The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
servantofChrist
New member
HopeofGlory,
You challenged Kevin to show you where Jesus commanded water baptism. What's good for the goose is good for the gander! I will show you where Jesus commanded water baptism if you will also show all of the rest of us where Jesus said we are saved by grace through faith, and that we are not saved by works!
You challenged Kevin to show you where Jesus commanded water baptism. What's good for the goose is good for the gander! I will show you where Jesus commanded water baptism if you will also show all of the rest of us where Jesus said we are saved by grace through faith, and that we are not saved by works!
servantofChrist
New member
HoG,
You cited Acts 1:8 and other references and said that the "new baptism" is Holy Spirit baptism and not water baptism, and that Holy Spirit baptism is the baptism of Jesus and that He will do it, not men.
But Jesus specifically told His apostles, in sending them on their way (in the Great Commission of Matt. 28:19-20), that there were 3 things they were to do: (1) make disciples of all nations (2) baptizing them (3) teaching them to obey everything Jesus had commanded - and He had just commanded HIS APOSTLES to be BAPTIZING people of all nations. He did NOT say that HE HIMSELF (Jesus) was going to be the one to do the baptizing.
And this leads me to a question I hope you will answer: You say that Holy Spirit baptism is the "new baptism" and it is the baptism of Jesus, that He himself will perform. Do you believe that this new baptism, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, is necessary for salvation?
You cited Acts 1:8 and other references and said that the "new baptism" is Holy Spirit baptism and not water baptism, and that Holy Spirit baptism is the baptism of Jesus and that He will do it, not men.
But Jesus specifically told His apostles, in sending them on their way (in the Great Commission of Matt. 28:19-20), that there were 3 things they were to do: (1) make disciples of all nations (2) baptizing them (3) teaching them to obey everything Jesus had commanded - and He had just commanded HIS APOSTLES to be BAPTIZING people of all nations. He did NOT say that HE HIMSELF (Jesus) was going to be the one to do the baptizing.
And this leads me to a question I hope you will answer: You say that Holy Spirit baptism is the "new baptism" and it is the baptism of Jesus, that He himself will perform. Do you believe that this new baptism, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, is necessary for salvation?
JustAChristian
New member
Craig,
I don't think I have added anthing to scripture. Point out the addition (s).
If you believed in baptism you'd believe in a burial in water for the remission of sins. That is what Peter and Paul believed in. (Acts 2:38; Romans 6: 3-5). There is no contrediaction between their teaching and practice.
Tell me where I am hung up on fleshly works. Baptism is not a work of man but of God. If man originated it and I insisted that you do it then I would be wrong. Baptism came from God the Father and was preached by John in the wilderness and practices by Jesus and his disciples (apostles). I believe that a man must hear and do the word of God. (Matthew 7:24). I am not practicing man made works here. God compels me to listen and hear and then act upon the hearing. I have not told you one thing that a man has originated that you must do in order to be saved. All I have compelled you and others to do is obey God through Jesus Christ.
You that you have been Holy Spirit baptized. Well, lets reason on that. Jesus was the one to baptize in the Holy Spirit. He is in heaven at the right hand of the Father watching over his kingdom. He has commanded men to act within the kingdom in the preaching of the gospel and the baptizing of the believers. He is not doing secondary acts of baptizing with the Holy Spirit today. This has ceased with the perfect law of liberty (James 1:25) being delivered and preached into all the world (Col. 1:23). Today we have God's word confirmed with the signs and miracles of the first century age ( Mark 16:20). God wants his believers to preach the word to the lost of the world and if they will listen, then to commit them to be cleansed of sin (Acts 10:47-48).
This is how I see it and believe it. I don't think I have added anything to the scriptures by this conculusion. I don't think I have a thing to apoligize for.
JustAChristian
SOC
John certainly contrasts his water baptism with Jesus' baptism with the Holy Spirit & with fire.
The risen Lord Jesus promised his apostles that they would be baptised with the Holy Spirit.
When the Holy Spirit was poured out on them, they proclaimed the risen Lord Jesus Christ & baptised repentant sinners.
I do not agree with Craig that water baptism was ended, nor with you that it is necessary for salvation.
Absolutely. In fact Holy Spirit baptism INTO Christ is salvation.
Jhn 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
1 Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
...........
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
These verses show:
1. that is is necessary to be born again (from above) by the Holy Spirit
2. that the Holy SPirit of God gives the new birth, giving us spiritual life
3. that this spiritual life is "baptism into Christ"
4. that water baptism relates to Holy Spirit baptism
5. that the new life given by the Holy Spirit preceeds water baptism
6. that it is the work of the Holy Spirit to convince sinners of their sin & bring them to repentance, thus the Holy Spirit was active at Pentecost, awakening guilty sinners so that they repented & were baptised in water.
7. water baptism is commanded, but only for repentant sinners who are thus baptised into Christ by the Holy Spirit & baptised with water into the church.
8. those who received the Holy Spirit were baptised
I think that the visible manifestation of the Holy Spirit on Cornelius & at Pentecost (& on the Samaritans after the Apostles laid hands on them) was a visible sign of being baptised into Christ, attested the truth of the message, rather than a necessary manifestation for all, & us today.
i.e Holy SPirit baptism into Christ is not the charismatic/pentecostal experience, but it is the Holy Spirit giving life to the dead sinner.
John certainly contrasts his water baptism with Jesus' baptism with the Holy Spirit & with fire.
The risen Lord Jesus promised his apostles that they would be baptised with the Holy Spirit.
When the Holy Spirit was poured out on them, they proclaimed the risen Lord Jesus Christ & baptised repentant sinners.
I do not agree with Craig that water baptism was ended, nor with you that it is necessary for salvation.
Absolutely. In fact Holy Spirit baptism INTO Christ is salvation.
Jhn 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
1 Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
...........
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
These verses show:
1. that is is necessary to be born again (from above) by the Holy Spirit
2. that the Holy SPirit of God gives the new birth, giving us spiritual life
3. that this spiritual life is "baptism into Christ"
4. that water baptism relates to Holy Spirit baptism
5. that the new life given by the Holy Spirit preceeds water baptism
6. that it is the work of the Holy Spirit to convince sinners of their sin & bring them to repentance, thus the Holy Spirit was active at Pentecost, awakening guilty sinners so that they repented & were baptised in water.
7. water baptism is commanded, but only for repentant sinners who are thus baptised into Christ by the Holy Spirit & baptised with water into the church.
8. those who received the Holy Spirit were baptised
I think that the visible manifestation of the Holy Spirit on Cornelius & at Pentecost (& on the Samaritans after the Apostles laid hands on them) was a visible sign of being baptised into Christ, attested the truth of the message, rather than a necessary manifestation for all, & us today.
i.e Holy SPirit baptism into Christ is not the charismatic/pentecostal experience, but it is the Holy Spirit giving life to the dead sinner.
No quarter for error over here...
No quarter for error over here...
HoG –
As is typical of you, you want to continue to ask questions, spout your doctrine, and ignore reason. No answers and no explanation offered by you. I will humor you for now, but don’t count on my graciousness very long.
I believe there were –3- “dispensations”, but too many dispensationalists believe every time something new was revealed from God that it was a new dispensation in the making. Such is not the case.
After a period of dealing with man one on one (Ex. Abraham/Noah), the Old Covenant came in for God’s people under Moses:
1.) Made when Israel came out of bondage – Exodus 20:1-17
2.) Given at Sinai – Nehemiah 9:13-14
3.) Given to Israel ONLY – Exodus 31:12-17, Deut 5:1-5, 1 Kings 8:9,21
4.) O.T. was a sign between Israel and God – Ezekiel 20:10-12
That Old Covenant was to be replaced with a new covenant as prophesied and plainly explained as taken place, as told in the NT…
“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah…” – Hebrews 8:8. (Jeremiah 700 years earlier…)
Galatians 3:19 – The law was added, “till the seed should come to whom the promise hath been made.”
Verse 24 – The law was our “tutor” or “schoolmaster” to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Verse 25 – Now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor!
Colossians 2:14 – (God) “having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us: and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross.”
(Gal 3:13 – “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us….Cursed is everyone that hangs on a tree.”)
Ephesians 2:15 – (Christ) “having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace…”
Hebrews 8:13 - “But that which is becoming old and aged is nigh unto vanishing away.”
This having been accomplished by the death of Christ on the cross (Heb. 9:16, Eph. 2:14-19), the New Covenant is today in effect, which established the 3rd dispensation that God has established since creation. God speaks to us today through His Son – Hebrews 1:1.
Luke 24:47 tells us “repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name unto all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”
This is exactly what happened in Acts 2 on that Pentecost. The baptism for ALL NATIONS there was WATER baptism – “in the name” (by the authority) of Christ.
