The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[JustAChristian]

Works will not save!

Works will not save!

Quote by JustAchritain

I don't know a single brother or sister in the faith that believes that water saves you. Yet, all the "faith onlies" want to make us out to be that way so they can try to justify their UNGODLY CONCLUSION that faith alone saves. The Bible emphatically says that faith only will not justify a person (James 2:24).

Quote by c.moore

Jas:2:24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
But there is no baptism mention in this verse.

JOC let check out what the bible says about work for eternal salvation life.

Ro:4:4: Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Ro:4:5: But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Ro:9:11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

M't:24:22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the (elect's) sake those days shall be shortened.
You see the word elected not good works or waiting to Judgement day, or faith works for salvation.


Eph:1:4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ro:8:28: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.


Ro:4:4: Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Ro:4:5: But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Ro:3:24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro:3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro:3:26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Ro:3:27: Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Ro:3:28: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. It tells us that much more is expected of us than faith. Salvation come at the end of our faith (1 Peter 1:9). We have to hear the gospel, believe it and repent of sins. There must be a public confession of Jesus Christ a God's Son. We must be immersed in Christ (Gal. 3:26-27). -- Where does the Bible mention getting into the spiritual body of Christ, the church, except by being obedient to baptism?

Quote by c.moore
Let see JOC,
Joh:17:23: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Joh:14:20: At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Ro:8:10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Quote by JOC
Its not there. Jesus Christ will save the church that is His body (Eph 5:23). His church will be delivered up to the Father ( 1 Cor 15:24). Unless one has been baptized and added to the church (Acts 2:38; 2:47), he will not be eternally saved.

Quote by c.moore
Ac:2:38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Sorry but I don`t see those words he will not be eternally saved in this verse.
Let me check out your next verse.

Ac:2:47: Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Sorry but I don`t see those words he will not be eternally saved in this verse or anything about eternal life.confused:

peace

C. Moore says:

Jas:2:24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
But there is no baptism mention in this verse.

JustAChristian answers:

Neither is there the call to repentance, confession or rising to walk in newness of life; all of whicch are essential for salvation.
Do you deny that?

C. Moore states:

JOC let check out what the bible says about work for eternal salvation life.



JustAChristian answers:

We don't have to debate that point. I admit that a man can not be saved by meritorious works. It lies for you to prove that obeying a command of God in Jesus Christ is a meritorious work.
The Hebrew writer said "...though He were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation to them that obey him. (Heb. 5:8-9). I believe that Jesus Christ expected me to take action on my part to obey His commandments. The whole purpose of the Gospel being preached was to direct man to obedience (Rom. 1:16; 10:16a). The Faith Onlies do not consider the essentially of obedience. When Paul wrote the church at Ephesus, he said under inspiration that "...by grace have you been saved (meaning, you didn't earn your salvation, JAC) through faith (by your obedience to the faith (Romans 10:17; Jude 3 JAC) and not of yourselves. It is the gift of God (God chose to save, and salvation is a Spiritual blessing (Eph 1:3) JAC.) Not of works lest any man should boast. I was obedient in hearing the word. I was obedient in repenting of my sins. I was obedient in believing Jesus is the Son of God. I was obedient in confessing it openly before mankind. I was obedient in being baptized for the remission of my sins. In all this I was obedient. All that I did was that which the Bible told me would bring me into covenant relationship with Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:27). But was I earning my salvation? No, because salvation is in the mind of God and is extended to those who obey him. When the Faith Onlies look at the Bible, they see an instrument that commands, but they are not willing to listen. They seek God on their terms and like the Pharisees, they deny unto themselves the will of God (Luke 7:30). They refused to be among those who were prepared to greet the Lord at his coming (Mark 1:4). Men and women die daily holding the same conclusion that you hold, but God will judge by Jesus Christ if we were faithful (Acts 17:30-31). I hope you give the Bible more consideration by a concise and consistant pattern of study.

I asked C. Moore for a verse that says we can get into Christ without being baptized and his post shows:

Quote by c.moore
Let see JOC,
Joh:17:23: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Joh:14:20: At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

JustAChristian answers:

How do these verses show one entered into relationship with Jesus Christ. C. Moore concludes that it is not by baptism, but do these verses exclude baptism? No they don't. Baptism is not covered in the context, but it is not necessarily excluded from the general context.

