The expectation of the coming of the Messiah in Judaism was fulfilled in Yeshua.

Jacob

Jacob

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Shalom.

In Judaism there was an expectation of the coming of the Messiah. This is Yeshua.

Shalom.

Jacob
 
Nang

Nang

TOL Subscriber
chair said:
..and what was the Messiah expected to accomplish?
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The promise of His coming was to crush the head (power) of Satan. Genesis 3:15

Problem is, Jews deny there is a Satan.

So Jews have no basis upon which to recognize the Messiah that fulfilled the promise. (Hebrews 2:14-15)
 
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iamaberean

New member
Jacob said:
Shalom.

In Judaism there was an expectation of the coming of the Messiah. This is Yeshua.

Shalom.

Jacob
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Messiah has come and the Jews rejected him.

Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
These converted Jews never lived in Egypt where all of Israel had been under bondage.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
These Jews were of Abraham but not of Judea.

Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
These Jews that rejected Jesus were converted Jews.

Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Joh 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Joh 8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
Joh 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
Joh 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Joh 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
Joh 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
Joh 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

The Jews of today must accept the fact that Yeshua has already come as their Savior. This is known by Christians.
 
beameup

beameup

New member
Jacob said:
Shalom.

In Judaism there was an expectation of the coming of the Messiah. This is Yeshua.

Shalom.

Jacob
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His plan for National Israel was not fulfilled (gee, I wonder why?) ...but will be at the "Day of the LORD".
His greater plan for mankind (adam) was fulfilled.
 
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daqq

Well-known member
chair said:
Does anybody here read the Bible?
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Your question to Jacob concerned the Jewish expectation(s) of the Messiah. I answered from that perspective accordingly because that particular expectation is indeed found in many places in the ancient writings. The most important thing was that Messiah would come and fully expound the Torah so that it might be fully understood by the people. And that, by the way, is exactly what the Messiah did.
 
C

chair

Well-known member
daqq said:
Your question to Jacob concerned the Jewish expectation(s) of the Messiah. I answered from that perspective accordingly because that particular expectation is indeed found in many places in the ancient writings. The most important thing was that Messiah would come and fully expound the Torah so that it might be fully understood by the people. And that, by the way, is exactly what the Messiah did.
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What is your source for this?
I suggest that you read Isaiah 11. The entire chapter.
 
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daqq

Well-known member
chair said:
What is your source for this?
I suggest that you read Isaiah 11. The entire chapter.
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Not only have I read Isaiah 11 but studied it many times. I suggest you learn it by way of the doctrines, parables, teachings, and Testimony of the Messiah, rather than simply reading it. As for sources there are many, as I said, and no doubt you already know of plenty yourself.

Try the following page as merely an example and pay special attention to the sections I will quote below, (I do not necessarily agree with everything the author of the page proposes).

(Genesis 49:11 Binding his foal to the vine, and his ***’s colt to the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes; ) The Rabbis interpreted: ‘I,’ [said God], ‘am bound to the vine and the choice vine [Israel]. HIS FOAL AND HIS COLT intimate: when he will come of whom it is written, Lowly, and riding upon an ***, even upon a colt the foal of an *** (Zech. IX, 9).[5] HE WASHETH HIS GARMENTS IN WINE, intimates that he [the Messiah] will compose for them words of Torah[6]; AND HIS VESTURE IN THE BLOOD OF GRAPES-that he will restore to them their errors.[7] R. Hanin said: Israel will not require the teaching of the royal Messiah in the future, for it says, Unto him shall the nations seek (Isa. XI, 10), but not Israel.[8] If so, for what purpose will the royal Messiah come, and what will he do? He will Come to assemble the exiles of Israel and to give them [the Gentiles] thirty precepts, as it says, And I said unto them: ye think good, give me my hire; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my hire thirty pieces of silver (Zech. XI, 12).
Footnotes:
(5) Sc. the Messiah. It will then be seen how God is knit (‘bound’) to Israel.
(6) Propound new meanings and interpretations of the Torah.
(7) He will point out where they have misunderstood the Torah. v. infra. XCIX, 8 on this verse.
(8) For Israel will receive its teaching direct from God.
(Genesis 98:9, Soncino Midrash Rabbah, CD-ROM, Davka Corp.)
http://juchre.org/articles/torah.htm
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(Leviticus 7:11-12 And this is the Torah of the sacrifice of peace offerings, which he shall offer to the Lord. If he offers it for a thanksgiving, then he shall offer with the sacrifice of thanksgiving unleavened cakes mixed with oil, and unleavened wafers anointed with oil, and cakes mixed with oil, of fine flour, fried.) R. Phinehas and R. Levi and R. Johanan said in the name of R. Menahem of Gallia: In the Time to Come all sacrifices will be annulled, but that of thanksgiving will not be annulled, and all prayers will be annulled, but [that of] Thanksgiving will not be annulled. (Leviticus 9:7, Soncino Midrash Rabbah, CD-ROM, Davka Corp.)
http://juchre.org/articles/torah.htm
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(Ecclesiastes 11:8 And if many years lives a man, let him rejoice in them all; yet let him remember the days of darkness; for they shall be many. All that comes is vanity.) The Torah which a man learns in this world IS VANITY in comparison with the Torah [which will be learnt in the days] of the Messiah. (Ecclesiaste 11:7, Soncino Midrash Rabbah, CD-ROM, Davka Corp.)
http://juchre.org/articles/torah.htm
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1. "In the future the Holy One, blessed be He,... will expound to [the pious] the meanings of a new Tora which He will give them through the Messiah." (Alphabet Midrash of Rabbi Akiva) 2. [The new Tora] "means the secrets and mysteries of the Tora which have remained hidden until now. It does not refer to another Tora, heaven forfend, for surely the Tora which He gave us through Moses our Master, peace be upon him, is the eternal Tora; but the revelation of her hidden secrets is called 'new Tora.'" (Midrash Talpiyot)