John the baptizer’s baptism was a “baptism of repentance” – Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3, and Acts 19:4, which was “unto the remission of sins.” John’s baptism looked forward, that is, "unto" the remission of sins would be made possible by the blood of Christ! (## If John’s baptism of repentance actually remitted sins, then Jesus did not have to die on the cross!! This is in harmony with what Jesus said – “…repentance and remission of sins would FIRST be preached in Jerusalem…” !!!) Paul would later baptize the Ephesians “in the name” of Christ, because they knew “only” John’s baptism. It was not sufficient!
Baptism “in the name” of Jesus as given in Matthew 28:18f, as replendidly stated above IS: INTO the Father/Son/HS - In WATER – For the remission of sins – To put one IN Christ – Is OUR death/burial/resurrection - To WASH away our sins!
Holy Spirit baptism on that Pentecost in Acts 2 was the result of promise and prophesy. Jesus promised the HS to the apostles - Acts 1:5, et.al. Later Peter told the crowd there, “THIS is THAT…” - Acts 2:16 – which was prophesied by the prophet Joel. Acts 2:17 & (Joel 2:28) – In the last days, God said, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh. All men did not and will not receive the Spirit, so “all flesh” means Jew and Gentile. When Cornelius received HS baptism in Acts 10, the prophesy of Joel was fulfilled – “all” flesh had received HS baptism! You will not find another event of HS baptism in the NT other than these –2-.
Therefore, HS baptism is NOT the baptism Jesus told his disciples in Matthew 28:19, or anywhere else, to baptize with “for every nation”.
Now HoG, before you fall too far behind, you had better answer some of the arguments above about what water baptism ”in the name” of Christ is. Kevin and I both slammed you that Jesus’ baptism of Mt. 28 IS water baptism and it IS commanded. You obviouly do not agree so – so ANSWER THE ARGUMENTS !!! It is time to “put up” ! We STUDY over here!
Btw, SoC is kicking you on the snout! You still need to answer his arguments also! Tomorrow I attack your posts of March 3.
No quarter for error over here...
HoG –
As is typical of you, you want to continue to ask questions, spout your doctrine, and ignore reason. No answers and no explanation offered by you. I will humor you for now, but don’t count on my graciousness very long.
I believe there were –3- “dispensations”, but too many dispensationalists believe every time something new was revealed from God that it was a new dispensation in the making. Such is not the case.
After a period of dealing with man one on one (Ex. Abraham/Noah), the Old Covenant came in for God’s people under Moses:
1.) Made when Israel came out of bondage – Exodus 20:1-17
2.) Given at Sinai – Nehemiah 9:13-14
3.) Given to Israel ONLY – Exodus 31:12-17, Deut 5:1-5, 1 Kings 8:9,21
4.) O.T. was a sign between Israel and God – Ezekiel 20:10-12
That Old Covenant was to be replaced with a new covenant as prophesied and plainly explained as taken place, as told in the NT…
“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah…” – Hebrews 8:8. (Jeremiah 700 years earlier…)
Galatians 3:19 – The law was added, “till the seed should come to whom the promise hath been made.”
Verse 24 – The law was our “tutor” or “schoolmaster” to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Verse 25 – Now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor!
Colossians 2:14 – (God) “having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us: and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross.”
(Gal 3:13 – “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us….Cursed is everyone that hangs on a tree.”)
Ephesians 2:15 – (Christ) “having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace…”
Hebrews 8:13 - “But that which is becoming old and aged is nigh unto vanishing away.”
This having been accomplished by the death of Christ on the cross (Heb. 9:16, Eph. 2:14-19), the New Covenant is today in effect, which established the 3rd dispensation that God has established since creation. God speaks to us today through His Son – Hebrews 1:1.
Luke 24:47 tells us “repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name unto all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”
This is exactly what happened in Acts 2 on that Pentecost. The baptism for ALL NATIONS there was WATER baptism – “in the name” (by the authority) of Christ.
John the baptizer’s baptism was a “baptism of repentance” – Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3, and Acts 19:4, which was “unto the remission of sins.” John’s baptism looked forward, that is, "unto" the remission of sins would be made possible by the blood of Christ! (## If John’s baptism of repentance actually remitted sins, then Jesus did not have to die on the cross!! This is in harmony with what Jesus said – “…repentance and remission of sins would FIRST be preached in Jerusalem…” !!!) Paul would later baptize the Ephesians “in the name” of Christ, because they knew “only” John’s baptism. It was not sufficient!
Baptism “in the name” of Jesus as given in Matthew 28:18f, as replendidly stated above IS: INTO the Father/Son/HS - In WATER – For the remission of sins – To put one IN Christ – Is OUR death/burial/resurrection - To WASH away our sins!
Holy Spirit baptism on that Pentecost in Acts 2 was the result of promise and prophesy. Jesus promised the HS to the apostles - Acts 1:5, et.al. Later Peter told the crowd there, “THIS is THAT…” - Acts 2:16 – which was prophesied by the prophet Joel. Acts 2:17 & (Joel 2:28) – In the last days, God said, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh. All men did not and will not receive the Spirit, so “all flesh” means Jew and Gentile. When Cornelius received HS baptism in Acts 10, the prophesy of Joel was fulfilled – “all” flesh had received HS baptism! You will not find another event of HS baptism in the NT other than these –2-.
Therefore, HS baptism is NOT the baptism Jesus told his disciples in Matthew 28:19, or anywhere else, to baptize with “for every nation”.
Now HoG, before you fall too far behind, you had better answer some of the arguments above about what water baptism ”in the name” of Christ is. Kevin and I both slammed you that Jesus’ baptism of Mt. 28 IS water baptism and it IS commanded. You obviouly do not agree so – so ANSWER THE ARGUMENTS !!! It is time to “put up” ! We STUDY over here!
Btw, SoC is kicking you on the snout! You still need to answer his arguments also! Tomorrow I attack your posts of March 3.
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JustAChristian
New member
Baptism Is Necessary To
Baptism Is Necessary To
Baptism Is Necessary To
JustAChristian
New member
Baptism Is Necessary To Be Saved.
Baptism Is Necessary To Be Saved.
Defining Baptism
It is a burial (Romans 6:4)
One is buried and is raises up (Col 2:12).
The new birth; Must be done as a part of the birth (John 3:3-5).
Shown as a going down into the water (Acts 8:38-39).
Requires much water (John 3:25).
Necessary To Be Saved.
One must be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).
To wash away one's sins (Acts 22:16).
To walk in newness of life (Romans 6:4).
To put on or come into Christ (Gal. 3:26-27).
To be obedient to God (Acts 10:47-48).
To answer the call of the Gospel (Mark 16:16).
On the Contrary, Holy Spirit Baptism requires..........
No one to be buried in baptism.
No one to be buried and raised up.
No one goes down into and comes forth out of.
Not any water at all.
No one to be baptized for the remission of sins.
No one to have sins washed away.
No one to walk in newness of life.
No one to be placed in the spiritual body of Christ.
No one to be obedient to the command of God.
No one to answer call of the Gospel.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit was totally subjective. It has for purpose the endowing of power to the apostles and the evidencing of God's authority through Peter's preaching at the house of Cornelius. All other manifestations of the Holy Spirit came at the laying on of hands of the apostles.
No one in the Jerulasem church is shown to have been baptized in the Holy Spirit except the apostles. The seven chosen to attend to the needs of the Grecian widows were not baptized in the Holy Spirit. Being filled with the Spirit is not being baptized with the Holy Spirit (Eph. 5:19). Philip the evangelist was not endowed with the power of the Holy Spirit to lay hands on believers and transfer the power of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:14-22). The Ethopian Eunuch shows no evidence of Holy Spirit baptism but he went on his way rejoicing in his salvation. (Acts 8:37f). The disciples at Ephesus that Paul baptized did not experience any change in their life until Paul laid hands on them. (Acts 19).
I could continue to point out discredits to your arguments but suffice it to say:
By one Spirit (the one Holy Spirit) were you baptized (as an agent of the Lord Jesus Christ) into one body (the one church) simply means that the Holy Spirit acts as the organizer of God in placing things in order. He does this by God's pattern and design. He does not act independent of the Father's will, but harmonizes with that will. There is no clensing as a result of Holy Spirit baptism but endowment and giving of evidence. The word of God is truth. We are saved by obedience to truth (John 4:24; Romans 1:5). We are saved by water baptism only when we have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine (Romans 6:16-17). Jesus sit at work today at the right hand of the Father as intercessor and mediator for the saved(Romans 8:34; 1 Tim. 2:5).
