The Hebrew Calendar

[chair]

I’d like to clarify how the Hebrew calendar actually works, and how it changed over time.
There are weekly Sabbaths, based on 6 day work, one day rest cycle. This is clearly stated in the Bible- even in the Ten Commandments.
In addition, there are rest days when no work is to be done, on the major holidays. These are not related to the weekly Sabbaths. The holidays are celebrated on particular days of the month, which can ‘land’ on different days of the week.
Months start when the New Moon is observed. From Biblical times until about the 4th century AD this was accomplished by having witnesses who had seen the New Moon report to the religious leaders of the time. It was known that the months were 29 or 30 days long, so if the New Moon wasn’t seen on the 30th, then the current month was 30 days long and the next month started the following day- whether or not the New Moon was sighted (this could be a result of cloudy or rainy weather, besides astronomical conditions) . There always was a human element in this, as the calendar depended on human witnesses.
Over time, starting around the 4th century AD, the system of having witnesses report on the New Moon sighting became impractical. Instead, the timing of when the New Moon could theoretically be seen was calculated. This calculation is fairly accurate.
The details of when a new month actually starts are a bit complicated. For example- what if the new moon could be sighted only very late on the 30th day- and witnesses wouldn’t have had time to report it? In addition, sometimes the length of a month is deliberately adjusted in order to ensure that holidays don’t land on particular days of the week.
Besides the above, an additional month is sometimes added to the year, in order to keep the lunar month cycle synchronized with the solar (and agricultural) years. This is a common arrangement- the Chinese calendar works the same way. The Muslim calendar doesn’t have this feature, so Ramadan ‘drifts’ through the seasons.
Chair

 

[daqq]

I’d like to clarify how the Hebrew calendar actually works, and how it changed over time.
There are weekly Sabbaths, based on 6 day work, one day rest cycle. This is clearly stated in the Bible- even in the Ten Commandments.
In addition, there are rest days when no work is to be done, on the major holidays. These are not related to the weekly Sabbaths. The holidays are celebrated on particular days of the month, which can ‘land’ on different days of the week.
Months start when the New Moon is observed. From Biblical times until about the 4th century AD this was accomplished by having witnesses who had seen the New Moon report to the religious leaders of the time. It was known that the months were 29 or 30 days long, so if the New Moon wasn’t seen on the 30th, then the current month was 30 days long and the next month started the following day- whether or not the New Moon was sighted (this could be a result of cloudy or rainy weather, besides astronomical conditions) . There always was a human element in this, as the calendar depended on human witnesses.
Over time, starting around the 4th century AD, the system of having witnesses report on the New Moon sighting became impractical. Instead, the timing of when the New Moon could theoretically be seen was calculated. This calculation is fairly accurate.
The details of when a new month actually starts are a bit complicated. For example- what if the new moon could be sighted only very late on the 30th day- and witnesses wouldn’t have had time to report it? In addition, sometimes the length of a month is deliberately adjusted in order to ensure that holidays don’t land on particular days of the week.
Besides the above, an additional month is sometimes added to the year, in order to keep the lunar month cycle synchronized with the solar (and agricultural) years. This is a common arrangement- the Chinese calendar works the same way. The Muslim calendar doesn’t have this feature, so Ramadan ‘drifts’ through the seasons.
Chair

What makes you so sure the Jewish Calendar is the same as the Hebrew Calendar? The Hebrew Calendar is of Torah and Meshiah: the Jewish Calendar is of the Jews. The only thing that needs to be shown is one key place where your calendar does not comply with the Torah, (Yom haKippurim), and that is the end of the story: and of course that has already been done in another recent thread. The tenth of the seventh hodesh is a Shabbat shabbaton of rest, (and it is not observed as such in the modern Jewish Calendar).

