The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[HopeofGlory]

Two gospels!

Two gospels!

But in every nation whoever FEARS Him AND WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS is accepted by Him (Acts 10:35).

What is it that Peter fears and what is his understanding of grace?

His righteousness is of his works (water baptism) and he understands if he does not endure then comes judgment and death? Clearly we have a new testament message in the gospel Paul preached!

Paul's gospel reflects no such fear because it is....NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we have done, BUT according to his MERCY he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)

For GOD HATH NOT GIVEN US THE SPIRIT OF FEAR; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Tim. 1:7 (KJV)
Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony (Matt. 26:28) of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 2 Tim. 1:8 (KJV)
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but according to HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE , which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 2 Tim. 1:9 (KJV)
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath ABOLISHED DEATH, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 2 Tim. 1:10 (KJV)


For by ONE SPIRIT are we all BAPTIZED into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)

The one baptism (NOT TWO) is SPIRIT baptism.

One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph. 4:5 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig

 

[HopeofGlory]

Where is the new testament (his shed blood) for remission of sins preached during Pentecost or in Acts 2:38?

It's not there!

Who first preached it?

Paul!

Why?

Christ revealed it to him.

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25 (KJV)
To declare, I say, AT THIS TIME his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26 (KJV)
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Rom. 3:27 (KJV)
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom. 3:28 (KJV)

In Chrst
Craig

 

[HopeofGlory]

Is your hope in Christ or in Paul?

Not Paul and not Peter!

My hope is in Jesus Christ and His words of the new testament for remission of sins not water baptism.

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig

 

[HopeofGlory]

Where did Jesus command WATER baptism?

In Christ
Criag

 

[Kevin]

Hope,

Where did Jesus command WATER baptism?

Matthew 28:19,20

19) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

20) teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

 

[HopeofGlory]

Try again Kevin!

"Water" is not found in that verse.

In Christ
Craig

 

[HopeofGlory]

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: Matt. 10:5 (KJV)
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matt. 10:6 (KJV)

Why did Jesus tell the apostles to not go to the Gentiles?

In Christ
Craig

 

[Kevin]

Hope,

Try again Kevin!

There's no need for me to try again, I was right in the first place.

Matthew 28:19,20

19) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

20) teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.


Compare that to:


Acts 10:47-48

47) Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.


Matt 28:19-20 says to go out and baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:48 shows Gentiles commanded to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Verse 47 clearly shows water as being included (Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized).

When Philip baptized the eunuch in Acts 8 after he preached Jesus to him, it was done by going into the water and coming out of the water.


Do you think that water baptism was for the Jews only?

 

[Apollos]

HoG - I expect better of you too...

HoG - I expect better of you too...

HoG -

What ever are you doing over here out of the Dispensationalist category. There are too many students of the Bible over here for you to attempt to promote your dispy heresies. Some over here know the truth - you shall find no quarter over here.

Melody - Although we disagree on alot of things, you did well with 1 Cor. 1:17. You have the truth on water baptism!

Kevin -

It was just too easy to show that "baptism in the name of the Lord" was commanded and that it is water baptism wasn't it? Keep up the good work! Truth shall prevail! And if I may, I would like to elaborate in the follwoing post.

(But remember, it is too easy to run Craig off - so take it easy on him or he will go away.)

 

[Apollos]

Baptism "in the name of Jesus" was given AFTER the cross...

Baptism "in the name of Jesus" was given AFTER the cross...

I know most of the following is review, but some have not read it or they just did not get it the first time. It is important to repeat it, especially if the truth on water baptism is to be defended against a dispensational view. I condensed it as much as possible.

BAPTISM IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST… The only baptism authorized by Jesus ! It was for ALL nations!

Matthew 28:18-20 – “All authority has been given unto me in heaven and earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: 20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you…”ASV

In this verse Christ authorizes a NEW baptism. This baptism is “INTO THE NAME of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit”! No such baptism has been authorized before now. So when HoG said…

Water baptism from its inception before the cross was for remission of sins but we have a new message in the new testament for remission.

