The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
JustAChristian
New member
Is John the Baptist's Baptism Valid Today?
Is John the Baptist's Baptism Valid Today?
Thank you for your encouragement, Kevin.
I thought I would post now a lesson on the baptism of John the baptizer. Many people are confused on this subject. I hope it will give insight to those that read this post.
The Bible teaches that John was sent by God to "baptize with water" (John 1:33). "And I knew Him not: but He that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, the same is He which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost." Hence, the baptism of John was of divine origin; it was from heaven and not from men (Matt. 21:23-27). John’s baptism was "for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4; Matt. 3:6). It was to prepare a people to meet the Lord at his appearing (Mark 1:4).
Of course, the notable exception to this rule is the record of John baptizing Jesus. Although John had baptized all who went out to him from Jerusalem, Judea, and all the region about the Jordan (Matt. 3:5), he balked at the request of Jesus to be baptized. He said, "I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?" If Jesus had been a sinner like everyone else whom John had baptized, he would not have hesitated to baptize Him. But John knew that Jesus did not need remission of sins. Therefore, he tried to forbid Jesus from being baptized.
Jesus informed John that His desire to be baptized was not for remission of sins, but rather, to "fulfill all righteousness" (Matt. 3:15). According to Psalm 119:172, all of God’s commandments are righteousness. Therefore, to say that Jesus wanted to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness, is to say that Jesus desired to obey each and every requirement of the Father. To reject the "baptism which John preached" (Acts 10:37) was tantamount to rejecting the counsel of God (Luke 7:29-30). Accordingly, if Jesus had refused (or neglected) to be baptized, someone could have (and no doubt would have) accused Him of rejecting the counsel of God. Secondly, John baptized Jesus in order to manifest him to the Jews (John 1:31). Thus we understand his reason of baptizing Jesus.
The question of the duration of John’s baptism is settled decisively by Scripture. In Acts 18, we read of an outstanding orator and student of the Scriptures named Apollos. However, despite his tremendous ability and knowledge of the Scriptures, there was one glaring deficiency: he knew only the baptism of John (Acts 18:25). Aquila and Priscilla quickly corrected this deficiency by expounding "unto him the way of God more perfectly" (Acts 18:26). It is apparent that the baptism of John was no longer regarded as a valid baptism at this point and time.
Confirming this fact is the incident which occurred between Paul and the twelve men from Ephesus, recorded in Acts 19:1-7. When Paul met these men he asked them whether they had received the Holy Spirit since they believed. Their response was that they had not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Spirit (Acts 19:2). Perplexed by their reply, Paul inquired, "Unto what then were ye baptized?" and they answered, "Unto John’s baptism" (Acts 19:3). Paul responded, "John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus" (Acts 19:4). Upon hearing this, the twelve men were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (Acts 19:5; Matt. 28:18-20). When we understand that the baptism that we were baptized with is not for the purpose found in the Bible, then we are duty bound to correct it before it is eternally to late.
Apparently, these men had been baptized with John’s baptism after it had ceased to be valid. Paul’s statement in Acts 19:4 makes it quite clear that John’s baptism was an anticipatory baptism, that is to say, it was designed to anticipate the coming Christ and the coming kingdom. However, after Christ had come, and His kingdom had been established, there was no need to anticipate his coming and the establishment of the church; therefore John’s baptism was made null and void after the baptism of the great commission went into force. John’s baptism was for the Jews only. On the other hand, the baptism that will last to the end of the Christian age is for "every creature" (Mark 16:15-16) and "all nations" (Matt. 28:19-20).
JustAChristian
Is John the Baptist's Baptism Valid Today?
Kevin said:
Thank you for your encouragement, Kevin.
I thought I would post now a lesson on the baptism of John the baptizer. Many people are confused on this subject. I hope it will give insight to those that read this post.
The Bible teaches that John was sent by God to "baptize with water" (John 1:33). "And I knew Him not: but He that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, the same is He which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost." Hence, the baptism of John was of divine origin; it was from heaven and not from men (Matt. 21:23-27). John’s baptism was "for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4; Matt. 3:6). It was to prepare a people to meet the Lord at his appearing (Mark 1:4).
Of course, the notable exception to this rule is the record of John baptizing Jesus. Although John had baptized all who went out to him from Jerusalem, Judea, and all the region about the Jordan (Matt. 3:5), he balked at the request of Jesus to be baptized. He said, "I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?" If Jesus had been a sinner like everyone else whom John had baptized, he would not have hesitated to baptize Him. But John knew that Jesus did not need remission of sins. Therefore, he tried to forbid Jesus from being baptized.
Jesus informed John that His desire to be baptized was not for remission of sins, but rather, to "fulfill all righteousness" (Matt. 3:15). According to Psalm 119:172, all of God’s commandments are righteousness. Therefore, to say that Jesus wanted to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness, is to say that Jesus desired to obey each and every requirement of the Father. To reject the "baptism which John preached" (Acts 10:37) was tantamount to rejecting the counsel of God (Luke 7:29-30). Accordingly, if Jesus had refused (or neglected) to be baptized, someone could have (and no doubt would have) accused Him of rejecting the counsel of God. Secondly, John baptized Jesus in order to manifest him to the Jews (John 1:31). Thus we understand his reason of baptizing Jesus.
The question of the duration of John’s baptism is settled decisively by Scripture. In Acts 18, we read of an outstanding orator and student of the Scriptures named Apollos. However, despite his tremendous ability and knowledge of the Scriptures, there was one glaring deficiency: he knew only the baptism of John (Acts 18:25). Aquila and Priscilla quickly corrected this deficiency by expounding "unto him the way of God more perfectly" (Acts 18:26). It is apparent that the baptism of John was no longer regarded as a valid baptism at this point and time.
Confirming this fact is the incident which occurred between Paul and the twelve men from Ephesus, recorded in Acts 19:1-7. When Paul met these men he asked them whether they had received the Holy Spirit since they believed. Their response was that they had not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Spirit (Acts 19:2). Perplexed by their reply, Paul inquired, "Unto what then were ye baptized?" and they answered, "Unto John’s baptism" (Acts 19:3). Paul responded, "John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus" (Acts 19:4). Upon hearing this, the twelve men were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (Acts 19:5; Matt. 28:18-20). When we understand that the baptism that we were baptized with is not for the purpose found in the Bible, then we are duty bound to correct it before it is eternally to late.
Apparently, these men had been baptized with John’s baptism after it had ceased to be valid. Paul’s statement in Acts 19:4 makes it quite clear that John’s baptism was an anticipatory baptism, that is to say, it was designed to anticipate the coming Christ and the coming kingdom. However, after Christ had come, and His kingdom had been established, there was no need to anticipate his coming and the establishment of the church; therefore John’s baptism was made null and void after the baptism of the great commission went into force. John’s baptism was for the Jews only. On the other hand, the baptism that will last to the end of the Christian age is for "every creature" (Mark 16:15-16) and "all nations" (Matt. 28:19-20).
JustAChristian
Why was Jesus baptised ????
Why was Jesus baptised ????
JAC,
Jesus was surely perfectly righteous in himself. I believe his baptism at the age of 30 was his baptism/ceremonial washing as priest. His anointing was by the Holy Spirit. (cf Num. 4, 8, Ex. 30)
When he was challenged regarding his authority to cleanse the temple, Jesus referred to his baptism. (Matt. 21, 2 Kings 23)
Thus he was the only King anointed as priest, after the order of Melchisedek. (Heb. 7)
No earthly kings were allowed the priestly office. (Saul & Uzziah & others were condemned for usurping the sacred office.) Yet God said to Moses of the people:
Exd 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [how] I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Christ as King & Great High Priest opened the way for his people to be joint heirs with him, as kings & priests:
1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
.