JustAChristian

 

[servantofChrist]

To all of you who believe that believing in Christ alone will save you - especially you, Freak - but to all who believe this way, please answer the following:

Rom. 10:10 says, "...for with the mouth confession is made to salvation."

And Jesus said, "But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is heaven" (Matt. 10:33).

Obviously, if you are one who is saved, Jesus is NOT going to deny you before the Father!

Now watch this! :

"Nevertheless, even among the rulers MANY BELIEVED IN HIM, BUT because of the Pharisees THEY DID NOT CONFESS HIM, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God" (John 12:42).

There you have it - people who believed in Christ, but would not confess Him - therefore, according to Rom. 10:10 and the Lord Jesus' own words in Matt. 10:33, Jesus denied knowing them to the Father, and they DISOBEYED one of the REQUIREMENTS for salvation - CONFESSION: "...and with the mouth confession is made to salvation!

I await your reply!

 

[servantofChrist]

Hello C. Moore,

Some comments, please, about Mk. 16:16...

You said, "I got baptized like mark:16:16 after I got SAVED past tence by my belief."

Mr. Moore, please don't read Mk. 16:16 according to your theology or doctrinal view. Instead, please just read it EXACTLY as the Lord Jesus SAID IT . Look at the order of things AS THEY APPEAR IN THE VERSE:

"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved...."

You say you were saved AFTER believing, thus, BEFORE being baptized. But that is NOT what the LORD JESUS is saying!

Your order is: 1. believed 2. saved 3. baptized
Jesus' order is: 1. believed 2. baptized 3. saved

Jesus puts "saved" AFTER "baptized," NOT BEFORE it!

Regarding Eph. 2:8-9, and being saved by grace through faith... Paul's words here were spoken to PEOPLE WHO HAD ALREADY BEEN SAVED , AND CONSTITUTED A SUMMARY STATEMENT ABOUT THEIR PAST SALVATION!

His words were NOT words being spoken to people who had not yet been saved telling them specifically what to do to be saved. Understanding this is critically important.

If someone makes the following summary statement, "It takes hard work and perseverance to get a college degree," while such a statement is true, it does NOT disclose the particulars that one must perform to achieve that college degree! But that wasn't the speaker's intention in the first place in making the statement, "It takes hard work and perseverance to get a college degree."

That is exactly the way it is with Paul's words to the Ephesians. First of all, these people had already been saved (received the initial cleansing and forgiveness of their sins). Secondly, Paul's words in Eph. 2:8-9 were not INTENDED to disclose the specific steps one must do in order to BE saved who hasn't yet been saved!

Also, you associate baptism with "works," so you say it isn't a part of our salvation. When Paul said, "not by works, lest any man should boast," he was NOT teaching that works have nothing to do with being saved, he was merely making the point that we are not saved BY [because of] the works we perform, as though we EARN our salvation; hence, the word "boast" - "that no one may BOAST."

If you think that works have nothing to do with being saved, then try harmonizing that view with Jesus's words in Matt. 25:41-46:

"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.

And brother - that is an awful LOT of WORK! Now listen to what will happen to these who did NOT do these "WORKS":

"And these will go away INTO ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

[servantofChrist]

I just want to say one more thing for the moment (to everyone)...

If I do not reply specifically to someone's comment, question, or challenge to me. IT ISN'T BECAUSE I AM UNABLE TO ANSWER THE COMMENT, QUESTION, OR CHALLENGE, it is because I have a LOT of other things that demand my time and attention each and every day. I would absolutely LOVE to have unlimited time to participate in these discussions and debates. Because, as argumentative as they may seem sometimes, I sincerely do believe that they cause us all to THINK about our beliefs, and cause us to SEARCH the scriptures more diligently about the various Christian doctrines. Another reason I cannot reply as often as I would like is, I have very significant neck and spine problems that frequently bring on overwhelming and completely incapacitating pain. So I cannot sit at one time for very long.

And one final point here: I also want to take this opportunity to say this. Although sometimes things get pretty "heated" in the midst of our discussions and debating, I mean this will all of my heart: I am the VERY LEAST of all God's people and the MOST UNWORTHY to bear the precious name "Christian." I sincerely love each and every person on this forum with all of my heart, in spite of our doctrinal differences. I hope that all of you will believe me, that even when I have SHARP disagreement with anyone in these doctrinal disputations, that I nevertheless thank God for each of you, for our moderators who make this forum possible, and I pray the Lord's richest blessings upon ALL.