Well, this is just a big juicy WRONG! THIS (water) baptism is NEW and definitely AFTER the cross!!! THIS baptism was NEVER a part of the OLD covenant and it is for ALL (ethnos) nations.

When one is baptized “in the name of Jesus Christ” – they are baptized in the baptism Jesus authorized. THIS baptism “in the name of Jesus Christ” is to be “into the name of the Father, Son, and HS” !!

So when you read in Acts 2, 8, 10, &19, that someone was baptized “in the name of Jesus Christ”, you can know that they were baptized “into the name” of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit! This is the ONLY baptism authorized by Jesus Christ for man today! This baptism was revealed just prior to His ascension! This is the only ONE baptism Christ gave & commanded.

BAPTISM IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST… This is baptism in WATER!

Acts 10:47 – (Peter) “Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the HS as well as we? 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.”

In this verse we learn that baptism in the name of Jesus is IN WATER – and it is COMMANDED!!

In this verse we learn that baptism in the name of Jesus is NOT HS baptism, nor does the believer receive the HS when they are baptized in the name of Jesus.

(Do you realize that HS baptism is NEVER commanded or required?? WHAT would HS baptism be FOR – to save?? It is NEVER seen as such in the NT ! HS baptism was the result of prophesy and promise only and happened only twice.)

Acts 2:38 – Repent ye, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins: and ye shall receive the gift of the HS.”

In this verse we learn that baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is FOR the remission of sins. Those that “received the word” were baptized – 2:41- and those that were baptized were added to the saved - the church - 2:47.

The “gift” of the HS cannot be the gift of the HS himself because baptism in the name of Jesus Christ does not give one the HS nor is it HS baptism – review Acts 8:12-18.

Therefore I believe that this “gift” is the gift of salvation (via remission of sins) that the HS has now made known unto them (and to us today) via the Word that the HS has revealed to them at that time through the apostles’ preaching and to us today through the Bible. This is the “promise” that is to ALL, even those afar off – Acts 2:39.

 

[Apollos]

Why don't people realize that Jesus received ALL authority AFTER the cross??

Why don't people realize that Jesus received ALL authority AFTER the cross??

WHY did Jesus send the disciples ONLY to the Jews???

The Lord Jesus Christ said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." - Mt.15:24. Jesus said these words while He was a man on earth. Did this ever change? Was Jesus the Savior of the Jews ONLY ?? Was His blood shed for everyone ?? Didn’t He die for everyone?

1.) Christ was born under the Law of Moses (LoM) – See Gal 4:4.
2.) Christ (a Jew) was obligated to keep the LoM. He kept it perfectly – Jn. 8:29,55.
3.) Christ taught His disciples to keep the LoM?? Matthew 23:1-3
4.) Christ gave the disciples a limited commission? (Mt 10, Lk 10)
5.) BUT, the LoM was nailed to the cross? (Eph 2:15, Col 2:14, Heb 9:16,17)
6.) Christ told the (soon to be) apostles to disciple ALL nations (ethnos) and baptize them? (Mt 28:18,19)

My point is this: Although Jesus’ & the disciple’s ministry was limited to the Jews during the Messiah’s lifetime, AFTER His death and the Old Covenant being done away with/nailed to the cross (and the New Covenant in force) the disciples were FREE of any restrictions imposed by the LoM to take the gospel of the kingdom and salvation for man, to the entire “ethnos”. (It was no longer “unlawful” to go in unto a Gentile. -cf. Acts 11:3)

Jesus gave authority BEFORE His death (with the OT in effect) to go ONLY to the JEWS… but… AFTER His death (OT nailed to the cross) Jesus gave authority to the disciples to go to ALL nations! Jesus gave AUTHORITY to make disciples and baptize ALL of them! Why do you now limit the authority of the Christ?

???(Is there some reason you think Jesus could no longer “commission” or command the disciples to do something after His death???)

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: Two gospels!

Re: Two gospels!

Originally posted by HopeofGlory
But in every nation whoever FEARS Him AND WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS is accepted by Him (Acts 10:35).

What is it that Peter fears and what is his understanding of grace?