THe 12 were rebaptised because they were not rightly baptised. They did not know that John taught of Jesus, who would come after, & baptise with the Holy SPirit. We don't read of Apollos being rebaptised. He was fervent in the Holy Spirit. Nor do we read of the apostles being rebaptised.
Why was Jesus baptised ????
JAC,
Jesus was surely perfectly righteous in himself. I believe his baptism at the age of 30 was his baptism/ceremonial washing as priest. His anointing was by the Holy Spirit. (cf Num. 4, 8, Ex. 30)
When he was challenged regarding his authority to cleanse the temple, Jesus referred to his baptism. (Matt. 21, 2 Kings 23)
Thus he was the only King anointed as priest, after the order of Melchisedek. (Heb. 7)
No earthly kings were allowed the priestly office. (Saul & Uzziah & others were condemned for usurping the sacred office.) Yet God said to Moses of the people:
Exd 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [how] I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Christ as King & Great High Priest opened the way for his people to be joint heirs with him, as kings & priests:
1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
.
THe 12 were rebaptised because they were not rightly baptised. They did not know that John taught of Jesus, who would come after, & baptise with the Holy SPirit. We don't read of Apollos being rebaptised. He was fervent in the Holy Spirit. Nor do we read of the apostles being rebaptised.
JustAChristian
New member
Re: Why was Jesus baptised ????
Re: Why was Jesus baptised ????
Ian,
Melchisedek was a King and a Priest (Gen. 14:18). As for those who were rebaptized, the Bible does not mention every incident of every person, but it does give us everything unto life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3). Paul show a situation when rebaptism was essential. We move from that to accept the fact that whenever we see that the purpose for our baptism is not according to life and godliness, then we need to be reimmersed. Baptism involves believing and confessing Christ as the Son of God (Acts 8:37). It involves repentence (Acts 2:38). It involves the spiritual washing away of sins and remission of sins (Acts 22:16; 2:38). When this has not been done by the candidate, such as in the case of infant sprinkling, then baptism or rebaptism would be in order.
We do read about Apollos being taught more perfectly (Acts 18:26). It is not shown if he apostles ever argued among themselves if his baptism was scriptural. Frankly, I have never seen any debate whether his baptism was scriptural or not. Maybe we aught to take a lesson from that. If it is in the right form for the right purpose it aught to stand. The form is immersion and the purpose is for the remission of sins. Anything short of that is being very presumptious on ones part, don't you agree?
JustAChristian
Re: Why was Jesus baptised ????
Ian Day said:
Ian,
Melchisedek was a King and a Priest (Gen. 14:18). As for those who were rebaptized, the Bible does not mention every incident of every person, but it does give us everything unto life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3). Paul show a situation when rebaptism was essential. We move from that to accept the fact that whenever we see that the purpose for our baptism is not according to life and godliness, then we need to be reimmersed. Baptism involves believing and confessing Christ as the Son of God (Acts 8:37). It involves repentence (Acts 2:38). It involves the spiritual washing away of sins and remission of sins (Acts 22:16; 2:38). When this has not been done by the candidate, such as in the case of infant sprinkling, then baptism or rebaptism would be in order.
We do read about Apollos being taught more perfectly (Acts 18:26). It is not shown if he apostles ever argued among themselves if his baptism was scriptural. Frankly, I have never seen any debate whether his baptism was scriptural or not. Maybe we aught to take a lesson from that. If it is in the right form for the right purpose it aught to stand. The form is immersion and the purpose is for the remission of sins. Anything short of that is being very presumptious on ones part, don't you agree?
JustAChristian
Last edited:
servantofChrist
New member
Well said "JustAChristian."
Regarding whether an individual needs to be rebaptized, what really underlies this is the authority of the word of Christ, and our total acknowledgement of it and obedience to it.
The New Testament is an all-or-nothing thing. Whatever portions of it are binding on us - they are all equally binding on us. If we look into the N. T. to see what it teaches us, not only by explicit command or instruction, but by way of example as well, then we must ascribe equal authority to ALL of the teachings and examples that it binds on us, for all of them have been given by the inspiration and authority of God.
In Acts 2, the historic occasion of the first gospel message ever delivered, the multitude there stood condemned before God because of unforgiven sins. Suppose the Holy Spirit had chosen to merely command them to "Repent and be baptized...in the name of Jesus Christ," and then ended His words there. Those 2 commands would have been just as binding upon all who were thus commanded. But there is another element that enters the picture. God not only told them what to do ("Repent and be baptized"), He also told them what it was for - "for the forgiveness of your sins...."
This means that it was the will of our Father that we know exactly and specifically what repentance and baptism are for. And this means that if we were baptized for another (different) purpose, such as joining a church, believing that one's sins had already been forgiven before baptism, then this person has not been baptized according to the authority and will of God, and needs to be rebaptized for the express purpose stated in Acts 2:38 - Acts 2 being the ARCHETYPE, or CASE EXAMPLE, of all future gospel messages preached to those who have never been saved.
Even being baptized in another name than "the name of Jesus Christ" necessitates that one be baptized again, as the example of Acts 19:1-5 so clearly shows.
If one believes that a person need not be rebaptized who was baptized in a manner, or for a reason/purpose, not according to Acts 2:38 (which also implies by further study that this baptism is a burial (immersion) in water (Rom. 6:3, Col. 2:12), then there is really no basis for citing Biblical authority to guide or govern any thing one does religiously.
It all goes together, one way or the other: if we acknowledge the authority of God's word to govern and guide us, then we must accept ALL that it binds on us. No wonder the Lord Jesus said, "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do WHAT I SAY?" (Lk. 6:46) Meaning, we do NOT really acknowledge Him as "Lord" if we do not align our religious/spiritual beliefs and practices with His word, and that alone. Indeed, this is the true test of our discipleship - "IF YOU ABIDE IN MY WORD, then you are TRULY disciples of Mine" (Jno. 8:31).
Regarding whether an individual needs to be rebaptized, what really underlies this is the authority of the word of Christ, and our total acknowledgement of it and obedience to it.
The New Testament is an all-or-nothing thing. Whatever portions of it are binding on us - they are all equally binding on us. If we look into the N. T. to see what it teaches us, not only by explicit command or instruction, but by way of example as well, then we must ascribe equal authority to ALL of the teachings and examples that it binds on us, for all of them have been given by the inspiration and authority of God.
In Acts 2, the historic occasion of the first gospel message ever delivered, the multitude there stood condemned before God because of unforgiven sins. Suppose the Holy Spirit had chosen to merely command them to "Repent and be baptized...in the name of Jesus Christ," and then ended His words there. Those 2 commands would have been just as binding upon all who were thus commanded. But there is another element that enters the picture. God not only told them what to do ("Repent and be baptized"), He also told them what it was for - "for the forgiveness of your sins...."
This means that it was the will of our Father that we know exactly and specifically what repentance and baptism are for. And this means that if we were baptized for another (different) purpose, such as joining a church, believing that one's sins had already been forgiven before baptism, then this person has not been baptized according to the authority and will of God, and needs to be rebaptized for the express purpose stated in Acts 2:38 - Acts 2 being the ARCHETYPE, or CASE EXAMPLE, of all future gospel messages preached to those who have never been saved.
Even being baptized in another name than "the name of Jesus Christ" necessitates that one be baptized again, as the example of Acts 19:1-5 so clearly shows.
If one believes that a person need not be rebaptized who was baptized in a manner, or for a reason/purpose, not according to Acts 2:38 (which also implies by further study that this baptism is a burial (immersion) in water (Rom. 6:3, Col. 2:12), then there is really no basis for citing Biblical authority to guide or govern any thing one does religiously.
It all goes together, one way or the other: if we acknowledge the authority of God's word to govern and guide us, then we must accept ALL that it binds on us. No wonder the Lord Jesus said, "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do WHAT I SAY?" (Lk. 6:46) Meaning, we do NOT really acknowledge Him as "Lord" if we do not align our religious/spiritual beliefs and practices with His word, and that alone. Indeed, this is the true test of our discipleship - "IF YOU ABIDE IN MY WORD, then you are TRULY disciples of Mine" (Jno. 8:31).
c.moore
New member
I think I have ask this question before but I couldn`t find the answer to the question so maybe someone can help me to understand about this water baptism salvation doctrine.