Holy Spirit baptism was never designed to save. "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free" (John 4:24). For the Holy Spirit to save, he would be acting independent of the truth, and that is contaray of God's will. He (the Spirit) guided the apostles into all truth (John 16:13) and to the writing only truth (John 20:31). Ananias the was a Christian, but he lied to the Holy Spirit when he said that he had sold the property for so much (Acts 5). If he was baptized of the Holy Spirit, he would not have lied about the matter. He would have been guided into all truth. The Holy Spirit convicts man of sin (John 16:8) through the preaching of the Gospel (Romans 1:16-18). We see the working of the Holy Spirit in presenting the truth of God, but we never see him as the element of cleansing from sins.
JustAChristian
Baptism Is Necessary To Be Saved.
Defining Baptism
It is a burial (Romans 6:4)
One is buried and is raises up (Col 2:12).
The new birth; Must be done as a part of the birth (John 3:3-5).
Shown as a going down into the water (Acts 8:38-39).
Requires much water (John 3:25).
Necessary To Be Saved.
One must be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).
To wash away one's sins (Acts 22:16).
To walk in newness of life (Romans 6:4).
To put on or come into Christ (Gal. 3:26-27).
To be obedient to God (Acts 10:47-48).
To answer the call of the Gospel (Mark 16:16).
On the Contrary, Holy Spirit Baptism requires..........
No one to be buried in baptism.
No one to be buried and raised up.
No one goes down into and comes forth out of.
Not any water at all.
No one to be baptized for the remission of sins.
No one to have sins washed away.
No one to walk in newness of life.
No one to be placed in the spiritual body of Christ.
No one to be obedient to the command of God.
No one to answer call of the Gospel.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit was totally subjective. It has for purpose the endowing of power to the apostles and the evidencing of God's authority through Peter's preaching at the house of Cornelius. All other manifestations of the Holy Spirit came at the laying on of hands of the apostles.
No one in the Jerulasem church is shown to have been baptized in the Holy Spirit except the apostles. The seven chosen to attend to the needs of the Grecian widows were not baptized in the Holy Spirit. Being filled with the Spirit is not being baptized with the Holy Spirit (Eph. 5:19). Philip the evangelist was not endowed with the power of the Holy Spirit to lay hands on believers and transfer the power of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:14-22). The Ethopian Eunuch shows no evidence of Holy Spirit baptism but he went on his way rejoicing in his salvation. (Acts 8:37f). The disciples at Ephesus that Paul baptized did not experience any change in their life until Paul laid hands on them. (Acts 19).
I could continue to point out discredits to your arguments but suffice it to say:
By one Spirit (the one Holy Spirit) were you baptized (as an agent of the Lord Jesus Christ) into one body (the one church) simply means that the Holy Spirit acts as the organizer of God in placing things in order. He does this by God's pattern and design. He does not act independent of the Father's will, but harmonizes with that will. There is no clensing as a result of Holy Spirit baptism but endowment and giving of evidence. The word of God is truth. We are saved by obedience to truth (John 4:24; Romans 1:5). We are saved by water baptism only when we have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine (Romans 6:16-17). Jesus sit at work today at the right hand of the Father as intercessor and mediator for the saved(Romans 8:34; 1 Tim. 2:5).
Holy Spirit baptism was never designed to save. "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free" (John 4:24). For the Holy Spirit to save, he would be acting independent of the truth, and that is contaray of God's will. He (the Spirit) guided the apostles into all truth (John 16:13) and to the writing only truth (John 20:31). Ananias the was a Christian, but he lied to the Holy Spirit when he said that he had sold the property for so much (Acts 5). If he was baptized of the Holy Spirit, he would not have lied about the matter. He would have been guided into all truth. The Holy Spirit convicts man of sin (John 16:8) through the preaching of the Gospel (Romans 1:16-18). We see the working of the Holy Spirit in presenting the truth of God, but we never see him as the element of cleansing from sins.
JustAChristian
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HopeofGlory
New member
Apollos,
You said:
This is the ONLY baptism authorized by Jesus Christ for man today! This baptism was revealed just prior to His ascension! This is the only ONE baptism Christ gave & commanded.
My reply:
Just before His ascension Jesus said they would be baptized with the Holy Ghost!
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)
Yet you say Jesus did not authorize this baptism? Seems to me you’re a liar!
I said:
Water baptism from its inception before the cross was for remission of sins but we have a new message in the new testament for remission.
You said:
Well, this is just a big juicy WRONG! THIS (water) baptism is NEW and definitely AFTER the cross!!! THIS baptism was NEVER a part of the OLD covenant and it is for ALL (ethnos) nations.
My Reply:
Before the cross:
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS. Mark 1:4 (KJV)
Water baptism was not new, it was performed BEFORE the cross for REMISSION OF SINS and it was an old testament ritual under the Mosaic law. It made them a NATION of PRIEST (Ex 19:5).Some people never learn! Keep studing!
In case you missed it:
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
Blood for remission not water for remission! Again you deny the very words of Christ in favor of your doctrine.
Read this slowly and learn:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt. 28:19 (KJV)
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt. 28:20 (KJV)
Where is the word WATER? You added it didn’t you! Jesus never command water baptism!
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: Rev. 22:18 (KJV)
You said:
(Do you realize that HS baptism is NEVER commanded or required?? WHAT would HS baptism be FOR – to save?? It is NEVER seen as such in the NT ! HS baptism was the result of prophesy and promise only and happened only twice.)
My reply:
Scripture testifies that the Spirit baptizes us ALL into the body therefore it is REQUIRED. It is not water as you seem to believe. You’re blinded by your false doctrine and you have fallen into the ditch of unbelief.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)
You said:
Therefore I believe that this “gift” is the gift of salvation (via remission of sins) that the HS has now made known unto them (and to us today) via the Word that the HS has revealed to them at that time through the apostles’ preaching and to us today through the Bible.
My reply:
Wrong again!
But ye shall receive “power“, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:8 (KJV)
It appears you have never been baptized by the Spirit into the body thus you are ignorant of Spiritual things and that is why you trust in the works of your flesh and not in the Spirit of God.
In Christ
Craig
You said:
This is the ONLY baptism authorized by Jesus Christ for man today! This baptism was revealed just prior to His ascension! This is the only ONE baptism Christ gave & commanded.
My reply:
Just before His ascension Jesus said they would be baptized with the Holy Ghost!
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)
Yet you say Jesus did not authorize this baptism? Seems to me you’re a liar!
I said:
Water baptism from its inception before the cross was for remission of sins but we have a new message in the new testament for remission.
You said:
Well, this is just a big juicy WRONG! THIS (water) baptism is NEW and definitely AFTER the cross!!! THIS baptism was NEVER a part of the OLD covenant and it is for ALL (ethnos) nations.
My Reply:
Before the cross:
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS. Mark 1:4 (KJV)
Water baptism was not new, it was performed BEFORE the cross for REMISSION OF SINS and it was an old testament ritual under the Mosaic law. It made them a NATION of PRIEST (Ex 19:5).Some people never learn! Keep studing!
In case you missed it:
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
Blood for remission not water for remission! Again you deny the very words of Christ in favor of your doctrine.
Read this slowly and learn:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt. 28:19 (KJV)
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt. 28:20 (KJV)
Where is the word WATER? You added it didn’t you! Jesus never command water baptism!
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: Rev. 22:18 (KJV)
You said:
(Do you realize that HS baptism is NEVER commanded or required?? WHAT would HS baptism be FOR – to save?? It is NEVER seen as such in the NT ! HS baptism was the result of prophesy and promise only and happened only twice.)
My reply:
Scripture testifies that the Spirit baptizes us ALL into the body therefore it is REQUIRED. It is not water as you seem to believe. You’re blinded by your false doctrine and you have fallen into the ditch of unbelief.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)
You said:
Therefore I believe that this “gift” is the gift of salvation (via remission of sins) that the HS has now made known unto them (and to us today) via the Word that the HS has revealed to them at that time through the apostles’ preaching and to us today through the Bible.
My reply:
Wrong again!
But ye shall receive “power“, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:8 (KJV)
It appears you have never been baptized by the Spirit into the body thus you are ignorant of Spiritual things and that is why you trust in the works of your flesh and not in the Spirit of God.
In Christ
Craig
HopeofGlory
New member
Waterdog,
My replies in bold
As is typical of you, you want to continue to ask questions, spout your doctrine, and ignore reason. No answers and no explanation offered by you. I will humor you for now, but don’t count on my graciousness very long.
I never count on your “graciousness” because you have not obtained grace.... yet.
I believe there were –3- “dispensations”, but too many dispensationalists believe every time something new was revealed from God that it was a new dispensation in the making. Such is not the case.