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

I’d like to clarify how the Hebrew calendar actually works, and how it changed over time.
There are weekly Sabbaths, based on 6 day work, one day rest cycle. This is clearly stated in the Bible- even in the Ten Commandments.
In addition, there are rest days when no work is to be done, on the major holidays. These are not related to the weekly Sabbaths. The holidays are celebrated on particular days of the month, which can ‘land’ on different days of the week.
Months start when the New Moon is observed. From Biblical times until about the 4th century AD this was accomplished by having witnesses who had seen the New Moon report to the religious leaders of the time. It was known that the months were 29 or 30 days long, so if the New Moon wasn’t seen on the 30th, then the current month was 30 days long and the next month started the following day- whether or not the New Moon was sighted (this could be a result of cloudy or rainy weather, besides astronomical conditions) . There always was a human element in this, as the calendar depended on human witnesses.
Over time, starting around the 4th century AD, the system of having witnesses report on the New Moon sighting became impractical. Instead, the timing of when the New Moon could theoretically be seen was calculated. This calculation is fairly accurate.
The details of when a new month actually starts are a bit complicated. For example- what if the new moon could be sighted only very late on the 30th day- and witnesses wouldn’t have had time to report it? In addition, sometimes the length of a month is deliberately adjusted in order to ensure that holidays don’t land on particular days of the week.
Besides the above, an additional month is sometimes added to the year, in order to keep the lunar month cycle synchronized with the solar (and agricultural) years. This is a common arrangement- the Chinese calendar works the same way. The Muslim calendar doesn’t have this feature, so Ramadan ‘drifts’ through the seasons.
Chair

What you have described is the calendar invented by Hillel II in 359 AD. Prior to this it was just know as the calendar 'that God created at creation'; God's Calendar. Hillel was forced to create a modern version primarily to enable Jews to celibate the main feasts, such as Passover, on the same day no matter where in the world they lived, as they could no longer sight the new moon from Jerusalem. The Jews had been forced to live far from Israel under successive the Roman emperors, which also resulted in the Jews who were living in the Roman empire being forced to use the new Roman Julian calendar rolling week system. But as Exodus chapter 16 shows (and also 5 other places in the Bible) the Sabbaths originally fell on days 8, 15, 22 & 29. Because the manna was collected on days 16 to 21 and there was a Sabbath on day 22 of both months 1 and 2, which could only happen if Sabbaths were calculated from new moon day. This is an inescapable fact recorded in scripture and as said this 'lunar Sabbath calendar' can be also found in another 5 places in the Bible in both OT and NT.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

What makes you so sure the Jewish Calendar is the same as the Hebrew Calendar? The Hebrew Calendar is of Torah and Meshiah: the Jewish Calendar is of the Jews. The only thing that needs to be shown is one key place where your calendar does not comply with the Torah, (Yom haKippurim), and that is the end of the story: and of course that has already been done in another recent thread. The tenth of the seventh hodesh is a Shabbat shabbaton of rest, (and it is not observed as such in the modern Jewish Calendar).

It doesn't matter if YOU call it the Jewish or Hebrew calendar, it is not God's Calendar. Simply choosing to ignore the scriptures that explain God's Calendar only make YOU ignorant of scripture. In Exodus chapter 16 it shows (and also 5 other places in the Bible) the Sabbaths originally fell on days 8, 15, 22 & 29, because the manna was collected on days 16 to 21 and there was a Sabbath on day 22 in month 2 and also there was a Sabbath on day 22 in months 1, which could only happen if Sabbaths were calculated from new moon day. This is an inescapable fact recorded in scripture and as said this 'lunar Sabbath calendar' can be also found in another 5 places in the Bible in both OT and NT.

 

[daqq]

What you have described is the calendar invented by Hillel II in 359 AD. Prior to this it was just know as the calendar 'that God created at creation'; God's Calendar. Hillel was forced to create a modern version primarily to enable Jews to celibate the main feasts, such as Passover, on the same day no matter where in the world they lived, as they could no longer sight the new moon from Jerusalem. The Jews had been forced to live far from Israel under successive the Roman emperors, which also resulted in the Jews who were living in the Roman empire being forced to use the new Roman Julian calendar rolling week system. But as Exodus chapter 16 shows (and also 5 other places in the Bible) the Sabbaths originally fell on days 8, 15, 22 & 29. Because the manna was collected on days 16 to 21 and there was a Sabbath on day 22 of both months 1 and 2, which could only happen if Sabbaths were calculated from new moon day. This is an inescapable fact recorded in scripture and as said this 'lunar Sabbath calendar' can be also found in another 5 places in the Bible in both OT and NT.

And it was your own thread where your comments were already proven to be false by the same problem which the Jewish Calendar has: Yom haKippurim is a Shabbat shabbaton of rest, and this is the real fact that is inescapable, even though you dodged and evaded this fact all the way through the discussion and continue to do so to your own ignorance for rejecting what the scripture teaches.