After this I will stop posting on theologyonline because I see many just don`t want to recieve the truth but what I found out by many that they know both side already of the gospel and that all God wants you to know and it the person choice to believe what is right and wrong and to at least hear the truth so when they stand before the judgement seat of Christ you all can`t never say no one has never told me the truth.I thank God for TOL because both side of the gospel is mention which I call the flip flop gospel ,or bible understanding and interpretation.
the flip flop is to read the bible in what it is really saying and then read the bible in what it is not saying, and I see this TOL is really a flip flop web site, and I thank God that there is people like Freak, Justin, and many other that really know the truth and they have the time to debate and fight about the good news , and the grace of God. I love people like HIS-SAVING-GRACE , Kiwic ,Kevin , Carri that are on the other side of the flip flop that take the time to give thier views and opinion ,So after I have this answer of this question for the mormons I will stop Theologyonline because God has reveal this scripture more strongly to me 1Tm:1:4: Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
I already know the truth of the gospel so I will spead my time telling those who are hungry for the gospel and the truth.
I know there is a evil spirit of debating and I what to get out of it.
Well I think I said enough so let me go on with my last question on water salvation baptism.
If a person strongly believe that Jesus has died on the cross, and he confessed his sins with all his heart like Ro:10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ro:10:11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Ro:10:12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Ro:10:13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Also the person plead the Blood of Jesus to WASH away all his past sins according to Ro:3:24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro:3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro:3:26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
This person finds his first Love in Jesus after beleiving in the Lord Jesus and right after he dies from an accident and didn`t get water baptize , but he did get Spiritual baptized.
The big question is will this person still go to hell because he didn`t get water baptize to wash again his sins even though the Blood of Jesus washed away all his past sin so he can be new in Christ and dead to sin?????????????
What if a person did all that I wrote above and is afraid of being dunk in water is this person bound for hell???
Can you tell a person after doing all the thing I mention before that he is still now going to hell after recieving Jesus in thier heart and that they are still a sinner and carrying all thier past sins on them even though the Blood of Jesus washed the sins.
Are they still sinful dirty before God because the Blood of Jesus was not strong enough to make them totally clean so they need the water baptism to do the final works????
If some one could be kind to answer these question I willl print out the answer for my notes and make copy for the my Mormon friends.
Thanks and God Bless
After this I will stop posting on theologyonline because I see many just don`t want to recieve the truth but what I found out by many that they know both side already of the gospel and that all God wants you to know and it the person choice to believe what is right and wrong and to at least hear the truth so when they stand before the judgement seat of Christ you all can`t never say no one has never told me the truth.I thank God for TOL because both side of the gospel is mention which I call the flip flop gospel ,or bible understanding and interpretation.
the flip flop is to read the bible in what it is really saying and then read the bible in what it is not saying, and I see this TOL is really a flip flop web site, and I thank God that there is people like Freak, Justin, and many other that really know the truth and they have the time to debate and fight about the good news , and the grace of God. I love people like HIS-SAVING-GRACE , Kiwic ,Kevin , Carri that are on the other side of the flip flop that take the time to give thier views and opinion ,So after I have this answer of this question for the mormons I will stop Theologyonline because God has reveal this scripture more strongly to me 1Tm:1:4: Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
I already know the truth of the gospel so I will spead my time telling those who are hungry for the gospel and the truth.
I know there is a evil spirit of debating and I what to get out of it.
Well I think I said enough so let me go on with my last question on water salvation baptism.
If a person strongly believe that Jesus has died on the cross, and he confessed his sins with all his heart like Ro:10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ro:10:11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Ro:10:12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Ro:10:13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Also the person plead the Blood of Jesus to WASH away all his past sins according to Ro:3:24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro:3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro:3:26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
This person finds his first Love in Jesus after beleiving in the Lord Jesus and right after he dies from an accident and didn`t get water baptize , but he did get Spiritual baptized.
The big question is will this person still go to hell because he didn`t get water baptize to wash again his sins even though the Blood of Jesus washed away all his past sin so he can be new in Christ and dead to sin?????????????
What if a person did all that I wrote above and is afraid of being dunk in water is this person bound for hell???
Can you tell a person after doing all the thing I mention before that he is still now going to hell after recieving Jesus in thier heart and that they are still a sinner and carrying all thier past sins on them even though the Blood of Jesus washed the sins.
Are they still sinful dirty before God because the Blood of Jesus was not strong enough to make them totally clean so they need the water baptism to do the final works????
If some one could be kind to answer these question I willl print out the answer for my notes and make copy for the my Mormon friends.
Thanks and God Bless
JustAChristian
New member
What does "but" mean?
What does "but" mean?
"But" is a conjuction that show strong contrast. In the Greek, it is "alla". What is your point?
JustAChristian
What does "but" mean?
c.moore said:
"But" is a conjuction that show strong contrast. In the Greek, it is "alla". What is your point?
JustAChristian
c.moore
New member
still waiting for the answer in the above post from me.
Quote by JustAChristian
"But" is a conjuction that show strong contrast. In the Greek, it is "alla". What is your point?
Quote c.moore
Just for your information; But is something that is added and can stop what was said before, or cancel what was said.
Example is When I say I forgive you, But" I will remember what you did or But" I can`t forget what you did, this is still unforgiveness.
M'r:16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
I thank God that after the" But" in Mark 16:16 believeth is mention again to show the door to salvation and the key to everlasting life and being SAVED and not damned because of Belief.
Quote by JustAChristian
"But" is a conjuction that show strong contrast. In the Greek, it is "alla". What is your point?
Quote c.moore
Just for your information; But is something that is added and can stop what was said before, or cancel what was said.
Example is When I say I forgive you, But" I will remember what you did or But" I can`t forget what you did, this is still unforgiveness.
M'r:16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
I thank God that after the" But" in Mark 16:16 believeth is mention again to show the door to salvation and the key to everlasting life and being SAVED and not damned because of Belief.
C.Moore
You said:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This person finds his first Love in Jesus after beleiving in the Lord Jesus and right after he dies from an accident and didn`t get water baptize , but he did get Spiritual baptized
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem with this whole statement is that a person is not spiritually baptized until he obeys Christ's command to be baptized in water. We get baptized (in water) for the remission of sins and then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
I would hope that God would have mercy on this person and allow him to enter into heaven. That's God's call, not mine. Unfortunatey, God has not told what will happen in this situation, so all we can go by is what He has said, this being that "he who believes and is baptized will be saved."
I'm not sure what you mean by this:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thank God for TOL because both side of the gospel is mention
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are not two sides to the gospel--there is only one gospel. Maybe you are referring to the fact that some people see and believe the whole gospel, and the others see and believe only half of it.
Its a shame how you keep going on about how you are spreading the word and we just won't listen--we refuse to see the truth. You, Freak, and others may have the truth but you don't have the whole truth. You are the ones who are not acknowledging all of God's word--just the parts that suit your purpose.
Carri
You said:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This person finds his first Love in Jesus after beleiving in the Lord Jesus and right after he dies from an accident and didn`t get water baptize , but he did get Spiritual baptized
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem with this whole statement is that a person is not spiritually baptized until he obeys Christ's command to be baptized in water. We get baptized (in water) for the remission of sins and then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
I would hope that God would have mercy on this person and allow him to enter into heaven. That's God's call, not mine. Unfortunatey, God has not told what will happen in this situation, so all we can go by is what He has said, this being that "he who believes and is baptized will be saved."
I'm not sure what you mean by this:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thank God for TOL because both side of the gospel is mention
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are not two sides to the gospel--there is only one gospel. Maybe you are referring to the fact that some people see and believe the whole gospel, and the others see and believe only half of it.