So then, you are a dispensationalist. (((LOL))))
“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah…” – Hebrews 8:8. (Jeremiah 700 years earlier…)
Knowledge is found in this verse but sadly a “dog” like you can’t sniff it out. I guess you’re not a blood hound.
Galatians 3:19 – The law was added, “till the seed should come to whom the promise hath been made.”
Verse 24 – The law was our “tutor” or “schoolmaster” to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Verse 25 – Now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor!
Water baptism is part of the Mosaic law. Perk up those ears now! It granted remission until the blood covenant became effectual.
Colossians 2:14 – (God) “having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us: and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross.”
Here boy, one more time! Water baptism was a ordinance contained in the LAW.
(Gal 3:13 – “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us….Cursed is everyone that hangs on a tree.”)
Christ redeemed us with His BLOOD not with the Mosaic LAW!
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 1 Pet. 1:18 (KJV)
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Pet. 1:19 (KJV).
Ephesians 2:15 – (Christ) “having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace…”
Amen!
Hebrews 8:13 - “But that which is becoming old and aged is nigh unto vanishing away.”
Amen!
This having been accomplished by the death of Christ on the cross (Heb. 9:16, Eph. 2:14-19), the New Covenant is today in effect, which established the 3rd dispensation that God has established since creation. God speaks to us today through His Son – Hebrews 1:1.
The new covenant is......For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matt. 26:28).....and that’s not water baptism!
Luke 24:47 tells us “repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name unto all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”
Water, water everywhere and not a drop to drink.
This is exactly what happened in Acts 2 on that Pentecost. The baptism for ALL NATIONS there was WATER baptism – “in the name” (by the authority) of Christ.
For BY ONE SPIRIT are we ALL BAPTIZED into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to DRINK into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)
Now here’s something you should take a looooong drink of!!!
And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, DRINK ye ALL of it; Matt. 26:27 (KJV)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
John the baptizer’s baptism was a “baptism of repentance” – Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3, and Acts 19:4, which was “unto the remission of sins.” John’s baptism looked forward, that is, "unto" the remission of sins would be made possible by the blood of Christ! (## If John’s baptism of repentance actually remitted sins, then Jesus did not have to die on the cross!! This is in harmony with what Jesus said – “…repentance and remission of sins would FIRST be preached in Jerusalem…” !!!) Paul would later baptize the Ephesians “in the name” of Christ, because they knew “only” John’s baptism. It was not sufficient!
Like I said, water, water everywhere...uh, the Spirit must be around here somewhere??????????????
Baptism “in the name” of Jesus as given in Matthew 28:18f, as replendidly stated above IS: INTO the Father/Son/HS - In WATER – For the remission of sins – To put one IN Christ – Is OUR death/burial/resurrection - To WASH away our sins!
No one was ever WATER baptized in the name of the Father/Son/(I now it’s hard for you to say) HOLY SPIRIT.
And one Ananias, A DEVOUT MAN ACCORDING TO THE LAW, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, Acts 22:12 (KJV)
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD. Acts 22:16 (KJV)
Well, there's that dang LAW again!
Holy Spirit baptism on that Pentecost in Acts 2 was the result of promise and prophesy. Jesus promised the HS to the apostles - Acts 1:5, et.al. Later Peter told the crowd there, “THIS is THAT…” - Acts 2:16 – which was prophesied by the prophet Joel. Acts 2:17 & (Joel 2:28) – In the last days, God said, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh. All men did not and will not receive the Spirit, so “all flesh” means Jew and Gentile. When Cornelius received HS baptism in Acts 10, the prophesy of Joel was fulfilled – “all” flesh had received HS baptism! You will not find another event of HS baptism in the NT other than these –2-.
That is a blatant denial of scripture! All flesh=All men who believe!
Be glad then, ye CHILDREN OF ZION, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. Joel 2:23 (KJV)
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; John 14:16 (KJV)
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:17 (KJV)
Therefore, HS baptism is NOT the baptism Jesus told his disciples in Matthew 28:19, or anywhere else, to baptize with “for every nation”.
Your conclusion is based your denial of scriptural truth and it just plain want hold water!
In Christ
Craig
My replies in bold
As is typical of you, you want to continue to ask questions, spout your doctrine, and ignore reason. No answers and no explanation offered by you. I will humor you for now, but don’t count on my graciousness very long.
I never count on your “graciousness” because you have not obtained grace.... yet.
I believe there were –3- “dispensations”, but too many dispensationalists believe every time something new was revealed from God that it was a new dispensation in the making. Such is not the case.
So then, you are a dispensationalist. (((LOL))))
“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah…” – Hebrews 8:8. (Jeremiah 700 years earlier…)
Knowledge is found in this verse but sadly a “dog” like you can’t sniff it out. I guess you’re not a blood hound.
Galatians 3:19 – The law was added, “till the seed should come to whom the promise hath been made.”
Verse 24 – The law was our “tutor” or “schoolmaster” to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Verse 25 – Now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor!
Water baptism is part of the Mosaic law. Perk up those ears now! It granted remission until the blood covenant became effectual.
Colossians 2:14 – (God) “having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us: and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross.”
Here boy, one more time! Water baptism was a ordinance contained in the LAW.
(Gal 3:13 – “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us….Cursed is everyone that hangs on a tree.”)
Christ redeemed us with His BLOOD not with the Mosaic LAW!
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 1 Pet. 1:18 (KJV)
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Pet. 1:19 (KJV).
Ephesians 2:15 – (Christ) “having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace…”
Amen!
Hebrews 8:13 - “But that which is becoming old and aged is nigh unto vanishing away.”
Amen!
This having been accomplished by the death of Christ on the cross (Heb. 9:16, Eph. 2:14-19), the New Covenant is today in effect, which established the 3rd dispensation that God has established since creation. God speaks to us today through His Son – Hebrews 1:1.
The new covenant is......For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matt. 26:28).....and that’s not water baptism!
Luke 24:47 tells us “repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name unto all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”
Water, water everywhere and not a drop to drink.
This is exactly what happened in Acts 2 on that Pentecost. The baptism for ALL NATIONS there was WATER baptism – “in the name” (by the authority) of Christ.
For BY ONE SPIRIT are we ALL BAPTIZED into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to DRINK into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)
Now here’s something you should take a looooong drink of!!!
And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, DRINK ye ALL of it; Matt. 26:27 (KJV)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
John the baptizer’s baptism was a “baptism of repentance” – Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3, and Acts 19:4, which was “unto the remission of sins.” John’s baptism looked forward, that is, "unto" the remission of sins would be made possible by the blood of Christ! (## If John’s baptism of repentance actually remitted sins, then Jesus did not have to die on the cross!! This is in harmony with what Jesus said – “…repentance and remission of sins would FIRST be preached in Jerusalem…” !!!) Paul would later baptize the Ephesians “in the name” of Christ, because they knew “only” John’s baptism. It was not sufficient!
Like I said, water, water everywhere...uh, the Spirit must be around here somewhere??????????????
Baptism “in the name” of Jesus as given in Matthew 28:18f, as replendidly stated above IS: INTO the Father/Son/HS - In WATER – For the remission of sins – To put one IN Christ – Is OUR death/burial/resurrection - To WASH away our sins!
No one was ever WATER baptized in the name of the Father/Son/(I now it’s hard for you to say) HOLY SPIRIT.
And one Ananias, A DEVOUT MAN ACCORDING TO THE LAW, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, Acts 22:12 (KJV)
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD. Acts 22:16 (KJV)
Well, there's that dang LAW again!
Holy Spirit baptism on that Pentecost in Acts 2 was the result of promise and prophesy. Jesus promised the HS to the apostles - Acts 1:5, et.al. Later Peter told the crowd there, “THIS is THAT…” - Acts 2:16 – which was prophesied by the prophet Joel. Acts 2:17 & (Joel 2:28) – In the last days, God said, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh. All men did not and will not receive the Spirit, so “all flesh” means Jew and Gentile. When Cornelius received HS baptism in Acts 10, the prophesy of Joel was fulfilled – “all” flesh had received HS baptism! You will not find another event of HS baptism in the NT other than these –2-.
That is a blatant denial of scripture! All flesh=All men who believe!
Be glad then, ye CHILDREN OF ZION, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. Joel 2:23 (KJV)
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; John 14:16 (KJV)
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:17 (KJV)
Therefore, HS baptism is NOT the baptism Jesus told his disciples in Matthew 28:19, or anywhere else, to baptize with “for every nation”.
Your conclusion is based your denial of scriptural truth and it just plain want hold water!