 

[c.moore]

quote carri
Saying that a person will be baptized because he is saved is like saying that a person will eat a meal at McDonalds because he has heartburn. Got it?

But Carri the main thing is the eating not the heart burn.
It all comes down to eat or eating, like believing and belief is the root and key and the door.
the baptism or heart burn comes after but it all about belief.

peace

 

[c.moore]

Quote by Kevin
Let me ask you a question c.moore. Do you think that somebody has to be alive in Christ and free from sin to make it to heaven?

by c.moore
I think this Kevin;Eph:2:4: But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph:2:5: Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph:2:6: And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph:2:7: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph:2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph:2:9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Let me just throw this in for the those who are Spiritual believer without the works of water baptism.

M'r:16:17: And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
M'r:16:18: They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
M'r:16:19: So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
M'r:16:20: And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Praise God

 

[c.moore]

Quote by JAC
The Hebrew writer said "...though He were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation to them that obey him. (Heb. 5:8-9). I believe that Jesus Christ expected me to take action on my part to obey His commandments. The whole purpose of the Gospel being preached was to direct man to obedience (Rom. 1:16; 10:16a). The Faith Onlies do not consider the essentially of obedience. When Paul wrote the church at Ephesus, he said under inspiration that "...by grace have you been saved (meaning, you didn't earn your salvation, JAC) through faith (by your obedience to the faith (Romans 10:17; Jude 3 JAC) and not of yourselves. It is the gift of God (God chose to save, and salvation is a Spiritual blessing (Eph 1:3) JAC.) Not of works lest any man should boast. I was obedient in hearing the word.

Quote by c.moore
Let me cut you off right here first to straighten something out.
I see you misunderstand the power of Grace.
You mention yourself about grace in the above statement you don`t earn it and that right but the most important thing that Grace does is help you to be obedient, help you to want to work, help you so the yokes and burdens are light, help you to want to be baptized, the Grace guide you to obey the commandment and etc, that why like you admit in the above statement Not of works lest any man should boast.
this is said because man trys to do the works of God and want to take over the works of grace so they can boast on how obedient they are with any help from the anointing and grace of God.
I can see this and other about boasting when I read the rest of your obedience below.
Let`s Check out how you boast JAC .

Quote by JAC
I was obedient in repenting of my sins. I was obedient in believing Jesus is the Son of God. I was obedient in confessing it openly before mankind. I was obedient in being baptized for the remission of my sins. In all this I was obedient. All that I did was that which the Bible told me would bring me into covenant relationship with Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:27). But was I earning my salvation? No, because salvation is in the mind of God and is extended to those who obey him. When the Faith Onlies look at the Bible, they see an instrument that commands, but they are not willing to listen. They seek God on their terms and like the Pharisees, they deny unto themselves the will of God (Luke 7:30). They refused to be among those who were prepared to greet the Lord at his coming (Mark 1:4). Men and women die daily holding the same conclusion that you hold, but God will judge by Jesus Christ if we were faithful (Acts 17:30-31). I hope you give the Bible more consideration by a concise and consistant pattern of study.

Good job JustAChristian

peace

 

[c.moore]

Quote by SOC
To all of you who believe that believing in Christ alone will save you - especially you, Freak - but to all who believe this way, please answer the following:

Sorry but I didn`t see any questions to be answer SOC.

Did you forget to put a question mark some where?

By the way all of us that believe and look to Christ as our author and God of our faith stand up for Roman 10:10 because no water baptism mention but everything we need to be save is in Chapter 10 of Roman to have eternal life and be SAVED ALONE.

Glad it poited it out SOC some other people need to stand on the confession of Christ and the blood of Jesus alone and let the grace of God walk you through the christian life after being saved alone.

God bless peace

 

[c.moore]

Some comments, please, about Mk. 16:16...

You said, "I got baptized like mark:16:16 after I got SAVED past tence by my belief."

Mr. Moore, please don't read Mk. 16:16 according to your theology or doctrinal view. Instead, please just read it EXACTLY as the Lord Jesus SAID IT . Look at the order of things AS THEY APPEAR IN THE VERSE:

"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved...."