Its a shame how you keep going on about how you are spreading the word and we just won't listen--we refuse to see the truth. You, Freak, and others may have the truth but you don't have the whole truth. You are the ones who are not acknowledging all of God's word--just the parts that suit your purpose.
Carri
Last edited:
Kevin
New member
c.moore,
It's quite simple. He who believes and is baptized will be saved. These are the two, not one, two, conditions that must be met in order to be saved.
The second part of that verse says "but whoever does not believe will be condemned." As I said before, "but" means "on the contrary". If one doens't believe, he will be condemned. So, whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but on the contrary, those who do not believe will be damned. I agree with everything this verse tells me. By not believing, a person has already failed to meet one of the two requirements for salvation. If just one of those requirements is not met, then they are not saved, because Jesus said it takes two, not one. There's simply no need to mention baptism in the last part of that verse.
The problem is that your are trying to separate the two things that are mentioned for salvation (belief and baptism), and that even goes against your own definiton of the word "and"! You're trying to exclude baptism when it is "inlcuded or added" (your own words) to belief by the word "and"! You said yourself that the word "and" means "some thing included or added". In Mark 16:16 baptism IS "included or added" along with belief in the requirements for salvation. You are trying to exclude what Jesus "included" for one to be saved. Bad move c.moore.
The question is, is it a belief that is dead unto it's own, or is it a belief that is alive with works? You just don't get that. Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. You don't believe him. You are essentially saying "No Lord, you have it all wrong... you just need to believe!". You just can't accept the FACT that baptism is "included or added" (your own words) to belief in order to be saved. Why do you try to discard what Jesus clearly, and I mean clearly, "included" in the requirements to be saved?
It's quite simple. He who believes and is baptized will be saved. These are the two, not one, two, conditions that must be met in order to be saved.
The second part of that verse says "but whoever does not believe will be condemned." As I said before, "but" means "on the contrary". If one doens't believe, he will be condemned. So, whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but on the contrary, those who do not believe will be damned. I agree with everything this verse tells me. By not believing, a person has already failed to meet one of the two requirements for salvation. If just one of those requirements is not met, then they are not saved, because Jesus said it takes two, not one. There's simply no need to mention baptism in the last part of that verse.
The problem is that your are trying to separate the two things that are mentioned for salvation (belief and baptism), and that even goes against your own definiton of the word "and"! You're trying to exclude baptism when it is "inlcuded or added" (your own words) to belief by the word "and"! You said yourself that the word "and" means "some thing included or added". In Mark 16:16 baptism IS "included or added" along with belief in the requirements for salvation. You are trying to exclude what Jesus "included" for one to be saved. Bad move c.moore.
The question is, is it a belief that is dead unto it's own, or is it a belief that is alive with works? You just don't get that. Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. You don't believe him. You are essentially saying "No Lord, you have it all wrong... you just need to believe!". You just can't accept the FACT that baptism is "included or added" (your own words) to belief in order to be saved. Why do you try to discard what Jesus clearly, and I mean clearly, "included" in the requirements to be saved?
Last edited:
JustAChristian
New member
A Discourse on "But" Continues.
A Discourse on "But" Continues.
Those that hold that "Faith alone" is all that is necessary for salvation, continue to fail to establish their platform. When they say that God save without works, they are contary to what the Bible teaches. Granted, works of merit will not save, but works of obedience have great spiritual value in salvation. One needs to change his/her mind about works of God (John 6:28).
Also, many rest the manner of their salvation on the basis of "feelings". It they are elated, they believe they are forgiven. If they are discouraged, they feel they are not forgiven. A close examination though, will show that feeling can not be relied upon to establish a basis for one's salvation.
Some have expressed their feeling in the scriptures, among them was Paul who said, "Men and brethren, I have live in all good conscience before God until this day" (Acts 23:1). Again, he said, "I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth" (Acts 26:9). Although Paul had a clear conscience and was very religious, he was wrong in his conclusion based on feelings. His fight against the church was shown to be unjustified, although he felt good about it. One can not depend on feeling. Feeling good or bad carrys no weight when placed alongside obedience.
"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Proverbs 14:12).
Man made ways are ways that lead to spiritural death. Don't be caught up in it tangles. Paul (Saul) sincerely thought he was right. He felt good about it. Still, he was wrong. He was shown he was wrong and he changed. The change made all the difference in his life. Sometime we have to change our minds.
JustAChristian
A Discourse on "But" Continues.
c.moore said:
Those that hold that "Faith alone" is all that is necessary for salvation, continue to fail to establish their platform. When they say that God save without works, they are contary to what the Bible teaches. Granted, works of merit will not save, but works of obedience have great spiritual value in salvation. One needs to change his/her mind about works of God (John 6:28).
Also, many rest the manner of their salvation on the basis of "feelings". It they are elated, they believe they are forgiven. If they are discouraged, they feel they are not forgiven. A close examination though, will show that feeling can not be relied upon to establish a basis for one's salvation.
Some have expressed their feeling in the scriptures, among them was Paul who said, "Men and brethren, I have live in all good conscience before God until this day" (Acts 23:1). Again, he said, "I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth" (Acts 26:9). Although Paul had a clear conscience and was very religious, he was wrong in his conclusion based on feelings. His fight against the church was shown to be unjustified, although he felt good about it. One can not depend on feeling. Feeling good or bad carrys no weight when placed alongside obedience.
"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Proverbs 14:12).
Man made ways are ways that lead to spiritural death. Don't be caught up in it tangles. Paul (Saul) sincerely thought he was right. He felt good about it. Still, he was wrong. He was shown he was wrong and he changed. The change made all the difference in his life. Sometime we have to change our minds.
JustAChristian
Last edited:
c.moore
New member
quote
Kevin
The second part of that verse says "but whoever does not believe will be condemned." As I said before, "but" means "on the contrary". If one doens't believe, he will be condemned. So, whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but on the contrary, those who do not believe will be damned. I agree with everything this verse tells me. By not believing, a person has already failed to meet one of the two requirements for salvation.
quote
kevin
If just one of those requirements is not met, then they are not saved, because Jesus said it takes two, not one. There's simply no need to mention baptism in the last part of that verse.
Quote by c.moore
Then a person who beleiveth in all he heart that Jesus is Lord and God and he accepted the Bolld of Jesus to wash away all his past sins according to Ro:3:24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro:3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro:3:26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Ro:3:27: Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Ro:3:28: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Also he accept with all his heart that Jesus has rosed again from the grave , and this person has repented and he has a problem with joining a church for water baptism .
Is still this new born baby child of God on his way to damnation as a believer in hell Kevin????
While according to your interpretation of Mark 16:16 he did DO the second part so regardless even though the bible says only those who don`t believe is damn for hell but you change that or don`t accept that part of your verse because of the water baptism, don`t you see that is contradiction of the bible .
The bible and you admit only unbelievers go to hell and are damn
but this new born baby that is not yet water baptized is believing with all , all, his heart and spirit, ans soul on Jesus and the remission of sin of the blood of Jesus and you KEVIN can tell this person in thier face that after all your crying and humbling before Jesus and all you accepting Jesus as Lord of your life you will boldly say sorry my big sinner, you are still a sinner doom for hell and the lake of fire is still burning waiting that the angel of God to cast you in because you didn`t do the second part of Mark16;16 the dunk and dive water baptism and this is without soap but that is the real washing of your sins not the Blood of God so first get baptized and then we can talk about being SAVED, or being not damned.
Does this make sence to you Kevin because I have brought many to Christ and if I said or will do as you will do with some water BAP I wouldn`t want to tell nobody about salvation works, or I would tell them to Join the Mormons club house or temple.
I know people who was even drunk that got baptized in the mormon club because they believe baptismo is salvation , so it doesn`t matter how the person is because he is any ways a sinner before he get baptized drunk or on dope or just killed a person he is still damn so let get him or her wet and when they get dry they are SAVED, so is it by the mormons.
