The Gospel Of Thomas

[unknown]

Saying #4

Saying #4

(4) Jesus said, "The man old in days will not hesitate to ask a small child seven days old about the place of life, and he will live. For many who are first will become last, and they will become one and the same."

Jesus mentioned the first being last and the last being first in the NT. The NT version doesn't say that they will become the same. I'll let somebody else explain this one, I've never thought on it that much.

 

[unknown]

that is a good point.

it is no wonder that saying is absent from all the other gospels,

while at the same time, so many of the sayings are synoptic.

We'll see later on that Jesus also speaks of the left/right, the top/bottom, the inside/outside as well as man/woman. These are all the same, to me.

 

[jeremysdemo]

We'll see later on that Jesus also speaks of the left/right, the top/bottom, the inside/outside as well as man/woman. These are all the same, to me.

Indeed.

perhaps the coptic idiom is not being translated correctly into our anglo culture.

also the Stephen Patterson and Marvin Meyer makes this footnote before that passage:

[Saying probably added to the original collection at a later date:]

and this was the reason A4T rejects it?

I wonder if she has given the canonical gospels the same consideration based on later additions...?

Mark 16:9-20? there is no synopsis of that either....but I digress.

 

[unknown]

We don't have to take these in numerical order. The ground is still too wet to work and I'm just killing time waiting for others to join in.

 

[Pnevma]

We don't have to take these in numerical order. The ground is still too wet to work and I'm just killing time waiting for others to join in.

It’s the male and female… animus and anima… it forms the One.
Why do your threads keep taking me back to Jung?

And you haven’t mentioned reincarnation and the ‘one shot’ lifetime…

Did that help?

Hmmm probably not.

 

[unknown]

It’s the male and female… animus and anima… it forms the One.
Why do your threads keep taking me back to Jung?

And you haven’t mentioned reincarnation and the ‘one shot’ lifetime…

Did that help?

Hmmm probably not.

I had to google animus and anima and know nothing about Jung at all.

I think one or more of the logia deal with reincarnation, maybe some one will bring it up. Not sure what you mean by one shot lifetime.

 

[JosephR]

Jesus mentioned the first being last and the last being first in the NT. The NT version doesn't say that they will become the same. I'll let somebody else explain this one, I've never thought on it that much.

To me this speaks again of the origin or Creator spark all life comes from, a young child and a old man have much in common as far as their part of them that comes form the timeless , eternal Ceator. If a child can teach a old man then it is not worldly knowledge and must come from spiritual,and of course resonates of being babes in Christ in this case could be Christ is the babe.

 

[Pnevma]

I had to google animus and anima and know nothing about Jung at all.

I think one or more of the logia deal with reincarnation, maybe some one will bring it up. Not sure what you mean by one shot lifetime.

Sorry if I was being cryptic – so little time to post atm.

Maybe it’s the other way round and Jung was Gnostic – I can’t remember off had.

Jung’s anima and animus theorised that the unconscious has both male and female. So that would be the balance of us all at our core of being.

I thought Kabbalah works on the idea that we keep coming back until we achieve ‘fullness’ in one lifetime. Maybe Joe can clarify.

 

[unknown]

Sorry if I was being cryptic – so little time to post atm.

Maybe it’s the other way round and Jung was Gnostic – I can’t remember off had.

Jung’s anima and animus theorised that the unconscious has both male and female. So that would be the balance of us all at our core of being.

I thought Kabbalah works on the idea that we keep coming back until we achieve ‘fullness’ in one lifetime. Maybe Joe can clarify.

I heard some lectures years ago by a Gnostic guy out in California named Stephan Hoeller (spelling is probably wrong). He talked quite a bit about Jung. I think he was trying to say Jung thought like the Gnostics or was showing parallels between the two, I can't remember.

Yeah Kabbalah teaches reincarnation, many cultures do. The Kabbalists say we can't make all the corrections in one lifetime so we come back to make more corrections. They say we come back at the same level of correction that we let from.