3. "In the future the Holy One, blessed be He, will seat the Messiah in the supernal Yeshiva ["House of Study"], and they will call him 'the Lord,' just as they call the Creator.... And the Messiah will sit in the Yeshiva, and all those who walk on earth will come and sit before him to hear a new Tora and new commandments and the deep wisdom which he teaches Israel... [A]nd the Holy One, blessed be He, will reveal... rules of life, rules of peace, rules of alertness, rules of purity, rules of abstinence, rules of piety, rules of charity.... And no person who hears a teaching from the mouth of the Messiah will ever forget it, for the Holy One, blessed be He, will reveal Himself in the House of Study of the Messiah, and will pour his Holy Spirit upon all those who walk the earth, and His Holy Spirit will be upon each and every one. And each one in His House of Study will understand the Halakhot [laws, rules] on his own, the Midrashot [studies, interpretations, legends] on his own, the Tosafot [annotations, often referring to the 12th-14th-century commentaries on the Talmud and Rashi] on his own, the Aggadot [stories, folk tales] on his own, the traditions on his own, and each one of them will know on his own.... And even the slaves and the slave-women of Israel who were bought for money from the nations of the world, the Holy Spirit will rest upon them, and they will expound on their own." (The Messiah Texts by Raphael Patai, Yemenite midrash)
http://juchre.org/articles/torah.htm
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beameup

beameup

New member
May I suggest reading Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12 for Messiah's accomplishments so far.
Isaiah 54 would be yet future in regards to Israel:
For a small moment have I forsaken thee;
but with great mercies will I gather thee.
In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment;
but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee,
saith the LORD thy Redeemer. - Isaiah 54:7-8
 
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chair

Well-known member
daqq said:
Not only have I read Isaiah 11 but studied it many times. I suggest you learn it by way of the doctrines, parables, teachings, and Testimony of the Messiah, rather than simply reading it. As for sources there are many, as I said, and no doubt you already know of plenty yourself.
...
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parable and explain away as much as you like. With Jewish sources and Christian sources. The plain text of Isaiah 11 is clear about what the Messiah will do. And Jesus didn't do it.
 
beameup

beameup

New member
chair said:
parable and explain away as much as you like. With Jewish sources and Christian sources. The plain text of Isaiah 11 is clear about what the Messiah will do. And Jesus didn't do it.
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See my above post, re: Isaiah 52:13-53:12 and the yet future Isaiah 54.
Note the approx. 2,000 year "gap" between fulfillment.
A prophecy postponed doesn't mean a prophecy unfulfilled.

For a small moment (2,000 yrs. is but a "moment" in God's eyes) have I forsaken thee [Israel]; but with great mercies will I gather thee [Israel]. In a little wrath I hid my face from thee [Israel] for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee [Israel], saith the LORD thy Redeemer. - Isaiah 54:7-8
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Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
 
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daqq

Well-known member
chair said:
parable and explain away as much as you like. With Jewish sources and Christian sources. The plain text of Isaiah 11 is clear about what the Messiah will do. And Jesus didn't do it.
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To those without all things are given in parables. If I have a hundred children I live a thousand years in ten through them, (because I speak not physical offspring but of doctrine). You may look for the rest of your physical life for what it is you hope for according to a physical understanding; but it will never come because the kingdom of Elohim is within you, (Luke 17:20,21). You might as well be sitting at the feet of Judas the Galilean rebel, (circa 7-8CE).
 
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