I do have a hard time not believing the people who think baptismo is salvation are bornagain christian , I think they are really mormons trying to get real christians to believe thier doctrine sorry but I do believe this really.
Kevin , Carri and the other please forgive me if I think this of you all no matter if you deny this but I have a problem not believing your not mormons, or elders of salt lake city that just join the TOL to see what real christians has to say about water baptism which you build you faith on and works of salvation with all yopu can do methods
Nice try you guys we know who you are, yes revealed.
bye
Kevin
The second part of that verse says "but whoever does not believe will be condemned." As I said before, "but" means "on the contrary". If one doens't believe, he will be condemned. So, whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but on the contrary, those who do not believe will be damned. I agree with everything this verse tells me. By not believing, a person has already failed to meet one of the two requirements for salvation.
quote
kevin
If just one of those requirements is not met, then they are not saved, because Jesus said it takes two, not one. There's simply no need to mention baptism in the last part of that verse.
Quote by c.moore
Then a person who beleiveth in all he heart that Jesus is Lord and God and he accepted the Bolld of Jesus to wash away all his past sins according to Ro:3:24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro:3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro:3:26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Ro:3:27: Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Ro:3:28: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Also he accept with all his heart that Jesus has rosed again from the grave , and this person has repented and he has a problem with joining a church for water baptism .
Is still this new born baby child of God on his way to damnation as a believer in hell Kevin????
While according to your interpretation of Mark 16:16 he did DO the second part so regardless even though the bible says only those who don`t believe is damn for hell but you change that or don`t accept that part of your verse because of the water baptism, don`t you see that is contradiction of the bible .
The bible and you admit only unbelievers go to hell and are damn
but this new born baby that is not yet water baptized is believing with all , all, his heart and spirit, ans soul on Jesus and the remission of sin of the blood of Jesus and you KEVIN can tell this person in thier face that after all your crying and humbling before Jesus and all you accepting Jesus as Lord of your life you will boldly say sorry my big sinner, you are still a sinner doom for hell and the lake of fire is still burning waiting that the angel of God to cast you in because you didn`t do the second part of Mark16;16 the dunk and dive water baptism and this is without soap but that is the real washing of your sins not the Blood of God so first get baptized and then we can talk about being SAVED, or being not damned.
Does this make sence to you Kevin because I have brought many to Christ and if I said or will do as you will do with some water BAP I wouldn`t want to tell nobody about salvation works, or I would tell them to Join the Mormons club house or temple.
I know people who was even drunk that got baptized in the mormon club because they believe baptismo is salvation , so it doesn`t matter how the person is because he is any ways a sinner before he get baptized drunk or on dope or just killed a person he is still damn so let get him or her wet and when they get dry they are SAVED, so is it by the mormons.
I do have a hard time not believing the people who think baptismo is salvation are bornagain christian , I think they are really mormons trying to get real christians to believe thier doctrine sorry but I do believe this really.
Kevin , Carri and the other please forgive me if I think this of you all no matter if you deny this but I have a problem not believing your not mormons, or elders of salt lake city that just join the TOL to see what real christians has to say about water baptism which you build you faith on and works of salvation with all yopu can do methods
Nice try you guys we know who you are, yes revealed.
bye
Last edited:
c.moore
New member
Hello JustAChristian
I was askin that maybe you or someone can answer these questions:
I think I have ask this question before but I couldn`t find the answer to the question so maybe someone can help me to understand about this water baptism salvation doctrine.
After this I will stop posting on theologyonline because I see many just don`t want to recieve the truth but what I found out by many that they know both side already of the gospel and that all God wants you to know and it the person choice to believe what is right and wrong and to at least hear the truth so when they stand before the judgement seat of Christ you all can`t never say no one has never told me the truth.I thank God for TOL because both side of the gospel is mention which I call the flip flop gospel ,or bible understanding and interpretation.
the flip flop is to read the bible in what it is really saying and then read the bible in what it is not saying, and I see this TOL is really a flip flop web site, and I thank God that there is people like Freak, Justin, and many other that really know the truth and they have the time to debate and fight about the good news , and the grace of God. I love people like HIS-SAVING-GRACE , Kiwic ,Kevin , Carri that are on the other side of the flip flop that take the time to give thier views and opinion ,So after I have this answer of this question for the mormons I will stop Theologyonline because God has reveal this scripture more strongly to me 1Tm:1:4: Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
I already know the truth of the gospel so I will spead my time telling those who are hungry for the gospel and the truth.
I know there is a evil spirit of debating and I what to get out of it.
Well I think I said enough so let me go on with my last question on water salvation baptism.
If a person strongly believe that Jesus has died on the cross, and he confessed his sins with all his heart like Ro:10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ro:10:11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Ro:10:12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Ro:10:13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Also the person plead the Blood of Jesus to WASH away all his past sins according to Ro:3:24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro:3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro:3:26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
This person finds his first Love in Jesus after beleiving in the Lord Jesus and right after he dies from an accident and didn`t get water baptize , but he did get Spiritual baptized.
The big question is will this person still go to hell because he didn`t get water baptize to wash again his sins even though the Blood of Jesus washed away all his past sin so he can be new in Christ and dead to sin?????????????
What if a person did all that I wrote above and is afraid of being dunk in water is this person bound for hell???
Can you tell a person after doing all the thing I mention before that he is still now going to hell after recieving Jesus in thier heart and that they are still a sinner and carrying all thier past sins on them even though the Blood of Jesus washed the sins.
Are they still sinful dirty before God because the Blood of Jesus was not strong enough to make them totally clean so they need the water baptism to do the final works????
If some one could be kind to answer these question I willl print out the answer for my notes and make copy for the my Mormon friends.
Thanks and God Bless
I was askin that maybe you or someone can answer these questions:
I think I have ask this question before but I couldn`t find the answer to the question so maybe someone can help me to understand about this water baptism salvation doctrine.
After this I will stop posting on theologyonline because I see many just don`t want to recieve the truth but what I found out by many that they know both side already of the gospel and that all God wants you to know and it the person choice to believe what is right and wrong and to at least hear the truth so when they stand before the judgement seat of Christ you all can`t never say no one has never told me the truth.I thank God for TOL because both side of the gospel is mention which I call the flip flop gospel ,or bible understanding and interpretation.
the flip flop is to read the bible in what it is really saying and then read the bible in what it is not saying, and I see this TOL is really a flip flop web site, and I thank God that there is people like Freak, Justin, and many other that really know the truth and they have the time to debate and fight about the good news , and the grace of God. I love people like HIS-SAVING-GRACE , Kiwic ,Kevin , Carri that are on the other side of the flip flop that take the time to give thier views and opinion ,So after I have this answer of this question for the mormons I will stop Theologyonline because God has reveal this scripture more strongly to me 1Tm:1:4: Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
I already know the truth of the gospel so I will spead my time telling those who are hungry for the gospel and the truth.
I know there is a evil spirit of debating and I what to get out of it.
Well I think I said enough so let me go on with my last question on water salvation baptism.
If a person strongly believe that Jesus has died on the cross, and he confessed his sins with all his heart like Ro:10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ro:10:11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Ro:10:12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Ro:10:13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Also the person plead the Blood of Jesus to WASH away all his past sins according to Ro:3:24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro:3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro:3:26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
This person finds his first Love in Jesus after beleiving in the Lord Jesus and right after he dies from an accident and didn`t get water baptize , but he did get Spiritual baptized.
The big question is will this person still go to hell because he didn`t get water baptize to wash again his sins even though the Blood of Jesus washed away all his past sin so he can be new in Christ and dead to sin?????????????
What if a person did all that I wrote above and is afraid of being dunk in water is this person bound for hell???