In Christ
Craig
Last edited:
Thanks for explaining away the truth of the Word of God.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
We are saved by the work of the Holy Spirit as described by Paul to Titus. We CANNOT obey from the heart without a renewed heart. (cf Ezek 36)
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
Its not the water that cleanses, but the Holy Spirit, renewing our fallen nature, & applying the blood of Christ, the blood of sprinkling, the significance of which baptism is the sign.
JustAChristian
New member
Craig,
When Jesus told his apostles that they were to be baptized with the Holy Spirit, it was ment solely for them. No one else on Pentecost was baptized with the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was to endow the apostles with power to do their assigned work of preaching the gospel. It did not save them, it did not cleanse them, it did not add them to the church. All this is the property of water baptism. It is not the water that does it but the act of being baptized in obedience to the command. You and others look to our action as our depending on water for salvation, and in spite of our teaching that we don't still you want to cover your sins by distracting from our teaching. Baptism saves, not water. Jesus finished his work and the apostles continued their work with power from on high. They worked in an era of signs and wonders wrought by the Holy Spirit in confirming the word. Haven't you ever read things like this in the New Testament? Surely you have. Why don't you believe the word and cease with you hobby of distraction. The Bible still says, "He that believes (acts on the part of the believer) and is baptized (an act of obedience) shall be saved." (Mark 16:16) You can't obey Holy Spirit baptism, but you can water baptism. One of them has to be obeyed in order to be saved. Can I make it any plainer? I don't think so!
JustAChristian
When Jesus told his apostles that they were to be baptized with the Holy Spirit, it was ment solely for them. No one else on Pentecost was baptized with the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was to endow the apostles with power to do their assigned work of preaching the gospel. It did not save them, it did not cleanse them, it did not add them to the church. All this is the property of water baptism. It is not the water that does it but the act of being baptized in obedience to the command. You and others look to our action as our depending on water for salvation, and in spite of our teaching that we don't still you want to cover your sins by distracting from our teaching. Baptism saves, not water. Jesus finished his work and the apostles continued their work with power from on high. They worked in an era of signs and wonders wrought by the Holy Spirit in confirming the word. Haven't you ever read things like this in the New Testament? Surely you have. Why don't you believe the word and cease with you hobby of distraction. The Bible still says, "He that believes (acts on the part of the believer) and is baptized (an act of obedience) shall be saved." (Mark 16:16) You can't obey Holy Spirit baptism, but you can water baptism. One of them has to be obeyed in order to be saved. Can I make it any plainer? I don't think so!
JustAChristian
Evangelion
New member
Well said that man.
Alot of squealing but no substance...
Alot of squealing but no substance...
HoG –
Your old tricks of insulting and then ignoring logical debate won’t work. You are going to have to address the substance of the debates here or go back hiding in your pen. Now my quick response to the “noise” you put up in your last post…
-Baptism “in the name of Christ” IS the ONLY baptism authorized by Jesus for man to perform and receive today. Where did Jesus authorize (you know, grant permission) for HS baptism for man today?
-Baptism “in the name of Christ” came AFTER the cross –it was a NEW baptism – never before seen. You disagree so prove otherwise!
-Jesus did baptize with the HS – just as he promised to the apostles… …R-E-A-D slowly… JESUS baptizes with the HS – not man! Seems to me if you get the mud out of your eyes, you might R-E-A-D and understand both what I write and what the Bible is saying.
-You do not understand what John’s baptism was about. What part of my argument about it being for repentance and NOT actually giving the remission of sins did you not understand?? Address my argument – It looked forward to remission of sins – Jesus blood not shed yet so no remission yet - Lk. 24:47, Repentance & remission FIRST at Jerusalem! Well??
-What part of the difference I offered between Christ’s baptism and [/u]John’s baptism[/u] do you disagree with?? Well??
-Find in the Mosaical Law where “water baptism” (ei. immersion) was a ritual there as you claim. (That would be Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Dueteronomy. Hey, use all 39 books! Please show it to me when you find it –ok?) Maybe you can show where John’s baptism is found there…hmm? Root around a while there in your pen – maybe you will find it!
-Christ’s blood WAS shed for remission of sins. What you perpetually miss is… HOW does man appropriate the salvation that His blood procured for him?? Water baptism is the means selected by God through which man appropriates the salvation He offers to man by His grace! You disagree and you are wrong as usual. You do not know how to obtain remission of sins!
(##But do tell us HOW you think man appropriates salvation from God which is made available by Jesus’ blood. How does man obtain remission of his sin?? Tell us !!)
-Okay, let’s look at Matthew 28:19 through a pig’s eye because you cannot answer the arguments about it being water baptism. What does it mean to be “BAPTIZED into the name of the Father, Son, and HS” ?? Where in scripture is this baptism practiced ??? You do not know what it means or what you believe about it. [/i]You only know that your BIAS is telling you what it CANNOT be![/i]
You say I added the word water, yet you will not answer my argument that the baptism commanded in Mt. 28:19 is baptism “in the name” of Jesus AND that in Acts 10:47-48 we see that baptsim “in the name” is WATER baptism. If this is wrong, oink up now! Unlike you, I consider ALL the scriptures God provides on a topic before making a decision on it.
-1 Cor. 12:13. You claim this is HS baptism…PROVE IT! To say this is HS baptism in this verse is INCONSISTENT with Paul’s practice and preaching!
Of course, you provided NO scriptures that show HS baptism as being required, commanded, or for the remission of sins. Why?? (It cannot be done, huh?)
-In Acts 2:39 the “gift” is salvation. You disagree so PROVE what this gift is. Your lame offering of Acts 1:8 was proof of nothing. Don’t you know what you believe??
-I am not a “dispensationalist” in the sense that most mean it around TOL. If you find pleasure in calling me one, that is fine by me, as long as you understand what I believe.
HoG, as is typical of you, I do not really expect you to answer anything. Just as the last time when we “discussed” scriptures, you arise like a foul vapor to spoil the air for but a time, then you will pass away. However, I do “hope” (lol) that you will attempt to answer some of the questions. Who knows, you may just rollover on some truth here.
(An expose’ of your posts of March 3 soon. And when will you answer SoC? Your snout must be getting sore by now!)
Alot of squealing but no substance...
HoG –
Your old tricks of insulting and then ignoring logical debate won’t work. You are going to have to address the substance of the debates here or go back hiding in your pen. Now my quick response to the “noise” you put up in your last post…
-Baptism “in the name of Christ” IS the ONLY baptism authorized by Jesus for man to perform and receive today. Where did Jesus authorize (you know, grant permission) for HS baptism for man today?
-Baptism “in the name of Christ” came AFTER the cross –it was a NEW baptism – never before seen. You disagree so prove otherwise!
-Jesus did baptize with the HS – just as he promised to the apostles… …R-E-A-D slowly… JESUS baptizes with the HS – not man! Seems to me if you get the mud out of your eyes, you might R-E-A-D and understand both what I write and what the Bible is saying.
-You do not understand what John’s baptism was about. What part of my argument about it being for repentance and NOT actually giving the remission of sins did you not understand?? Address my argument – It looked forward to remission of sins – Jesus blood not shed yet so no remission yet - Lk. 24:47, Repentance & remission FIRST at Jerusalem! Well??
-What part of the difference I offered between Christ’s baptism and [/u]John’s baptism[/u] do you disagree with?? Well??
-Find in the Mosaical Law where “water baptism” (ei. immersion) was a ritual there as you claim. (That would be Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Dueteronomy. Hey, use all 39 books! Please show it to me when you find it –ok?) Maybe you can show where John’s baptism is found there…hmm? Root around a while there in your pen – maybe you will find it!
-Christ’s blood WAS shed for remission of sins. What you perpetually miss is… HOW does man appropriate the salvation that His blood procured for him?? Water baptism is the means selected by God through which man appropriates the salvation He offers to man by His grace! You disagree and you are wrong as usual. You do not know how to obtain remission of sins!
(##But do tell us HOW you think man appropriates salvation from God which is made available by Jesus’ blood. How does man obtain remission of his sin?? Tell us !!)
-Okay, let’s look at Matthew 28:19 through a pig’s eye because you cannot answer the arguments about it being water baptism. What does it mean to be “BAPTIZED into the name of the Father, Son, and HS” ?? Where in scripture is this baptism practiced ??? You do not know what it means or what you believe about it. [/i]You only know that your BIAS is telling you what it CANNOT be![/i]
You say I added the word water, yet you will not answer my argument that the baptism commanded in Mt. 28:19 is baptism “in the name” of Jesus AND that in Acts 10:47-48 we see that baptsim “in the name” is WATER baptism. If this is wrong, oink up now! Unlike you, I consider ALL the scriptures God provides on a topic before making a decision on it.