I came into the world "different" than most of those around me. I can see the children being born today and it seems to me they are either smarter or dumber than my generation. We seem to have come to a fork in our development. I suspect the Kabbalists are right about what's happening to mankind.

 

[unknown]

To me this speaks again of the origin or Creator spark all life comes from, a young child and a old man have much in common as far as their part of them that comes form the timeless , eternal Ceator. If a child can teach a old man then it is not worldly knowledge and must come from spiritual,and of course resonates of being babes in Christ in this case could be Christ is the babe.

I think it could be about reincarnation like Pnevma suggested in addition to what you say here. Kabbalah says that all things were created from a tiny little spark of the "Light". Light is the Kabbalistic metaphor for The Creator. (you probably already know that but other readers may not).

If the Old man has wisdom he understands that he is soon going to the place the newborn came from and because the saying says they are the same, he will return from that place.

 

[Town Heretic]

I'm starting this thread due to a conversation in another thread. You're welcome to join in.

My personal thoughts on the logia.

"Great minds discuss ideas and concepts.

Frequently with phrases in Latin that really drive home the point...of who speaks Latin.

Average minds discuss things and places.

Like cartographers and travel agents. :thumb:

Small minds just talk about other people."

Darn small minded people. :think: Wait a minute...

Many great minds have discussed many great ideas over the course of the development of the human consciousness. Contributions to the collective consciousness have been added throughout something we call history. We can index these contributions by date.

But not by people or places, because that would make us small minded or average.

Being great takes constant vigilance. oly:

The Wiki article has info about the text and dating for those in doubt about what is believed about this text by others. How we know of it's existence from other texts (in their time) and so on.

You know, reliance on Wiki as authority might bring up a fourth category...

...as we go through the logia I will be asking for the origin (timewise) for the thought behind it. That will hopefully become more clear as/if the thread progresses.

I love an optimist. lain:

 

[unknown]

Frequently with phrases in Latin that really drive home the point...of who speaks Latin.


Like cartographers and travel agents. :thumb:


Darn small minded people. :think: Wait a minute...


But not by people or places, because that would make us small minded or average.

Being great takes constant vigilance. oly:


You know, reliance on Wiki as authority might bring up a fourth category...


I love an optimist. lain:

TH,

I didn't think you were the type of person to trash other peoples threads, I guess I never really paid attention. Now I know.

If you're not interested in this discussion, why do you bother? Does your life really suck that bad?

 

[Town Heretic]

TH,

I didn't think you were the type of person to trash other peoples threads, I guess I never really paid attention. Now I know.

Unknown, it was a single post in good fun aimed at a couple of minor points in approach and at someone I assumed had the sort of humor to appreciate and take them as good naturedly as offered.

I'm sorry if that wasn't apparent. Mea culpa. No harm intended. I wish you wouldn't be so quick to take offense though, let alone cobble a rule out of it.

 

[resurrected]

My personal thoughts on the logia.

Frequently with phrases in Latin that really drive home the point...of who speaks Latin.

:think:

lo·gi·on noun \ˈlō-gē-ˌän\
plural lo·gia \-gē-ˌä\ or logions
CloseStyle: MLA APA ChicagoDefinition of LOGION
: saying; especially : a saying attributed to Jesus
Origin of LOGION
Greek, diminutive of logos
First Known Use: 1864

Mea culpa.

:darwinsm:

 

[unknown]

Unknown, it was a single post in good fun aimed at a couple of minor points in approach and at someone I assumed had the sort of humor to appreciate and take them as good naturedly as offered.

I'm sorry if that wasn't apparent. Mea culpa. No harm intended. I wish you wouldn't be so quick to take offense though, let alone cobble a rule out of it.

seriously, I am getting ready to plow up ground when it dries up some more, lots of stuff going on here.

I am trying not to spend any more time on TOL than I have to. JosephR lives about 60 miles down the road from me. He seems bright and I started this thread to discuss these sayings with him and anyone else who has an interest. I'll be gone for sure when the ground dries up.

Congratulations on being the first OT post btw. I am always ready for that, that is what defines TOL. I don't take much of that lightly these days.