Can you tell a person after doing all the thing I mention before that he is still now going to hell after recieving Jesus in thier heart and that they are still a sinner and carrying all thier past sins on them even though the Blood of Jesus washed the sins.
Are they still sinful dirty before God because the Blood of Jesus was not strong enough to make them totally clean so they need the water baptism to do the final works????
If some one could be kind to answer these question I willl print out the answer for my notes and make copy for the my Mormon friends.
Thanks and God Bless
c.moore
New member
Hey JustAChristian
Can I ask you some questions so I can understand why you beleive like you do????
1. Do you belong or go to a anointed bible teaching church with a ordained pastor or pastors teaching the sheeps or church??????
2,Are you filled with the Holy Spirit like in M'r:16:17: And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;?????????
3. Have you been taught the bible with other christians with a bible teacher who maybe has a degree in bible studies and is a Spirit fill teacher???????
4.Do you watch christian tv like TBN and other ministers teaching on the bible like benny Hinn Kenneth Copeland even Billy Graham,Kathorine Kahlman or Wiggle Worth who raised over 16 people from the dead , because these great ministers have the same doctrine and faith , belief as me ????????
I will stick around and wait for your answer so I can see why we have differences.
This will reveal a little bit of you and where you might get your knowledge and belief.
peace
Can I ask you some questions so I can understand why you beleive like you do????
1. Do you belong or go to a anointed bible teaching church with a ordained pastor or pastors teaching the sheeps or church??????
2,Are you filled with the Holy Spirit like in M'r:16:17: And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;?????????
3. Have you been taught the bible with other christians with a bible teacher who maybe has a degree in bible studies and is a Spirit fill teacher???????
4.Do you watch christian tv like TBN and other ministers teaching on the bible like benny Hinn Kenneth Copeland even Billy Graham,Kathorine Kahlman or Wiggle Worth who raised over 16 people from the dead , because these great ministers have the same doctrine and faith , belief as me ????????
I will stick around and wait for your answer so I can see why we have differences.
This will reveal a little bit of you and where you might get your knowledge and belief.
peace
Kevin
New member
c.moore,
There you go again, running to another part of the Bible to try and cover up the fact that you can't deal with Mark 16:16 and the fact that Jesus said that two conditions have to be met for one to be saved. You can't deal with it
I shake my head in disgust at this comment, yet another what if senario. I HAVE ALREADY DEALT WITH YOUR WHAT IF SENARIOS MULTIPLE TIMES ------> DEAL WITH THEM. WHY DO YOU KEEP ASKING?!
You see, you can't deal with what the scriptures teach, so you attempt to make a person feel guilty by putting them in "what if" senarios to cover up the fact that you can't answer simple, logical questions about the scriptures without admitting that your belief only theory is heaping load of garbage.
Again, there is no need to mention baptism in the latter part of Mark 16:16 because one of the two requirements to be saved has not been met. That person is already lost, and won't reach the point of baptism.
According Mark 16:16, what are two requirments for one to be saved? Remember that those two requirements are joined by the word "and", and that you said that means that something is "added or included. So what are those two requirements, c.moore? Are you going to list them as the Bible says, or are you going to exclude one of them even though the other one is "included" by the word "and". Can you answer this simple, logical question?
Then this "new born baby" has not met the requirements that Jesus clearly illustrated for salvation. Jesus said "he who believes AND (which means to "include", remember?) is baptized will be saved".
I shudder at this thought. I just hope the people that you brought to Christ have the wisdom to follow Christ and obey His commandments instead of following the lack of truth that you and others alike teach.
There you go again, running to another part of the Bible to try and cover up the fact that you can't deal with Mark 16:16 and the fact that Jesus said that two conditions have to be met for one to be saved. You can't deal with it
I shake my head in disgust at this comment, yet another what if senario. I HAVE ALREADY DEALT WITH YOUR WHAT IF SENARIOS MULTIPLE TIMES ------> DEAL WITH THEM. WHY DO YOU KEEP ASKING?!
You see, you can't deal with what the scriptures teach, so you attempt to make a person feel guilty by putting them in "what if" senarios to cover up the fact that you can't answer simple, logical questions about the scriptures without admitting that your belief only theory is heaping load of garbage.
Again, there is no need to mention baptism in the latter part of Mark 16:16 because one of the two requirements to be saved has not been met. That person is already lost, and won't reach the point of baptism.
According Mark 16:16, what are two requirments for one to be saved? Remember that those two requirements are joined by the word "and", and that you said that means that something is "added or included. So what are those two requirements, c.moore? Are you going to list them as the Bible says, or are you going to exclude one of them even though the other one is "included" by the word "and". Can you answer this simple, logical question?
Then this "new born baby" has not met the requirements that Jesus clearly illustrated for salvation. Jesus said "he who believes AND (which means to "include", remember?) is baptized will be saved".
I shudder at this thought. I just hope the people that you brought to Christ have the wisdom to follow Christ and obey His commandments instead of following the lack of truth that you and others alike teach.
Last edited:
Kevin
New member
c.moore,
c.moore, your ignorance preceeds you. The last time you likened me to being a Mormon, I told you to ask Carl Smuda about my debate with "LizaJane", who is (or was at that time) a Mormon. I'll save you the trouble, c.moore. I have tracked down the forums I used to post in that has the debate between LizaJane and I. I went under the same name, "Kevin". The link is below, but before you click there, take note of the instructions right after it. Unfortunately, there isn't a direct link to the thread itself, but I will post clear instructions on how to find it:
Here is the link to the website:
http://www.theologywebsite.com/forum/index.html
1) Click on "God and Theology".
2) Click on "search" in the upper right corner of the page.
3) Under the Search Words field, type "lizajane" and click the "Perform Search" button.
4) The thread is called "Your shall be as gods".
Just in case you don't want to read the entire debate (it's quite long), here are some direct quotes of what I said to LizaJane:
Need I say more? If I was a Mormon as you think I am, do you really think I would say things like that???!!! And just so you don't think what I said about Carl Smuda witnessing this debate is a lie also, here is what he said to me:
Get it through your inaccurate, presumptuous head - I, nor Carri (my wife) AM NOT A MORMON! Your accusation, just like your belief, is empty and lacking.
c.moore, your ignorance preceeds you. The last time you likened me to being a Mormon, I told you to ask Carl Smuda about my debate with "LizaJane", who is (or was at that time) a Mormon. I'll save you the trouble, c.moore. I have tracked down the forums I used to post in that has the debate between LizaJane and I. I went under the same name, "Kevin". The link is below, but before you click there, take note of the instructions right after it. Unfortunately, there isn't a direct link to the thread itself, but I will post clear instructions on how to find it:
Here is the link to the website:
http://www.theologywebsite.com/forum/index.html
1) Click on "God and Theology".
2) Click on "search" in the upper right corner of the page.
3) Under the Search Words field, type "lizajane" and click the "Perform Search" button.
4) The thread is called "Your shall be as gods".
Just in case you don't want to read the entire debate (it's quite long), here are some direct quotes of what I said to LizaJane:
Need I say more? If I was a Mormon as you think I am, do you really think I would say things like that???!!! And just so you don't think what I said about Carl Smuda witnessing this debate is a lie also, here is what he said to me:
Get it through your inaccurate, presumptuous head - I, nor Carri (my wife) AM NOT A MORMON! Your accusation, just like your belief, is empty and lacking.
Last edited:
c.moore
New member
Quote by Carri
Here are the answers to your all important questions:
quote:c.moore
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Do you belong or go to a anointed bible teaching church with a ordained pastor or pastors teaching the sheeps or church??????
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I belong to the church established by Christ, over which he is head. Whether or not it is anointed I can't say because I'm not sure what you mean. I do know that it is Christ's church and that is good enough for me. There are no ordained pastors, and I would like you to show me where, in the Bible, there were such people. A pastor has to fulfill the qualifications set out in scripture and I don't see being ordained as a qualification.
quote c.moore
what I mean is a church led by the Spirit of God, where healing take place, people get added to the church daily, gift of the spirit flow through your church.