His righteousness is of his works (water baptism) and he understands if he does not endure then comes judgment and death? Clearly we have a new testament message in the gospel Paul preached!

Paul's gospel reflects no such fear because it is....NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we have done, BUT according to his MERCY he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)

For GOD HATH NOT GIVEN US THE SPIRIT OF FEAR; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Tim. 1:7 (KJV)
Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony (Matt. 26:28) of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 2 Tim. 1:8 (KJV)
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but according to HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE , which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 2 Tim. 1:9 (KJV)
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath ABOLISHED DEATH, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 2 Tim. 1:10 (KJV)


For by ONE SPIRIT are we all BAPTIZED into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)

The one baptism (NOT TWO) is SPIRIT baptism.

One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph. 4:5 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig

This man says:

1. Peter's gospel was a gospel of fear! Wow!

2. Paul's gospel was NOT a gospel of fear! Wow!

What an imagination. Which group should I be associated with, the Fearers or the Non-Fearers? How stupid!

The only people I know that hold to a 2nd gospel beside these dispensationalist, is the Mormons. Welcome to the crowd, Craig.

I'm gonna still hold onto the ONE gospel (Mark 16:15-16; Eph. 4:4-5; Gal. 1:6-10).

Peter and Paul are harmoneous on their teachings but some have "wrest the scriptures to their own distruction" (2 Peter 3:16). And when they have been shown clear and precise interpretation are "willingly ignorent" (2 Peter 3:5) of all of God's ways. It would be down right funny if it wasn't so serious.

JustAChristian

 

[Freak]

JustaChristian,

Let's go back to the basics. Is Jesus the author and finisher of your salvation?

 

[HopeofGlory]

Waterdog,

You said:
My point is this: Although Jesus’ & the disciple’s ministry was limited to the Jews during the Messiah’s lifetime, AFTER His death and the Old Covenant being done away with/nailed to the cross (and the New Covenant in force) the disciples were FREE of any restrictions imposed by the LoM to take the gospel of the kingdom and salvation for man, to the entire “ethnos”. (It was no longer “unlawful” to go in unto a Gentile. -cf. Acts 11:3)

My response:
By the way I see you're a dispensationalist in the sense that God changes His method of dealing with men salvificly.

Why then do you believe the method changed and done away with the law AND ORDINANCES (Col 2:14)(Heb 6:2)?

Why was it held from the Gentile nations before the change and why and how were Gentiles accepted before the cross?

Under the law (before the cross) what was the purpose of water baptism and how did that purpose change (after the cross) in regards to salvation?

By the way I agree with you completely that "the gospel of the kingdom" is salvation for all men. This kingdom message is not limited to Israel as the dispensational system falsely assumes and the pivotal point of the gospel is not Pauline but it is revealed in the words that Christ Jesus spoke.

In Christ
Craig

 

[HopeofGlory]

Apollos,

You recognize a change in baptism, as I do, and we disagree on interpretation of scripture, therefore we have reached different conclusions.
My method of interpretation has it's foundation built on the words that Christ Jesus spoke without adding one jot or tittle. You base your theology on the words and actions of apostles who were learning from Christ and add words to scripture that are clearly not there.
Peter is a prime example of conversion to the new message without the law and it is revealed in His later epistles. Peter did not completely understand the words of Christ at Pentecost and it is evident in his actions.
Let us concentrate only on the very words of our Saviour and enter into a discussion on the interpretation and apply His words in proper context.

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)

From these words we can see the new baptism will be with the Holy Spirit and it is contrasted with baptism in water. Clearly this is Jesus' baptism and He will do it not men.

But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)

The greater witness is the works the Father gave Him and Jesus finished them at the cross. When we believe in His finished work, Spirit baptism places us into His body, we died with Him. This is the new baptism that replaced John's water baptism that was under the law.

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt. 28:18 (KJV)
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy GhostMatt. 28:19

All power had be given to Jesus and this concerned all things but mainly the forgiveness of sins! Before this sins were remitted in the rite of baptism (Mark 1 :4) and men were given the power to perform this water baptism. Yet here all power now belongs to Christ. They are commanded to teach! Teach what? The words Jesus spoke. The word water is not found in these verses and it can not be ADDED to these verses. The meaning of these verses must be interpreted by the previous words Christ spoke with out the law.