 

[daqq]

It doesn't matter if YOU call it the Jewish or Hebrew calendar, it is not God's Calendar. Simply choosing to ignore the scriptures that explain God's Calendar only make YOU ignorant of scripture. In Exodus chapter 16 it shows (and also 5 other places in the Bible) the Sabbaths originally fell on days 8, 15, 22 & 29, because the manna was collected on days 16 to 21 and there was a Sabbath on day 22 in month 2 and also there was a Sabbath on day 22 in months 1, which could only happen if Sabbaths were calculated from new moon day. This is an inescapable fact recorded in scripture and as said this 'lunar Sabbath calendar' can be also found in another 5 places in the Bible in both OT and NT.

Ignoring the scripture, as already shown to you, and simply saying you have "God's Calendar", does not make it so.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

And it was your own thread where your comments were already proven to be false by the same problem which the Jewish Calendar has: Yom haKippurim is a Shabbat shabbaton of rest, and this is the real fact that is inescapable, even though you dodged and evaded this fact all the way through the discussion and continue to do so to your own ignorance for rejecting what the scripture teaches.

Ignoring the scripture, as already shown to you, and simply saying you have "God's Calendar", does not make it so.

I have already told you more than once that this does not break any calendar rules as there are no verses that says it does. God is sovereign and if he wants to call Atonement a Sabbath then that's fine by me. It is you who is ignoring where Exodus chapter 16 shows (and also 5 other places in the Bible) God called day 22 a Sabbath in month 2, after the manna was collected on days 16 to 21 and as there was a Sabbath on day 22 in month 1, it means this could only happen if Sabbaths were calculated from new moon day and were on days 8, 15, 22 & 29. This is an inescapable fact recorded in scripture and as said this 'lunar Sabbath calendar' can be also found in another 5 places in the Bible in both OT and NT. Why are you ignoring all these scriptures.

daqq; 'No comment - crickets.'

 

[daqq]

I have already told you more than once that this does not break any calendar rules as there are no verses that says it does. God is sovereign and if he wants to call Atonement a Sabbath then that's fine by me. It is you who is ignoring where Exodus chapter 16 shows (and also 5 other places in the Bible) God called day 22 a Sabbath in month 2, after the manna was collected on days 16 to 21 and as there was a Sabbath on day 22 in month 1, it means this could only happen if Sabbaths were calculated from new moon day and were on days 8, 15, 22 & 29. This is an inescapable fact recorded in scripture and as said this 'lunar Sabbath calendar' can be also found in another 5 places in the Bible in both OT and NT. Why are you ignoring all these scriptures.

daqq; 'No comment - crickets.'

If it is fine by you then why is it not a Shabbat shabbaton in the calendar which you call "God's Calendar"? Are you that dense? How many times did we already go over this in your own thread? How can you have a weekly Shabbat on the eighth and on the tenth? Answer the question then: what days on your supposed "God's Calendar" are the weekly Sabbaths in the seventh month? Is the eighth of the seventh month a Sabbath according to you? And if so then how can the tenth also be a Sabbath? You therefore do not believe the Torah no matter how much you wine and cry that you do: especially when this has already been explained to you in your own thread, and you certainly do not have "God's Calendar" if that calendar ignores the fact that Yom haKippurim is a Shabbat shabbaton of rest. A Shabbat shabbaton is the weekly Shabbat which you claim only falls on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th of each and every month. You cannot have it both ways according to your understanding of a yom except in your dreams.

 

[chair]

What makes you so sure the Jewish Calendar is the same as the Hebrew Calendar? The Hebrew Calendar is of Torah and Meshiah: the Jewish Calendar is of the Jews. The only thing that needs to be shown is one key place where your calendar does not comply with the Torah, (Yom haKippurim), and that is the end of the story: and of course that has already been done in another recent thread. The tenth of the seventh hodesh is a Shabbat shabbaton of rest, (and it is not observed as such in the modern Jewish Calendar).

When I say "Hebrew Calendar" I refer to the Jewish calendar. That is what we call it: "The Hebrew Calendar".