But the way you explain not knowing about the anointing, and no ardain pastor , I could figure you maybe just have a house group church with 10 or 15 at the most members that been there for the last 10 years maybe, and Kevin is one of the members which makes it 16 people. WoW
quote:by c.moore
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2,Are you filled with the Holy Spirit like in M'r:16:17: And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;?????????
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I received the gift of the Holy Spirit when my sins were remissed at baptism and the Spirit dwells within me. However, I do not possess any of the miraculous gifts, since they have been done away with, now that we have the fullness of His Word.
quote by c.moore
I guest this really answers all the questions I can ask
Know your church teaches a little Jehovah Wittness doctrine as well , that Jesus is no more the healer and God is not Al Shadai.
I heard this story before and you problemly took the one verse from 1 COR to prove your right like the one verse from Mark 16:16 RIGHT?
No wounder there`s no sign and miracles gifts in you house group. If you have this kind of doctrine it time to say good bye because I know why you are decieved in this water baptism, more than you know your self, but like I said I will stop the TOL because of things like you answer and believe, I `ll spead time for those who are hungry for the truth, and the good news not bad new like you mention healing faded out the it some kind of hippy party. Why do some try to destroy God`s kingdom????
quote: c.moore
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4.Do you watch christian tv like TBN and other ministers teaching on the bible like benny Hinn Kenneth Copeland even Billy Graham,Kathorine Kahlman or Wiggle Worth who raised over 16 people from the dead , because these great ministers have the same doctrine and faith , belief as me ????????
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First of all, I would like to say that I definately would not watch a television show where the preacher was a woman--Kathorine Kahlman--because that is in direct defiance of God's Word in a woman not teaching or having authority over a man. Anyone who watches such a program and supports it is not following Christ's teachings (through Paul). Beyond that, no I do not watch these programs, where the almighty dollar appears to be their true god.
Quote by c.moore
To not watch tv I can understand but to come against women that are anointed and getting millions saved and baptized like you believe is wrong I think God and myself have a big problem with that. You all are starting to sound like my old old grandmother church where they thought paul was taking to them and please don`t tell me you wear these lamp shade hats in you church or house group, please don`t let me laugh. uuummmmmm
That why I ask about anointed teacher in your church and anointed pastor that can hear God`s voice to teach you all how to study and rightly divide the Word of God.
What a shame, but your not alone believe me I know your kind.
By the way sence you don`t know or believe in healig also , guest you don`T believe in thje good news of raising the so here something to study on healing and dead coming to life which Jesus said we could do. Some day maybe when you all grow and start eating food and get off the theology milk bottle you might understand and with yur getting grow into knowledge Kevin and Carri. Here is the link you can get medical reports on this to blow your mind.
www.christianhistory.org/wigglesworth.html
You don`t have to respond on the post I won`t anwer, but if you ever what to grow in Jesus and accept the word of God one day or one year you can e-mail me revival.disco@t-online.de
peace
And God be with you
bye might see you in heaven if you don`t give up the faith,:
Here are the answers to your all important questions:
quote:c.moore
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Do you belong or go to a anointed bible teaching church with a ordained pastor or pastors teaching the sheeps or church??????
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I belong to the church established by Christ, over which he is head. Whether or not it is anointed I can't say because I'm not sure what you mean. I do know that it is Christ's church and that is good enough for me. There are no ordained pastors, and I would like you to show me where, in the Bible, there were such people. A pastor has to fulfill the qualifications set out in scripture and I don't see being ordained as a qualification.
quote c.moore
what I mean is a church led by the Spirit of God, where healing take place, people get added to the church daily, gift of the spirit flow through your church.
But the way you explain not knowing about the anointing, and no ardain pastor , I could figure you maybe just have a house group church with 10 or 15 at the most members that been there for the last 10 years maybe, and Kevin is one of the members which makes it 16 people. WoW
quote:by c.moore
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2,Are you filled with the Holy Spirit like in M'r:16:17: And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;?????????
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I received the gift of the Holy Spirit when my sins were remissed at baptism and the Spirit dwells within me. However, I do not possess any of the miraculous gifts, since they have been done away with, now that we have the fullness of His Word.
quote by c.moore
I guest this really answers all the questions I can ask
Know your church teaches a little Jehovah Wittness doctrine as well , that Jesus is no more the healer and God is not Al Shadai.
I heard this story before and you problemly took the one verse from 1 COR to prove your right like the one verse from Mark 16:16 RIGHT?
No wounder there`s no sign and miracles gifts in you house group. If you have this kind of doctrine it time to say good bye because I know why you are decieved in this water baptism, more than you know your self, but like I said I will stop the TOL because of things like you answer and believe, I `ll spead time for those who are hungry for the truth, and the good news not bad new like you mention healing faded out the it some kind of hippy party. Why do some try to destroy God`s kingdom????
quote: c.moore
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4.Do you watch christian tv like TBN and other ministers teaching on the bible like benny Hinn Kenneth Copeland even Billy Graham,Kathorine Kahlman or Wiggle Worth who raised over 16 people from the dead , because these great ministers have the same doctrine and faith , belief as me ????????
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First of all, I would like to say that I definately would not watch a television show where the preacher was a woman--Kathorine Kahlman--because that is in direct defiance of God's Word in a woman not teaching or having authority over a man. Anyone who watches such a program and supports it is not following Christ's teachings (through Paul). Beyond that, no I do not watch these programs, where the almighty dollar appears to be their true god.
Quote by c.moore
To not watch tv I can understand but to come against women that are anointed and getting millions saved and baptized like you believe is wrong I think God and myself have a big problem with that. You all are starting to sound like my old old grandmother church where they thought paul was taking to them and please don`t tell me you wear these lamp shade hats in you church or house group, please don`t let me laugh. uuummmmmm
That why I ask about anointed teacher in your church and anointed pastor that can hear God`s voice to teach you all how to study and rightly divide the Word of God.
What a shame, but your not alone believe me I know your kind.
By the way sence you don`t know or believe in healig also , guest you don`T believe in thje good news of raising the so here something to study on healing and dead coming to life which Jesus said we could do. Some day maybe when you all grow and start eating food and get off the theology milk bottle you might understand and with yur getting grow into knowledge Kevin and Carri. Here is the link you can get medical reports on this to blow your mind.
www.christianhistory.org/wigglesworth.html
You don`t have to respond on the post I won`t anwer, but if you ever what to grow in Jesus and accept the word of God one day or one year you can e-mail me revival.disco@t-online.de
peace
And God be with you
bye might see you in heaven if you don`t give up the faith,:
JustAChristian
New member
C. Moore Wants To Know........
C. Moore Wants To Know........
C. Moore wanted to know what church I am a member and if I follow after Benny Hinn and those other TV evangelist. I hope that this post will give attention to these questions in this manner:
I was talking to my dentist one morning as he was filling a tooth, about religion. He asked me what I did now that I was retired from Civil Service, and that I was a preacher in the church of Christ. The conversation began to take the normal course, at least it is normal for me, and that is that he, like most people, believe that there are good people in all churches, and because of this, God is going to save all the good people in all the churches, and condemn all the bad people in the world. He could not hold to a concept of only one church being acceptable to God (Matt. 16:18-20; Eph. 4:4). In order to really be truthful to this subject, it becomes necessary to go to the Bible for all our conclusions. Truth IS NOT a relative concept. Therefore it is vital that truth have its proper place, and that place is with a proper conclusion. Agreed?