In Christ
Craig

 

[c.moore]

Kevin you said one of your members from your church changed to a mormon, and you don`t like the mormon also for this reason.
I think maybe the reason is because of the understanding of your water baptism doctrine has something to do with your member or friend being converted into a mormon.
if they had the right understanding of the bible I believe the person would not be decieved again.
something to think about and that why I don?t like the baptism regenration beleif.

peace

 

[JustAChristian]

Lets get back on subject!

Lets get back on subject!

Originally posted by Freak
JustaChristian,

Let's go back to the basics. Is Jesus the author and finisher of your salvation?

I asked C. Moore to give me a veres that shows man can be saved by praying and you came on on the discussion. Now, since C. Moore couldn't find a verse, do you want to give it a spin?

I have shown you the words of Christ on baptism. I have given you the words of the apostles on baptism, who were reminded by the Holy Spirit what Jesus taught them. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith (Heb. 12:2). What he taught were are compelled to hear and obey (Mattahew 7 24-29)

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Craig, one of you problems is that you are predisposed to what YOU determined to be the conclusion of the gospel. You're not listening to one thing that I say. You haven't made a single attempt to discredit the essentially of baptism for salvation. You look at it as a optional physical act instead of investigating to see if it truly harmonizes with the plan of God for the world. Satan has won the victory over your soul and you're not even trying to investigate that point either. Until you are will to accept the first rule of debate which is: If you can't prove it, don't use it as argument.

Now, you asked me if Christ is the author and finisher of my salvation. What this has to do with the context of our debate, heaven only knows! Get back on the subject! Prayer will save an alian sinner or baptism is essential to salvation. Pick the tread and start sewing.

JustAChristian

 

[Melody]

Originally posted by HopeofGlory
Waterdog,

You said:
My point is this: Although Jesus’ & the disciple’s ministry was limited to the Jews during the Messiah’s lifetime, AFTER His death and the Old Covenant being done away with/nailed to the cross (and the New Covenant in force) the disciples were FREE of any restrictions imposed by the LoM to take the gospel of the kingdom and salvation for man, to the entire “ethnos”. (It was no longer “unlawful” to go in unto a Gentile. -cf. Acts 11:3)

My response:
By the way I see you're a dispensationalist in the sense that God changes His method of dealing with men salvificly.

Why then do you believe the method changed and done away with the law AND ORDINANCES (Col 2:14)(Heb 6:2)?

Why was it held from the Gentile nations before the change and why and how were Gentiles accepted before the cross?

Under the law (before the cross) what was the purpose of water baptism and how did that purpose change (after the cross) in regards to salvation?


In Christ
Craig

Under the law, repentance and baptism were for remission of sin, After the law, after the cross, all authority has been giving to Jesus and repentance and baptism {IN HIS NAME} is for remission of sins.

The Pharisees and Sadducees understood that baptism was for remission of sins that is why they could not answer Jesus because they knew that they had not obeyed.

 

[HopeofGlory]

JustAChristian

You said:
You haven't made a single attempt to discredit the essentially of baptism for salvation.

My reply:
I believe in baptism! I just don't destroy scripture by adding words to verses like you do.

Your so hung up in your fleshly works you can't judge righteously.

I have been baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ and there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks!

In Christ
Craig

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

I think maybe the reason is because of the understanding of your water baptism doctrine has something to do with your member or friend being converted into a mormon.

Courtney was converted to Mormonism simply because she was not grounded in her beliefs. She didn't study her Bible. She is somebody who is in desperate need of attention, partially due to a bad family life. Some of her friends are Mormon, and they gradually sucked her into their lies. Without Biblical knowledge, she couldn't refute their teachings. She took their word for it and accepted it as truth.

Courtney became a Mormon due to her lack of knowledge, not because the Bible teaches the necessity of baptism. She will follow those who give her the most attention.