I have no idea why you think we don't observe Yom HaKippurim as a day of rest. You are simply wrong- you don't have your facts right.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

If it is fine by you then why is it not a Shabbat shabbaton in the calendar which you call "God's Calendar"? Are you that dense? How many times did we already go over this in your own thread? How can you have a weekly Shabbat on the eighth and on the tenth? Answer the question then: what days on your supposed "God's Calendar" are the weekly Sabbaths in the seventh month? Is the eighth of the seventh month a Sabbath according to you? And if so then how can the tenth also be a Sabbath? You therefore do not believe the Torah no matter how much you wine and cry that you do: especially when this has already been explained to you in your own thread, and you certainly do not have "God's Calendar" if that calendar ignores the fact that Yom haKippurim is a Shabbat shabbaton of rest. A Shabbat shabbaton is the weekly Shabbat which you claim only falls on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th of each and every month. You cannot have it both ways except in your dreams.

God calls Atonement a Sabbath. End of.

God calls day 22 month 2 a Sabbath and day 22 of month 1 a Sabbath. End of.

Therefore Sabbaths are on days 8, 15, 22 & 29. End of.

There is not one verse where God say this is not possible. This is just the way it is.

 

[chair]

It doesn't matter if YOU call it the Jewish or Hebrew calendar, it is not God's Calendar. Simply choosing to ignore the scriptures that explain God's Calendar only make YOU ignorant of scripture. In Exodus chapter 16 it shows (and also 5 other places in the Bible) the Sabbaths originally fell on days 8, 15, 22 & 29, because the manna was collected on days 16 to 21 and there was a Sabbath on day 22 in month 2 and also there was a Sabbath on day 22 in months 1, which could only happen if Sabbaths were calculated from new moon day. This is an inescapable fact recorded in scripture and as said this 'lunar Sabbath calendar' can be also found in another 5 places in the Bible in both OT and NT.

You have presented your theory in many other threads. It is not "God's Calendar"- it is just somebody's strange ideas. It fails on the simplest point of all- it ignores the regular 6 day work and 1 day rest cycle that is clearly spelled out in the Bible.

 

[daqq]

When I say "Hebrew Calendar" I refer to the Jewish calendar. That is what we call it: "The Hebrew Calendar".

I have no idea why you think we don't observe Yom HaKippurim as a day of rest. You are simply wrong- you don't have your facts right.

That is not what I said or meant: I know it is observed as a day of rest, but Shabbat shabbaton is the weekly Shabbat, and Yom haKippurim is a Shabbat shabbaton, which your calendar also does not observe because Yom haKippurim is allowed to drift through the days of the week.

 

[daqq]

God calls Atonement a Sabbath. End of.

God calls day 22 month 2 a Sabbath and day 22 of month 1 a Sabbath. End of.

Therefore Sabbaths are on days 8, 15, 22 & 29. End of.

There is not one verse where God say this is not possible. This is just the way it is.

Again, you have ignored Elohim where He tells you that Yom haKippurim is a Shabbat shabbaton of rest, even though it has been shown to you. You are therefore willfully ignorant. You cannot have Sabbaths on the 8th, 10th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th, no matter how desperately you dream it to be so.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

You have presented your theory in many other threads. It is not "God's Calendar"- it is just somebody's strange ideas. It fails on the simplest point of all- it ignores the regular 6 day work and 1 day rest cycle that is clearly spelled out in the Bible.

Read it for you self:

Exodus 16 ►
Manna and Quail

1The whole Israelite community set out from Elim and came to the Desert of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after they had come out of Egypt. 2In the desert the whole community grumbled against Moses and Aaron. 3The Israelites said to them, “If only we had died by the Lord’s hand in Egypt! There we sat around pots of meat and ate all the food we wanted, but you have brought us out into this desert to starve this entire assembly to death.”

4Then the Lord said to Moses, “I will rain down bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gather enough for that day. In this way I will test them and see whether they will follow my instructions. 5On the sixth day they are to prepare what they bring in, and that is to be twice as much as they gather on the other days.”

6So Moses and Aaron said to all the Israelites, “In the evening you will know that it was the Lord who brought you out of Egypt, 7and in the morning you will see the glory of the Lord, because he has heard your grumbling against him. Who are we, that you should grumble against us?” 8Moses also said, “You will know that it was the Lord when he gives you meat to eat in the evening and all the bread you want in the morning, because he has heard your grumbling against him. Who are we? You are not grumbling against us, but against the Lord.”

9Then Moses told Aaron, “Say to the entire Israelite community, ‘Come before the Lord, for he has heard your grumbling.’ ”

10While Aaron was speaking to the whole Israelite community, they looked toward the desert, and there was the glory of the Lord appearing in the cloud.