-1 Cor. 12:13. You claim this is HS baptism…PROVE IT! To say this is HS baptism in this verse is INCONSISTENT with Paul’s practice and preaching!
Of course, you provided NO scriptures that show HS baptism as being required, commanded, or for the remission of sins. Why?? (It cannot be done, huh?)
-In Acts 2:39 the “gift” is salvation. You disagree so PROVE what this gift is. Your lame offering of Acts 1:8 was proof of nothing. Don’t you know what you believe??
-I am not a “dispensationalist” in the sense that most mean it around TOL. If you find pleasure in calling me one, that is fine by me, as long as you understand what I believe.
HoG, as is typical of you, I do not really expect you to answer anything. Just as the last time when we “discussed” scriptures, you arise like a foul vapor to spoil the air for but a time, then you will pass away. However, I do “hope” (lol) that you will attempt to answer some of the questions. Who knows, you may just rollover on some truth here.
(An expose’ of your posts of March 3 soon. And when will you answer SoC? Your snout must be getting sore by now!)
Water is the means selected by God... It is not the water itself...
Water is the means selected by God... It is not the water itself...
JaC – You did an excellent job with your last –2 posts!! Keep it up!! It does not get any plainer! And please notice that no one can answer the points being presented.
<<<<>>>>
Ian said “Absolutely. In fact Holy Spirit baptism INTO Christ is salvation.”
Indeed! Not one of the scriptures he offered confirms this belief! No scripture can be offered that shows anyone, anytime being baptized into Christ with HS baptism! Let us examine each scripture he offered.
Jhn 1:33 – This passage says nothing about WHO will receive HS baptism or WHAT is is for.
1 Cor. 12:13 – To say this passage refers to HS baptism is INCONSISTENT with Paul’s preaching and practice. Paul tells us by the HS (His direction by the word) we are (water) baptized into the body – the church.
Jhn 1:12 – To be born of God is to do what God says to do to be “born” of Him.
Jhn 3:3-6 – To be “born again” involves “water” AND “the Spirit”. TWO agents are required to bring about the new birth.
Jhn 16:13-14 – Jesus sent the HS to the apostles to guide them into all truth. Part of the truth that the HS guided them into was – “Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins…” This glorifies Jesus – it is His baptism.
Act 10:47 – Cornelius received the HS as a “sign” to confirm to the Jews that Gentiles were also to be recipients of “grace unto life”. After the HS performed this miracle to confirm that teaching, Peter COMMANDED them to be WATER baptized in the name of Jesus – which of course, is FOR the remission of sins. HS baptism did not SAVE Cornelius – water baptism did! HS baptism saves no one – that is not what it is for!
These verses show:
1. That to be “born again” – it requires TWO agents – water and the Spirit.
2. That by the direction of the HS (through the word) we are baptized into Christ.
3. That HS baptism is not for remission of sins –or- to receive salvation.
4. That those receiving water baptism has no relationship with those who receive HS baptism – and the reasons for each baptism is different.
5. That remission of sins and therefore new birth/life starts at the point of baptism.
6. That those who gladly received the WORD (Acts 2:41) were baptized.
7. That water baptism is commanded and penitent believers are baptized INTO the body – which is the church – the saved.
8. That the Holy Spirit, through the WORD (which was spoken at Pentecost & to Cornelius) provides man with what he should do to appropriate the salvation offered by God’s grace to sinners. The HS has revealed in the word that belief, repentance, confession, and water baptism brings one to the point of salvation.
I think that the visible manifestation of the Holy Spirit on Cornelius & at Pentecost was a miracle to confirm the word spoken on both occasions – the word that told all parties involved on both occasions what they must do to be saved!
It is not the water itself that saves. The water does not regenerate anything!
Water baptism is the means God selected through which man appropriates the salvation He offers by His grace to man.
Water is the means selected by God... It is not the water itself...
JaC – You did an excellent job with your last –2 posts!! Keep it up!! It does not get any plainer! And please notice that no one can answer the points being presented.
<<<<>>>>
Ian said “Absolutely. In fact Holy Spirit baptism INTO Christ is salvation.”
Indeed! Not one of the scriptures he offered confirms this belief! No scripture can be offered that shows anyone, anytime being baptized into Christ with HS baptism! Let us examine each scripture he offered.
Jhn 1:33 – This passage says nothing about WHO will receive HS baptism or WHAT is is for.
1 Cor. 12:13 – To say this passage refers to HS baptism is INCONSISTENT with Paul’s preaching and practice. Paul tells us by the HS (His direction by the word) we are (water) baptized into the body – the church.
Jhn 1:12 – To be born of God is to do what God says to do to be “born” of Him.
Jhn 3:3-6 – To be “born again” involves “water” AND “the Spirit”. TWO agents are required to bring about the new birth.
Jhn 16:13-14 – Jesus sent the HS to the apostles to guide them into all truth. Part of the truth that the HS guided them into was – “Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins…” This glorifies Jesus – it is His baptism.
Act 10:47 – Cornelius received the HS as a “sign” to confirm to the Jews that Gentiles were also to be recipients of “grace unto life”. After the HS performed this miracle to confirm that teaching, Peter COMMANDED them to be WATER baptized in the name of Jesus – which of course, is FOR the remission of sins. HS baptism did not SAVE Cornelius – water baptism did! HS baptism saves no one – that is not what it is for!
These verses show:
1. That to be “born again” – it requires TWO agents – water and the Spirit.
2. That by the direction of the HS (through the word) we are baptized into Christ.
3. That HS baptism is not for remission of sins –or- to receive salvation.
4. That those receiving water baptism has no relationship with those who receive HS baptism – and the reasons for each baptism is different.
5. That remission of sins and therefore new birth/life starts at the point of baptism.
6. That those who gladly received the WORD (Acts 2:41) were baptized.
7. That water baptism is commanded and penitent believers are baptized INTO the body – which is the church – the saved.
8. That the Holy Spirit, through the WORD (which was spoken at Pentecost & to Cornelius) provides man with what he should do to appropriate the salvation offered by God’s grace to sinners. The HS has revealed in the word that belief, repentance, confession, and water baptism brings one to the point of salvation.
I think that the visible manifestation of the Holy Spirit on Cornelius & at Pentecost was a miracle to confirm the word spoken on both occasions – the word that told all parties involved on both occasions what they must do to be saved!
It is not the water itself that saves. The water does not regenerate anything!
Water baptism is the means God selected through which man appropriates the salvation He offers by His grace to man.
Evangelion
New member
Ouch! The HS baptisers have really copped a shellacking today!
Luke 3:16-John answered them all, "I BAPTIZE you with water, But one more powerful than I will come.....He will BAPTIZE you with fire."
Matthew 3:16-"As soon as Jesus was BAPTIZED, he went up out of the water."
[Emphasis mine]
See also Mark 1:9-11, Luke 3:21-22, John 1:31-34
Looks like baptism is part of the Gospel to me. Jesus is our ultimate example, and HE WAS BAPTIZED.
JustAChristian
New member
The most misunderstood person in the Bible, I believe, is the Holy Spirit. I want you to understand for sure that the Holy Spirit is a person. He is not an "it" or a "thing", He is a person of Deity, and is called the Holy Ghost in the King James Version (Mt. 3:11), and "Spirit" in the first letter to Timothy (1 Tim 4:1). We see him called "the Spirit of God" in (1 Cor 6:11). Likewise he is called the "Spirit of Christ" (Rom. 8:9). Each name depicts a characteristic at the time expressed, and should not be construed to be different Spirits. The American Standard and other translations almost exclusively use the term "Spirit" instead of "Ghost" which I am told is an old English term for guest, as a guest we would have at our homes. The Holy Ghost would then be a guest within us as we are or become the temple of the Holy Ghost ( 1 Cor. 6:19).
As a Spirit person, he has the ability to do things that a person, as we know it, can do. Among these is the ability to know, "...even so, the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:11). He can know because He has a mind, "And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit..."( Rom. 8:27). The Bible says that the Holy Spirit did things as He wished. He had the ability to dispense various gifts as He willed" (1 Cor 12: 4-11). He has the characteristic of love (Rom. 15:30). The Bible says that " the Spirit speaketh expressly. He spoke on one occasion to Philip the evangelist (Act 8:29).He bears witness. Jesus, on one occasion said that "...he shall testify of me" (Jn.15:26). He has the ability to intercede in prayer for us, for the Bible says, "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself (himself; the better translation), maketh intercession for us with groanings, which cannot be uttered" (Rom.26). Some hold that the Holy Spirit is but a force, but let me further assure you that He is not just a force, but a person that can be grieved (Eph 4:30). People try to deceive the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:30). He can be blasphemed (Mk 3:29), and He may be insulted (Heb. 10:29). These are things which a force cannot do or receive.