You say you were saved AFTER believing, thus, BEFORE being baptized. But that is NOT what the LORD JESUS is saying!

Your order is: 1. believed 2. saved 3. baptized
Jesus' order is: 1. believed 2. baptized 3. saved

Jesus puts "saved" AFTER "baptized," NOT BEFORE it!

The important root and key is the belief.
the faith is what please God Heb:11:6: But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

the first scriptures I ever learned was Joh:3:15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh:3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ro:10:3: For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Ro:10:4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Ro:10:5: For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Ro:10:6: But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Ro:10:7: Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Ro:10:8: But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Ro:10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ro:10:11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Ro:10:12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Ro:10:13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Ro:10:14: How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

I built my faith on these scriptures that saved me and gave me eternal life.

Let me ask you a question; If I was a person that just found Jesus and I believed and fell in love with Christ and repented ,confessed my sins, and believe Jesus has washed me with his blood, and before I can get water baptized and I die will I spend eternal life in hell because I didn`t complete mark 16:16 the second part you call salvation ????????????????

I`ll be waiting for you salvation answer, because I know alot of people who never got baptized but loved God but was afraid to join some church through baptisim.

Remember what you said Jesus' order is: 1. believed 2. baptized 3. saved

I just what know about all those people who really love God but had a problem they wanted to solve and understand with water baptism but died without or commited suicide and as I understand your theology They earned thier way to hell because of didobedient of water baptism.

God Bless

 

[Kevin]

Answer the question please...

Answer the question please...

c.moore,

Why did you quote those Ephesian passages that says we are saved by grace. I've already agreed to that in numerous posts.

I'll ask again:

Do you think that somebody has to be alive in Christ and free from sin to make it to heaven?

I'm not asking what saves us, I'm simply asking you if somebody needs to be alive in Christ and free from sin to make it to heaven. Can you not directly answer this yes or no question?

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

Another thing, what does the word "AND" mean to you?

 

[c.moore]

question by Kevin
I'm not asking what saves us, I'm simply asking you if somebody needs to be alive in Christ and free from sin to make it to heaven. Can you not directly answer this yes or no question?

YES , by the Blood of Jesus makes us free and in Christ.

I hope this answers your quetion Kevin.

God bless you

 

[c.moore]

Question by Kevin
Another thing, what does the word "AND" mean to you?


Answer by c.moore
some thing included or added ,similar thing.

 

[c.moore]

Question to Kevin

What does the word "BUT" mean to you?

peace

 

[JustAChristian]

For By One

For By One

JAC, Apollos,

Adding to Scripture to prove your case is not a practice commended by John in Revelation :down:

[/i]
Note that the Spirit is doing the baptising. Compare John 3, where those born again (from above) are born of the Spirit.

The believer is passive, in submitting to baptism. The baptizer baptises the repentant sinner, baptism speaking of washing, remission, cleansing, death to sin, new life in Christ, membership of the body of Christ, etc. The Spirit baptises into Christ. The saving work is God's.

What you have consistently failed to prove is that the water itself actually washes away or remits the sin, thus saving the person, who without & before such baptism was in fact unsaved, & a lost sinner.

There is an essential difference between one saying "I am a sinner who believes Jesus died for my sin, therefore I am saved" but who refuses baptism & association with the church, and one who acknowledges his sin & by baptism is added to the church.

It is the blood of Christ that cleanses from all sin, not the water.
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[JustAChristian]

For By One Spirit!

For By One Spirit!

JAC, Apollos,

Adding to Scripture to prove your case is not a practice commended by John in Revelation :down:

[/i]
Note that the Spirit is doing the baptising. Compare John 3, where those born again (from above) are born of the Spirit.

The believer is passive, in submitting to baptism. The baptizer baptises the repentant sinner, baptism speaking of washing, remission, cleansing, death to sin, new life in Christ, membership of the body of Christ, etc. The Spirit baptises into Christ. The saving work is God's.

What you have consistently failed to prove is that the water itself actually washes away or remits the sin, thus saving the person, who without & before such baptism was in fact unsaved, & a lost sinner.



[/i]

Ian,
Paul wrote the letter to the Colossians, to the Philippeans and to the Galatians after he wrote to the Corinthians. He does not justify your stand in the Corithian letters as he does not in the letter to the Romans. You must find a verse that clearly says that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the ONE baptism of Ephesians 4:4-5. Hear Pauls comments about baptism and circumscism.

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead" (Col. 2:11-12).

During the First Century many of the Jews made physical circumcision a matter of faith. "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved" (Acts 15:1). They failed to realize that under the Law of Moses physical circumcision was commanded by God, but under the law of Christ circumcision of the heart is what God requires, and commands. Paul pointed this out in his writing to the Galatian church. "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love" (Gal. 5:6). "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature" (Gal. 6:15). The circumcision of today is made known through walking in newness of life.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:3-4).

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Cor. 5:17). The circumcision of the heart is seen by a new life. That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness (Eph. 4:22-24).

Holy Spirit baptism was not designed to place one into the body of Christ but to manisfest the power of God and give witness of the approval of God to a certain action. Was Cornelius and his house placed in the body of Christ after the manisfestation of the Spirit or after Peter commanded them to be baptized. To be consistant you must answer the latter. Hear the comments of Luke under inspiration: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." (Acts 2:41). Those that heard Peter and the other apostles' preaching were not added at a manisfestion of the Holy Spirit but at the hearing and doing the word. So was the Samatarians, the converts at Philippi, and wherever there was conversion. The manifestation of the Spirit came with signs and miracles but never with salvation. The pattern is established and is consistant today. Holy Spirit baptism has never caused a single soul to be saved or has placed one soul into the body of Christ.

JustAChristian

 

[carri]

C.Moore--

I guess I am not making myself understood. I didn't want you to look at what is important in the sentences, but the sentence structure itself.

Here are three sentences to compare, with the parts to be compared italicized, bolded and underlined:

1. He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.

2. He who goes to McDonalds AND eats a meal will get heartburn.

3. He who goes to school AND studies diligently will get an education.

Preserving sentence structure is an important part of of preserving God's word. All the translations of the Bible, that I have seen, translate this verse the same way, with the same structure.

Look: In sentence 2, not everyone who goes to McDonalds will get heartburn--only those who eat a meal. In sentence 3, not everyone who goes to school will get an education--only those who study diligently. The same is true of sentence 1, not everyone who believes will be saved--only those who are baptized.

Looking at the above statements, to say that someone is baptized because they are saved is the same as saying that someone eats a meal because they have heartburn or someone studies diligently because they have an education.

Try to look at this without thinking about what you think are the important parts of the sentence, just looking at the sentence structure. It makes a big difference when you look at it objectively.

Carri

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

YES , by the Blood of Jesus makes us free and in Christ.

Good, we have progress. By answering yes, you agree that one needs to be alive to Christ and free from sin to make it to heaven.

Now, according to Romans 6:7, how are we free from sin? Also, in verse 11, how are we alive in Christ? I see nothing about the blood of Christ being how we gain entry "into Christ". Can you show me where it says that we gain entry into Christ through his blood?

Now for your definition of the word "and":

some thing included or added ,similar thing.

Ok in Mark 16:16 when Jesus states the conditions of being saved, what are they? When Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved, is baptzed "included or added" with belief as part of the requirements for being saved?

To answer your question:

But - On the contrary.

 

[Ian Day]

JAC,

[JAC]
You must find a verse that clearly says that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the ONE baptism of Ephesians 4:4-5. Hear Pauls comments about baptism and circumscism.

You are confusing me with Craig (Hope).

I maintain that the One Baptism is a common (water) baptism for Jew & Gentile. THe great theme of Ephesians is that Jew & Gentile are one IN CHRIST.

 

[JustAChristian]

You still.................

You still.................

JAC,


You are confusing me with Craig (Hope).

I maintain that the One Baptism is a common (water) baptism for Jew & Gentile. THe great theme of Ephesians is that Jew & Gentile are one IN CHRIST.

Ian,
You still fail to belive the essentially of baptism. It is a command of the Lord. Peter and the apostles preached and did baptize believers. Baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). The water does not wash away sins. Sins are washed away in baptism that applies the spiritual application of the blood of Christ. It is spiritual and not physical. Obedience makes the difference. You can't enter the body of Christ unclean, just like the Priest could not enter the Holy Place uncleaned. Accept the essentialness of baptism and you will be a better person once you obey it.

JustAChristian