11The Lord said to Moses, 12“I have heard the grumbling of the Israelites. Tell them, ‘At twilight you will eat meat, and in the morning you will be filled with bread. Then you will know that I am the Lord your God.’ ”

13That evening quail came and covered the camp, and in the morning there was a layer of dew around the camp. 14When the dew was gone, thin flakes like frost on the ground appeared on the desert floor. 15When the Israelites saw it, they said to each other, “What is it?” For they did not know what it was.

Moses said to them, “It is the bread the Lord has given you to eat. 16This is what the Lord has commanded: ‘Everyone is to gather as much as they need. Take an omera for each person you have in your tent.’ ”

17The Israelites did as they were told; some gathered much, some little. 18And when they measured it by the omer, the one who gathered much did not have too much, and the one who gathered little did not have too little. Everyone had gathered just as much as they needed.

19Then Moses said to them, “No one is to keep any of it until morning.”

20However, some of them paid no attention to Moses; they kept part of it until morning, but it was full of maggots and began to smell. So Moses was angry with them.

21Each morning everyone gathered as much as they needed, and when the sun grew hot, it melted away. 22On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—two omers for each person—and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. 23He said to them, “This is what the Lord commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’ ”

24So they saved it until morning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. 25“Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a sabbath to the Lord. You will not find any of it on the ground today. 26Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.”

Day 22 in month 2 was a Sabbath and day 22 in month 1 was a Sabbath: Why do you deny what God says?

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Again, you have ignored Elohim where He tells you that Yom haKippurim is a Shabbat shabbaton of rest, even though it has been shown to you. You are therefore willfully ignorant. You cannot have Sabbaths on the 8th, 10th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th, no matter how desperately you dream it to be so.

Show me one verse where God say you can't.

 

[chair]

That is not what I said or meant: I know it is observed as a day of rest, but Shabbat shabbaton is the weekly Shabbat, and Yom haKippurim is a Shabbat shabbaton, which your calendar also does not observe because Yom haKippurim is allowed to drift through the days of the week.

Confusion reigns. Shabbat Shabbaton doesn't mean only the weekly Sabbath.

 

[daqq]

Confusion reigns. Shabbat Shabbaton doesn't mean only the weekly Sabbath.

Yes, it does, including weeks of years for the land. I've already shown this to be true in Watchman's thread. Prove your assertion by showing me anywhere in the Torah where that phrase is used of anything other than weeks. The only place you are going to find is going to concern Yom haKippurim because it is a Shabbat shabbaton of rest.

 

[daqq]

Again, you have ignored Elohim where He tells you that Yom haKippurim is a Shabbat shabbaton of rest, even though it has been shown to you. You are therefore willfully ignorant. You cannot have Sabbaths on the 8th, 10th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th, no matter how desperately you dream it to be so.

Show me one verse where God say you can't.

If you truly believe that you can have it that way then why is it not that way on the calendar which you say is "God's Calendar"? Surely you have an image file of the seventh month for what you call "God's Calendar"? I would love to see how that calendar observes a weekly Sabbath on the tenth while maintaining a weekly Sabbath two days before that on the eighth! Please post an image file of the seventh month, with the Sabbaths, from what you claim is God's Calendar: so that everyone may see how it has the Day of Atonement being observed as a weekly Sabbath. And if not then why are you trying to pretend that it does when you know it does not?

 

[chair]

Yes, it does, including weeks of years for the land. I've already shown this to be true in Watchman's thread. Prove your assertion by showing me anywhere in the Torah where that phrase is used of anything other than weeks. The only place you are going to find is going to concern Yom haKippurim because it is a Shabbat shabbaton of rest.

Here is your logic:
1. The term Shabbat Shabbaton is used for:
a. The weekly sabbath
b. Yom HaKippurim
c. The seventh year in the Sabbatical cycle

2. Therefore, b must be on the same day of the week as a.

 

[daqq]

Here is your logic:
1. The term Shabbat Shabbaton is used for:
a. The weekly sabbath
b. Yom HaKippurim
c. The seventh year in the Sabbatical cycle

2. Therefore, b must be on the same day of the week as a.

And here is your logic:
1. The term Shabbat shabbaton is used almost exclusively for the weekly Shabbat, except for one place, wherein it is used for the seventh year in the Sabbatical cycle, (weeks of years), but it is okay to ignore this fact when it comes to the most critically important Great Day of the year, Yom haKippurim.