In the building up of the church in the first century, the work of the Holy Spirit was to lead the apostles and preachers of Christ to prevent them from going astray in their preaching and writing. The Bible says, "But when they deliver you up take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you (Mt. 10:19,20). The apostle John in his gospel relays what Jesus taught saying, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself: but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come" (Jn. 16:13).
The Bible speaks of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and a lot of misunderstanding comes for a lack of proper study on this study. John the Baptist, on an occasion addressed an audience saying "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire" (Mt. 3:11) We see in the Bible, that the Apostles on the first Pentecost after Christ's resurrection, (Acts 2:1-4), and the household of Cornelius (Acts 10:44-47) were the only ones to be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Today, there is but one baptism, in water (Eph 4:4-5). The Holy Spirit does not act independent of the word of God (John 6:63). He guides by the written word (John 20:31). He convicts man of sin by God's word (John 16:8). He does not cleanse man of sin. His work is to do the will of the Father. When the Bible says that "by one Spirit we are baptized into one body", The Holy Spirit is doing the will of the Father is organization. He is not cleansing but organizing. The bible says:
"But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Romans 6:17-18). When a person obeys from the heart the delivered doctrine (the gospel) he is made free of sin. He can not obey from the heart Holy Spirit Baptism so Holy Spirit Baptism is not the substance that cleanses. Need I really have to say anymore?
JustAChristian
HopeofGlory
New member
ISRAEL'S BAPTISM
Christ Jesus preached the kingdom message to Israel (the circumcision) and he chose the twelve to deliver it but He instructed them to not go to the Gentiles.
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles (uncircumcision), and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: Matt. 10:5 (KJV)
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matt. 10:6 (KJV)
Clearly the circumcision (Jewish) message Peter preached was not to be delivered to the uncircumcision (Gentiles)or was Jesus wrong?
The gospel of the kingdom beginning with John the Baptist (Matt 3:2) was a message to be given only to Israel as God’s chosen people. This circumcision only message prepared the nation of Israel as priests before the cross and Christ commanded it was not to be delivered to Gentiles.
Water baptism was a ritual in the sense that is was a required act for religious benefit. Under the law this ordinance (required work) can clearly be seen in “old” testament rituals where the priest were made clean to receive the sacrifice. To say it was old testament simply means it was before the new testament for remission (Matt. 26:28) was given by Christ. This old testament rite was the declaration of John the Baptist (Mark 1:4) and it is the same as Peter's Pentecostal message (Acts 2:38) both were a “baptism of repentance for the remission of sins“.
In the ritual of sacrifice the priest were fully wet (not sprinkled) or "baptized" in water. This rite of cleansing removed sin and prepared them to receive the sacrifice. The priest would take of the sacrifical “blood” and "sprinkle" it on the people. The application of the blood was the most important part. Water baptism immersion is not a sign of the blood being sprinkled and they are clearly two different elements in the same ritual.
Israel's understanding of water baptism was that it "washed away their sins" even after the cross.
And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, Acts 22:12 (KJV)
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16 (KJV)
Notice the below scripture is unto the children of Israel and if ye “obey” my voice you will be a kingdom of priest and it is clear John the Baptist was that voice crying in the wilderness.
Now therefore, if ye will obey my "voice" indeed, and keep my (Mosaic) covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: Ex. 19:5 (KJV)
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. Ex. 19:6 (KJV)
The "voice" of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Mark 1:3 (KJV)
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Mark 1:4 (KJV)
The twelve were instructed in this circumcision message under the law and were commanded to “Go not into the way of the Gentiles“ but only to “the house of Israel”.
After the cross the apostles are now commanded to ....Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mark 16:15 (KJV)
Why the change from.....Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: Matt. 10:5 (KJV)
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. Heb. 9:16 (KJV)
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Heb. 9:17 (KJV)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
After the cross the new testament for remission of sins was now in force and it superceded the old testament for remission in water baptism. The new testament message was to be delivered to all the world.
Before the cross Israel was still bound to ordinances for remission. The cross removed the ordinance of water baptism for remission.....Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col. 2:14 (KJV)
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Heb. 6:1 (KJV)
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb. 6:2 (KJV)
And this will we do, if God permit. Heb. 6:3 (KJV)
Before the new testament sin remission also required endurance to the end. The new testament (Matt 26:28) with a better testimony (John 5:36) granted eternal life (John 6:54) and was only effectual after the cross (Heb. 9:17).
Before the cross salvation was only found in ordinances of the law and the Gentiles were without the law (Rom. 2:14) contained in the old testimony for sin remission. Righteousness at that time had to be received under the ordinances contained in the law (Rom. 2:26) simply because the new testament had no strength until after the death of Christ.
Peter's Pentecostal message for remission was not the new testament (Matt 26:28) and his message (Acts 2:38) was not meant to be delivered to uncircumcised Gentiles who were without the law. The apostles were teachings the same message after the cross (Acts. 2:38) as the Baptist was before the cross (Mark 1:4). Therefore the apostles at Pentecost did not teach (Matt. 26:28).
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Mark 1:4 (KJV)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38 (KJV)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
Two witnesses! Matt 26:28 superceded Acts 2:38.
But I have a greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. John 5:37 (KJV)
Christ's gave us the "NEW" testament in His blood "for" remission of sins. This is a simple fact that can not be reasoned away with false analogies. Signs are a shadow of things to come and are of no use after the real things are manifested. To say we still need water baptism is no different than to say we still need circumcision of the flesh. Water baptism "for" remission of sins (old testament) was a mere shadow of faith in His shed blood for remission of sins (new testament). Some would have us believe water baptism is a sign of the applied blood of Christ but this is clearly not the case. This confusion is found in those who sprinkle instead of immerse in water because the high priest sprinkled when he applied the blood.
Israel was God's chosen people to deliver the message of His sacrifical blood for remission to the world. We will look in vain for that message at Pentecost.
Christ died for our sins and it is through the shedding of His blood that all who have faith in God’s witness are born again by the Spirit of Christ. The Pentecostal message of water baptism is void of the power of God that Christ “died for our sins” and through “faith in His blood” our sins are remitted. This bloodless gospel for remission fulfilled this prophetic scripture.....Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. Isa. 60:15 (KJV)
Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. Isa. 60:16 (KJV)
God called Paul to apply the blood of our Sacrifice for remission and this message would be received freely by the Gentiles because they were without the law.
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. Acts 13:46 (KJV)
Paul is the first man to deliver the new testament proclaiming righteousness without the ordinances (ritual of water baptism) of the law.
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say at this time , his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom. 3:28 (KJV)
Before this time they were justified through ordinances of the law such as the ritual of water baptism and animal sacrifices! Now through the new testament (Matt 26:28) their righteous obedience to ordinances of the law were no longer accepted and it was replaced by the righteousness of Christ by His obedience to the cross.
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: Rom. 5:20 (KJV)
Water baptism was obeyed "for" remission of sins under the law and it can not be argued to the contrary unless you choose to go against clear biblical teaching. "If" indeed faith in His shed blood in the "new" testament now gives remission of sins and His death done away with the law then we can conclude the "old" testament "for" remission of sins has indeed been superceded by the "new".
The death of Christ was not taught as the means "for" remission at Pentecost but obeying in water baptism "for" remission was commanded. The main point here is those at Pentecost had to be water baptized to be saved and that was a clear message....Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that OBEY him. Acts 5:32 (KJV)
Clearly two different messages for sin remission were preached! The circumcision message was only to Israel of the law and the uncircumcision to Gentiles who were without the law.
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; Gal. 2:7 (KJV)
(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles Gal. 2:8 (KJV)
Jesus instructed the apostles to go to the world “after” the new testament for remission (Matt. 26:28) was given and He did not instruct them to WATER baptism.
There is only one baptism (Spirit) not two and through the practice of water baptism many are deceived and have accepted it for remission of sins and in this fact alone we must realize the error of man’s witness which is not God’s.
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph. 4:5 (KJV)
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Eph. 4:6 (KJV)
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil (Mosaic) untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. 2 Cor. 3:14 (KJV)
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. Heb. 10:9 (KJV)
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Heb. 10:10 (KJV)
Therefore if any man be IN CHRIST, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17 (KJV)
Old things (old testament) are passed away and all things are new (new testament).
We know what is truth by the gospel that came forth from the very lips of Christ our Saviour.
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom. Matt. 26:29 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
Christ Jesus preached the kingdom message to Israel (the circumcision) and he chose the twelve to deliver it but He instructed them to not go to the Gentiles.
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles (uncircumcision), and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: Matt. 10:5 (KJV)
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matt. 10:6 (KJV)
Clearly the circumcision (Jewish) message Peter preached was not to be delivered to the uncircumcision (Gentiles)or was Jesus wrong?