Do you remember me as edixon? I mentioned it before (since I moved and rejoined TOL as unknown.) Just wondering. That was when Glenda was here. She is a sweetheart.

 

[unknown]

:think:





:darwinsm:

I just like the word because it is closer to logos. Which was the word (saying) of The Creator. Logos is something many here can relate to.

Thanks for the definition, I didn't bother to look it up, it's not that big of a word.

 

[JosephR]

I think it could be about reincarnation like Pnevma suggested in addition to what you say here. Kabbalah says that all things were created from a tiny little spark of the "Light". Light is the Kabbalistic metaphor for The Creator. (you probably already know that but other readers may not).

If the Old man has wisdom he understands that he is soon going to the place the newborn came from and because the saying says they are the same, he will return from that place.

It may be, my limited knowledge of the kabbalah did not really get into that aspect. However I totally agree with that He is going to where the baby just came,back to the Creator.

Reincarnation to me makes sense on the level that, I dont think we can gain all we need to move on to greater things the Creator has in store for us in one lifetime. And I do not believe the Creator will destroy so quick that which He loves and Created.. so it kinda appeals to me. And I do not think the Creator would spoil His children with a perfect book or set of rules, I think He wants us to grow,learn and seek on our own,or else like the rich born child we would not respect that which is givin free and without labor and will not respect it.
And Jesus taught to always seek the truth, if the whole truth was all in one book He would have said, Just read this book over and over.

This outlook I also borrow from the Tao,Hermetic tradition, kabbalah , Jewish and Christian study. That would be my background I guess.

 

[Pnevma]

It may be, my limited knowledge of the kabbalah did not really get into that aspect. However I totally agree with that He is going to where the baby just came,back to the Creator.

Reincarnation to me makes sense on the level that, I dont think we can gain all we need to move on to greater things the Creator has in store for us in one lifetime. And I do not believe the Creator will destroy so quick that which He loves and Created.. so it kinda appeals to me. And I do not think the Creator would spoil His children with a perfect book or set of rules, I think He wants us to grow,learn and seek on our own,or else like the rich born child we would not respect that which is givin free and without labor and will not respect it.
And Jesus taught to always seek the truth, if the whole truth was all in one book He would have said, Just read this book over and over.

This outlook I also borrow from the Tao,Hermetic tradition, kabbalah , Jewish and Christian study. That would be my background I guess.

Great post, Joe – probably because I happen to agree with it all!
And excellent influences, imho.

I also set out to study the psyche some years back and have been amazed- dazzled, in fact.

My first influence (as a child) was Greek mythology, and it was no surprise to find that it also influenced the founding fathers of psychoanalysis.

 

[Pnevma]

I'll be gone for sure when the ground dries up.

Hi Unknown, sorry you’re thinking of leaving when I’ve only just met you. But I quite understand.

I’d really like a Kabbalah study group, but I can’t find one yet.
Shame it obviously can’t be done on TOL.

 

[Town Heretic]

seriously, I am getting ready to plow up ground when it dries up some more, lots of stuff going on here.

I am trying not to spend any more time on TOL than I have to. JosephR lives about 60 miles down the road from me. He seems bright and I started this thread to discuss these sayings with him and anyone else who has an interest. I'll be gone for sure when the ground dries up.

Again, sorry for interrupting it. I'm in a less than serious mood these days and it's easy to forget not everyone is up for that.

Congratulations on being the first OT post btw. I am always ready for that, that is what defines TOL. I don't take much of that lightly these days.

I did have a point under all that, but it wasn't a mean spirited one.

Do you remember me as edixon? I mentioned it before (since I moved and rejoined TOL as unknown.) Just wondering. That was when Glenda was here. She is a sweetheart.

:think: I likely would if I saw a post or two. Anyway, good luck with the thread and if I can think of something to contribute I'll chime in. Otherwise I promise to stretch my funny bone elsewhere.

I suppose I assumed it not being in the religion section that it was a bit less grave...the religion section being where very, very serious people tend to launch extremely serious threads and smiling is akin telling knock-knock jokes at a funeral

:e4e: