The Establishment of the Minyan

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Ben Masada

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The Establishment of the Minyan

Ten Jewish men in Sodom would have saved the city from destruction. That's what a Minyan is, a group of ten Jewish men.

And the Lord appeared to Abraham and reported to him that Sodom and Gomorrah were doomed for destruction and the following dialogue took place:

Abraham: Would you destroy the righteous with the wicked? Assuming there were 50 righteous in the city, would you still destroy the city?

HaShem: No, I would spare the place for the 50 righteous ones.

Abraham: What about 45, would you proceed with the destruction?

HaShem: No, for 45 I would save the city.

Abraham: Okay, 40 righteous, would you stop with the plan to destroy the city?

HaShem: Yes, I would.

Abraham: Now, if you don't mind me, 30 righteous, would the city be spared?

HaShem: Yes, I would forgive the city if I found 30 righteous in there.

Abraham: If I be so bold, what about 20? Would you still destroy the city?

HaShem: No, I wouldn't.

Abraham: Be not my Lord angry if I speak only this last time. Perhaps 10, only 10 righteous, would the Lord spare the city?

HaShem: If I find 10 righteous in the city, the city is saved. And the Jewish Minyan had been established. (Genesis 18:23-32)

What is by definition the righteous in the context of this dialogue between HaShem and Abraham, sinless people? No, thousands of children went up in the smoke and they were all sinless as they were not subject to the Law. Righteous in this text is by definition the righteous People whether were they to be sinless or not. The bottom line is that if there was a Minyan of 10 adult Jews in Sodom and Gomorrah those cities would not have been destroyed.

Jesus must have read the above dialogue and concluded that "Salvation really comes from the Jews." (John 4:22) Then, Prophet Jeremiah declared that as long as Israel remains as a People before the Lord forever, the natural laws will never cease functioning properly. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)
 
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Wick Stick

Well-known member
10 Jewish men in Lot's Sodom would have been an anachronism, since Jacob wasn't even born at the time.

Jarrod
 
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chair

Well-known member
Wick Stick said:
10 Jewish men in Lot's Sodom would have been an anachronism, since Jacob wasn't even born at the time.

Jarrod
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I agree.
To the best of my knowledge the idea of a Minyan arose much later, even if the Rabbis connected it to Biblical verses.
 
B

Ben Masada

New member
The Establisment of the Minyan

The Establisment of the Minyan

Wick Stick said:
10 Jewish men in Lot's Sodom would have been an anachronism, since Jacob wasn't even born at the time.

Jarrod
Click to expand...

WS, I did not imply that there were ten righteous adult male Jews in the Sodom of the time of Lot. It would be indeed an anachronism. Evidence of the fact is that there were not. Hence, Sodom had to be destroyed. The point is that, the counting numbers of righteous ones went down from 50 and stopped at 10. Why not at 20 or 5? Because 10 is coincidentally, or purposely, the number of righteous adult male Jews required to form a Minyan. The same happened at the time of the Flood when there was not even a single Jew. Abraham had not been born yet. Now, if you forgive me the apparent arrogance, there had been at least a Minyan of ten adult male Jews at the time of Noah, probably the Flood would not have happened.
 
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RBBI

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You can see the connection between the Minyan and the ten righteous countdown, but you can't see any other connections like this, say like the 3 days Jonah was in the whale? Didn't it ever occur to you He might have done things just like that all the way through both sets of texts? Because He has. Peace
 
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Ben Masada

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RBBI said:
You can see the connection between the Minyan and the ten righteous countdown, but you can't see any other connections like this, say like the 3 days Jonah was in the whale? Didn't it ever occur to you He might have done things just like that all the way through both sets of texts? Because He has. Peace
Click to expand...

Okay, would you please help me see the connection between the 3 days and 3 nights that Jonah spent in the belly of the "whale" and the time Jesus spent in the tomb? (Mat. 12:40) If the text said "in three days" it would be okay but they guy who wrote that gospel said, as Jonah spent 3 days and 3 nights, would Jesus spent the same time in the tomb which is not true. Therefore, no connection but a hoax.
 
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Wick Stick

Well-known member
bybee said:
The first Covenant was with Abraham. He was very much alive at the time.
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That's true.

But Abraham was a Hebrew; not a Jew. A Jew is a descendant of Judah, who didn't even exist yet. I guess you could say Abraham had a little Jew in him, but he also had another 12 Israelite tribes in him, plus 12 Arab princes, the Edomites, and Ishmaelites. A "father of goyim" indeed.

Jarrod
 
B

Ben Masada

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The Establisment of the Minyan

The Establisment of the Minyan

Wick Stick said:
That's true.

But Abraham was a Hebrew; not a Jew. A Jew is a descendant of Judah, who didn't even exist yet. I guess you could say Abraham had a little Jew in him, but he also had another 12 Israelite tribes in him, plus 12 Arab princes, the Edomites, and Ishmaelites. A "father of goyim" indeed.

Jarrod
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Abraham was the first Jew in the sense that his descendants with whom the Covenant of the Lord with Him was made are the Jews. (Gen. 17:21) All covenants have force only while both parties are alive. The Jews are the part alive today. The other party being the Lord Himself is immortal.
 
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Ben Masada

New member
The Establisment of the Minyan

The Establisment of the Minyan

RBBI said:
You can see the connection between the Minyan and the ten righteous countdown, but you can't see any other connections like this, say like the 3 days Jonah was in the whale? Didn't it ever occur to you He might have done things just like that all the way through both sets of texts? Because He has. Peace
Click to expand...

Sorry RBBI, but this post of yours above makes no sense to me as I find no connection between the thread and the time Jonah spent in the belly of the whale.
 
PureX

PureX

Well-known member
Interesting. I had always heard the term "minyan" used to refer to a kind of "flunky", or a "yes-man"; a mindlessly obedient servant of some sort.

I wonder how that word morphed in that way?
 
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bybee

New member
PureX said:
Interesting. I had always heard the term "minyan" used to refer to a kind of "flunky", or a "yes-man"; a mindlessly obedient servant of some sort.

I wonder how that word morphed in that way?
Click to expand...

Minion is different from Minyan.
 
B

Ben Masada

New member
The Establishment of the Minyan

PureX said:
Interesting. I had always heard the term "minyan" used to refer to a kind of "flunky", or a "yes-man"; a mindlessly obedient servant of some sort.

I wonder how that word morphed in that way?
Click to expand...

A Minyan is a group of ten male righteous adult Jews in prayer.
 
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Wick Stick

Well-known member
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Interplanner

Well-known member
Sodom was not going to be saved by the presence of a Jewish minyan. That inserts genetics into it. The term was 'righteous' (sdk).
 
B

Ben Masada

New member
The Establishment of the Minyan

Interplanner said:
Sodom was not going to be saved by the presence of a Jewish minyan. That inserts genetics into it. The term was 'righteous' (sdk).
Click to expand...

Righteous adult Jews. There were thousands of children that had never committed a single sin. They were also righteous but Abraham meant 10 righteous adults Jews. That was an analogy for Abraham's descendants from Isaac and Jacob aka Israel in the near future. Probably a prophecy for the establishment of the Minyan. Abraham was a prophet. BTW, that dialogue between Elohim and Abraham took place in a dream/vision of the night.
 
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