The gospel of the kingdom beginning with John the Baptist (Matt 3:2) was a message to be given only to Israel as God’s chosen people. This circumcision only message prepared the nation of Israel as priests before the cross and Christ commanded it was not to be delivered to Gentiles.
Water baptism was a ritual in the sense that is was a required act for religious benefit. Under the law this ordinance (required work) can clearly be seen in “old” testament rituals where the priest were made clean to receive the sacrifice. To say it was old testament simply means it was before the new testament for remission (Matt. 26:28) was given by Christ. This old testament rite was the declaration of John the Baptist (Mark 1:4) and it is the same as Peter's Pentecostal message (Acts 2:38) both were a “baptism of repentance for the remission of sins“.
In the ritual of sacrifice the priest were fully wet (not sprinkled) or "baptized" in water. This rite of cleansing removed sin and prepared them to receive the sacrifice. The priest would take of the sacrifical “blood” and "sprinkle" it on the people. The application of the blood was the most important part. Water baptism immersion is not a sign of the blood being sprinkled and they are clearly two different elements in the same ritual.
Israel's understanding of water baptism was that it "washed away their sins" even after the cross.
And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, Acts 22:12 (KJV)
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16 (KJV)
Notice the below scripture is unto the children of Israel and if ye “obey” my voice you will be a kingdom of priest and it is clear John the Baptist was that voice crying in the wilderness.
Now therefore, if ye will obey my "voice" indeed, and keep my (Mosaic) covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: Ex. 19:5 (KJV)
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. Ex. 19:6 (KJV)
The "voice" of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Mark 1:3 (KJV)
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Mark 1:4 (KJV)
The twelve were instructed in this circumcision message under the law and were commanded to “Go not into the way of the Gentiles“ but only to “the house of Israel”.
After the cross the apostles are now commanded to ....Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mark 16:15 (KJV)
Why the change from.....Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: Matt. 10:5 (KJV)
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. Heb. 9:16 (KJV)
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Heb. 9:17 (KJV)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
After the cross the new testament for remission of sins was now in force and it superceded the old testament for remission in water baptism. The new testament message was to be delivered to all the world.
Before the cross Israel was still bound to ordinances for remission. The cross removed the ordinance of water baptism for remission.....Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col. 2:14 (KJV)
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Heb. 6:1 (KJV)
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb. 6:2 (KJV)
And this will we do, if God permit. Heb. 6:3 (KJV)
Before the new testament sin remission also required endurance to the end. The new testament (Matt 26:28) with a better testimony (John 5:36) granted eternal life (John 6:54) and was only effectual after the cross (Heb. 9:17).
Before the cross salvation was only found in ordinances of the law and the Gentiles were without the law (Rom. 2:14) contained in the old testimony for sin remission. Righteousness at that time had to be received under the ordinances contained in the law (Rom. 2:26) simply because the new testament had no strength until after the death of Christ.
Peter's Pentecostal message for remission was not the new testament (Matt 26:28) and his message (Acts 2:38) was not meant to be delivered to uncircumcised Gentiles who were without the law. The apostles were teachings the same message after the cross (Acts. 2:38) as the Baptist was before the cross (Mark 1:4). Therefore the apostles at Pentecost did not teach (Matt. 26:28).
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Mark 1:4 (KJV)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38 (KJV)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
Two witnesses! Matt 26:28 superceded Acts 2:38.
But I have a greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. John 5:37 (KJV)
Christ's gave us the "NEW" testament in His blood "for" remission of sins. This is a simple fact that can not be reasoned away with false analogies. Signs are a shadow of things to come and are of no use after the real things are manifested. To say we still need water baptism is no different than to say we still need circumcision of the flesh. Water baptism "for" remission of sins (old testament) was a mere shadow of faith in His shed blood for remission of sins (new testament). Some would have us believe water baptism is a sign of the applied blood of Christ but this is clearly not the case. This confusion is found in those who sprinkle instead of immerse in water because the high priest sprinkled when he applied the blood.
Israel was God's chosen people to deliver the message of His sacrifical blood for remission to the world. We will look in vain for that message at Pentecost.
Christ died for our sins and it is through the shedding of His blood that all who have faith in God’s witness are born again by the Spirit of Christ. The Pentecostal message of water baptism is void of the power of God that Christ “died for our sins” and through “faith in His blood” our sins are remitted. This bloodless gospel for remission fulfilled this prophetic scripture.....Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. Isa. 60:15 (KJV)
Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. Isa. 60:16 (KJV)
God called Paul to apply the blood of our Sacrifice for remission and this message would be received freely by the Gentiles because they were without the law.
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. Acts 13:46 (KJV)
Paul is the first man to deliver the new testament proclaiming righteousness without the ordinances (ritual of water baptism) of the law.
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say at this time , his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom. 3:28 (KJV)
Before this time they were justified through ordinances of the law such as the ritual of water baptism and animal sacrifices! Now through the new testament (Matt 26:28) their righteous obedience to ordinances of the law were no longer accepted and it was replaced by the righteousness of Christ by His obedience to the cross.
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: Rom. 5:20 (KJV)
Water baptism was obeyed "for" remission of sins under the law and it can not be argued to the contrary unless you choose to go against clear biblical teaching. "If" indeed faith in His shed blood in the "new" testament now gives remission of sins and His death done away with the law then we can conclude the "old" testament "for" remission of sins has indeed been superceded by the "new".
The death of Christ was not taught as the means "for" remission at Pentecost but obeying in water baptism "for" remission was commanded. The main point here is those at Pentecost had to be water baptized to be saved and that was a clear message....Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that OBEY him. Acts 5:32 (KJV)
Clearly two different messages for sin remission were preached! The circumcision message was only to Israel of the law and the uncircumcision to Gentiles who were without the law.
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; Gal. 2:7 (KJV)
(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles Gal. 2:8 (KJV)
Jesus instructed the apostles to go to the world “after” the new testament for remission (Matt. 26:28) was given and He did not instruct them to WATER baptism.
There is only one baptism (Spirit) not two and through the practice of water baptism many are deceived and have accepted it for remission of sins and in this fact alone we must realize the error of man’s witness which is not God’s.
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph. 4:5 (KJV)
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Eph. 4:6 (KJV)
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil (Mosaic) untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. 2 Cor. 3:14 (KJV)
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. Heb. 10:9 (KJV)
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Heb. 10:10 (KJV)
Therefore if any man be IN CHRIST, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17 (KJV)
Old things (old testament) are passed away and all things are new (new testament).
We know what is truth by the gospel that came forth from the very lips of Christ our Saviour.
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom. Matt. 26:29 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
JustAChristian
New member
Craig,
The Law of Moses was ended at the cross: "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Col. 2:14), yet the preaching of baptism for the remission of sins continued after the cross (Acts 2:38). It was intended for all, beginning first at Jerusalem, Judea and the uttermost parts of the earth (Luke 24:47). The whole world was to receive the same gospel. Preaching a different gospel to the Gentiles after the cross is contrary to the commission of Jesus Christ. Long Post want change simple fact. I shutter to think that someone would be so blatant to say:
There is only one baptism (Spirit) not two and through the practice of water baptism many are deceived and have accepted it for remission of sins and in this fact alone we must realize the error of man’s witness which is not God’s.
Yet, in this statement Craig says that God is a liar. Peter says that baptism saves us (1 Peter 3:15), and he was speaking of water baptism. It was the same gospel that he preached to Cornelius, and now he is preaching it many years later. The gosel never changed from the beginning. There has alway been "One Lord, One Faith, One baptism" for man to obey and it will never change until Christ returns in glory and judgement.
JustAChristian
The Law of Moses was ended at the cross: "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Col. 2:14), yet the preaching of baptism for the remission of sins continued after the cross (Acts 2:38). It was intended for all, beginning first at Jerusalem, Judea and the uttermost parts of the earth (Luke 24:47). The whole world was to receive the same gospel. Preaching a different gospel to the Gentiles after the cross is contrary to the commission of Jesus Christ. Long Post want change simple fact. I shutter to think that someone would be so blatant to say:
There is only one baptism (Spirit) not two and through the practice of water baptism many are deceived and have accepted it for remission of sins and in this fact alone we must realize the error of man’s witness which is not God’s.
Yet, in this statement Craig says that God is a liar. Peter says that baptism saves us (1 Peter 3:15), and he was speaking of water baptism. It was the same gospel that he preached to Cornelius, and now he is preaching it many years later. The gosel never changed from the beginning. There has alway been "One Lord, One Faith, One baptism" for man to obey and it will never change until Christ returns in glory and judgement.
JustAChristian
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