Now the message you believe (Acts 2:38) does not contain the truth of Christ. The Pentecostal experience of man's obedience in water baptism is completely void of the new testament (Matt. 26:28) message of Christ's shed blood for remission. Therefore I personally knowing that I am saved have no use at all for your religious belief. The need for a spotless sacrifice is the main theme of scripture and knowing that my righteous works are filthy rags, I dare not add my obedience to water baptism to my testimony of salvation. My testimony before God will be, Father I placed all my faith in the sacrifice of your Son. This is a spotless testimony!!!!! I fear many will added their works to their testimony thus spoiling it and making it absolutely unacceptable before God the Father.
You statement concerning Christ's death that it gave "FREEDOM FROM THE LAW BUT NOT FREED FROM SIN" is a display of your ignorance of the POWER OF GOD and sacrifice of His Son at the cross. These scriptures testify that your words are not true and reveal the POWER OF GOD unto salvation...
For he that is dead is freed from sin. Rom. 6:7 (KJV)
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Rom. 6:8 (KJV)
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. Rom. 6:18 (KJV)
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Rom. 6:22 (KJV)
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom. 6:23 (KJV)
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9 (KJV)
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the "spirit" which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1 Cor. 2:12 (KJV)
So when you say, we are not freed from sin by the death of Christ only tells me YOU are not free from sin!! Do you not know the wages of sins is death and you must be freed from it!!!!
The Spirit of God (the Word) teaches that sin is a transgression of the law! Christ removed the law for all those that trust in Him therefore where there is no law there can be no transgression.
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4 (KJV)
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 1 John 3:5 (KJV)
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Rom. 4:15 (KJV)
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed...Rom. 4:16 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
Last edited:
Freak
New member
JustaChristian-
You said you agree water does not save but then you turn around and say it does. Which is it?
You remind me of those who attempt to pervert the true Biblical understanding of salvation by cloaking yourself within orthodoxy. A closer look into your understanding of how one is redeemed reveals you in fact pervert the Gospel with fallacies.
Salvation has always been accomplished by the Triune God and not by water regardless how strong you believe otherwise. The truth remains clear in the Holy Scriptures- salvation is found in Jesus Christ and Him alone. We have shown you over and over again this basic but fundamental truth and yet you refuse to believe. This is a travesty.
Rejecting salvation by faith and faith alone places you in the world of cults and their blaphemous teachings.
You said you agree water does not save but then you turn around and say it does. Which is it?
You remind me of those who attempt to pervert the true Biblical understanding of salvation by cloaking yourself within orthodoxy. A closer look into your understanding of how one is redeemed reveals you in fact pervert the Gospel with fallacies.
Salvation has always been accomplished by the Triune God and not by water regardless how strong you believe otherwise. The truth remains clear in the Holy Scriptures- salvation is found in Jesus Christ and Him alone. We have shown you over and over again this basic but fundamental truth and yet you refuse to believe. This is a travesty.
Rejecting salvation by faith and faith alone places you in the world of cults and their blaphemous teachings.