If I told you that two plus two is four, we shouldn't have any problem with that. Right? Of course, because two plus two equals four has been scientifically proven to be true. There is no way to discount it. By the same token, the Bible has many facts that have been stated and proven true. The city walls of Jericho fell after the marching of the army of Israel for seven days, once daily and on the seventh day seven times. Excavations of the foundation and structural remains show a destruction of the walls that would have come about by a catastrophic manner unlike an explosion or earthquake or anything that we can relate to in our world. This leaves only the miraculous manner in which it fell. Since we can not explain it naturally, it can only be explained as a miracle from the hand of Jehovah. We can account for many things in the Bible, not by natural means, but by miraculous means, and so we must believe in the miracle that are expressed in the Bible as the work of God.
What we find then is that God did His will in many ways : by NATURAL MEANS, by APPOINTMENT, and by MIRACLES, but never BY ACCIDENT or AT THE HAND OF MAN'S INVENTIONS AND INNOVATIONS. When Jesus said He would build His church (Matthew 16:18-20), it was to be done at His design and not at man's design. The design resulted in the one body and faith with an approved manner of life for Christians (Eph 4:4-5; Jude 3; Eph 3:`1-13). There is one body (Eph 4:4). Christ is head of the body the church ( Col. 1:18-24). He is the savior of the body the church (Eph. 5:23). To Timothy, Paul wrote that the Living God, Jesus was the savior of all man, but he prefaced that by saying "specially of those that believe" (1 Tim. 4:11). This then EXCLUDES salvation for unbelievers, even if they or someone else FELT that they were ELECTED OR PREDESTINATED. Salvation can only be and is at the acceptance of the exclusive plan of Christ (Heb. 5:8-9). What I think means nothing, and what you think means nothing. Salvation is in the mind of God (Eph 5:23).
The Bible says, "Except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it; except the Lord keep the city, the watchman walketh but in vain" (Psalms 127:1). What can we conclude from this passage. First of all, truth is not relative. God works in the kingdoms of man to do His will (Dan. 4:25). What God has appoint for man to do in order to be saved can not be altered by addition or deletion. To say that good people in all churches will be saved says that God saves on the basis of morality or merit and not for obedience of faith (Romans 1:5). The Bible says rewards come on the basis of obedience (Heb 5:8-9). Thus when one is saved by grace through faith, the salvation came because he or she acted upon the gift of grace and obtained it by obedience. The Bible says to believe that Jesus is the Son of God (Jn 8:24; Acts 8:37) To this, one is required to repent of sins and redirect his or her life (Luke 13:3,5) There must be a confession of Jesus as God's Son before man (Matt. 10:32,33) and then he or she must be baptized by immersion in water, for thus is defined the word in the Greek. And, that washing must be for the remission of sins.(Acts 2:38) Only then is one saved and cleansed of sins (Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21). Who says he or she is then saved? Well, God does ( Eph 2:8-9). We do what he requires of us and he rewards us with precious gifts (Heb. 5:8-9; Eph 1:3). Separate and apart from this there is speculation and conjecture based on ones personal opinion, and feelings
You want to know what church I am a member. The bible says that there is ONE body (Eph. 4:4). We are called to be in that ONE body (Col. 3:15). Salvation is patterned after the doctrine of Christ (James 1:21) We follow the pattern and we are members of the ONE body. (Acts 2:47). Mankind can not be saved by being added to a man made institution patterned after a man made doctrine. If the church can not trace its history to the NEW TESTAMENT era. If it is not designed using First Century principles of faith, instead of "side show" antics, I would seek the ONE Church. I base my salvation on this facts; "...except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it..." ( Psalm 127:1, Matthew 16:18-20; 1 Tim. 3:15).
JustAChristian
C. Moore Wants To Know........
C. Moore wanted to know what church I am a member and if I follow after Benny Hinn and those other TV evangelist. I hope that this post will give attention to these questions in this manner:
I was talking to my dentist one morning as he was filling a tooth, about religion. He asked me what I did now that I was retired from Civil Service, and that I was a preacher in the church of Christ. The conversation began to take the normal course, at least it is normal for me, and that is that he, like most people, believe that there are good people in all churches, and because of this, God is going to save all the good people in all the churches, and condemn all the bad people in the world. He could not hold to a concept of only one church being acceptable to God (Matt. 16:18-20; Eph. 4:4). In order to really be truthful to this subject, it becomes necessary to go to the Bible for all our conclusions. Truth IS NOT a relative concept. Therefore it is vital that truth have its proper place, and that place is with a proper conclusion. Agreed?
If I told you that two plus two is four, we shouldn't have any problem with that. Right? Of course, because two plus two equals four has been scientifically proven to be true. There is no way to discount it. By the same token, the Bible has many facts that have been stated and proven true. The city walls of Jericho fell after the marching of the army of Israel for seven days, once daily and on the seventh day seven times. Excavations of the foundation and structural remains show a destruction of the walls that would have come about by a catastrophic manner unlike an explosion or earthquake or anything that we can relate to in our world. This leaves only the miraculous manner in which it fell. Since we can not explain it naturally, it can only be explained as a miracle from the hand of Jehovah. We can account for many things in the Bible, not by natural means, but by miraculous means, and so we must believe in the miracle that are expressed in the Bible as the work of God.
What we find then is that God did His will in many ways : by NATURAL MEANS, by APPOINTMENT, and by MIRACLES, but never BY ACCIDENT or AT THE HAND OF MAN'S INVENTIONS AND INNOVATIONS. When Jesus said He would build His church (Matthew 16:18-20), it was to be done at His design and not at man's design. The design resulted in the one body and faith with an approved manner of life for Christians (Eph 4:4-5; Jude 3; Eph 3:`1-13). There is one body (Eph 4:4). Christ is head of the body the church ( Col. 1:18-24). He is the savior of the body the church (Eph. 5:23). To Timothy, Paul wrote that the Living God, Jesus was the savior of all man, but he prefaced that by saying "specially of those that believe" (1 Tim. 4:11). This then EXCLUDES salvation for unbelievers, even if they or someone else FELT that they were ELECTED OR PREDESTINATED. Salvation can only be and is at the acceptance of the exclusive plan of Christ (Heb. 5:8-9). What I think means nothing, and what you think means nothing. Salvation is in the mind of God (Eph 5:23).
The Bible says, "Except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it; except the Lord keep the city, the watchman walketh but in vain" (Psalms 127:1). What can we conclude from this passage. First of all, truth is not relative. God works in the kingdoms of man to do His will (Dan. 4:25). What God has appoint for man to do in order to be saved can not be altered by addition or deletion. To say that good people in all churches will be saved says that God saves on the basis of morality or merit and not for obedience of faith (Romans 1:5). The Bible says rewards come on the basis of obedience (Heb 5:8-9). Thus when one is saved by grace through faith, the salvation came because he or she acted upon the gift of grace and obtained it by obedience. The Bible says to believe that Jesus is the Son of God (Jn 8:24; Acts 8:37) To this, one is required to repent of sins and redirect his or her life (Luke 13:3,5) There must be a confession of Jesus as God's Son before man (Matt. 10:32,33) and then he or she must be baptized by immersion in water, for thus is defined the word in the Greek. And, that washing must be for the remission of sins.(Acts 2:38) Only then is one saved and cleansed of sins (Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21). Who says he or she is then saved? Well, God does ( Eph 2:8-9). We do what he requires of us and he rewards us with precious gifts (Heb. 5:8-9; Eph 1:3). Separate and apart from this there is speculation and conjecture based on ones personal opinion, and feelings
You want to know what church I am a member. The bible says that there is ONE body (Eph. 4:4). We are called to be in that ONE body (Col. 3:15). Salvation is patterned after the doctrine of Christ (James 1:21) We follow the pattern and we are members of the ONE body. (Acts 2:47). Mankind can not be saved by being added to a man made institution patterned after a man made doctrine. If the church can not trace its history to the NEW TESTAMENT era. If it is not designed using First Century principles of faith, instead of "side show" antics, I would seek the ONE Church. I base my salvation on this facts; "...except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it..." ( Psalm 127:1, Matthew 16:18-20; 1 Tim. 3:15).
JustAChristian
Last edited: