The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: ...

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Elia

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Bs"d

"But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body.
13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. 14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

Ecc 12, New American Standard Bible

Don't throw God's laws overboard and replace them with paganism, like the Christians do.

You don't want to be a lawless pagan.

FEAR GOD, don't fear and worship a dead carpenter, you don't want to be an idol worshipper.


"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!”

Joshua 24:14-15
 

Epoisses

New member
The law was designed to teach you that you're a sinner. That is it's sole function! The plebes like yourself who keep it endlessly are so deceived they think they can make their flesh righteous or holy.
 

Elia

Well-known member
The law was designed to teach you that you're a sinner. That is it's sole function! The plebes like yourself who keep it endlessly are so deceived they think they can make their flesh righteous or holy.

Bs"d

"‘And every creeping thing that creeps on the earth shall be an abomination. It shall not be eaten. 42 Whatever crawls on its belly, whatever goes on all fours, or whatever has many feet among all creeping things that creep on the earth—these you shall not eat, for they are an abomination. 43 You shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creeps; nor shall you make yourselves unclean with them, lest you be defiled by them. 44 For I am Y-H-W-H your God. You shall therefore consecrate yourselves, and you shall be holy; for I am holy. Neither shall you defile yourselves with any creeping thing that creeps on the earth. 45 For I am Y-H-W-H who brings you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy."
Lev 11

The law makes us holy.

Throwing God's laws overboard and replacing them with paganism makes you a lawless pagan.


"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!”

Joshua 24:14-15
 

Epoisses

New member
In our day the pagans keep the law. Just take a look around, the world is multiplying laws upon laws to the point of insanity. The law is seen as the savior to those who reject the real one.
 

beameup

New member
In order to be a Jew, you must obey God's Sabbaths and Feasts.

And YHWH spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of YHWH, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. Leviticus 23:1-2

These are the feasts of YHWH, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons:
Passover - requires pilgrimage to Jerusalem each year
Unleavened Bread
First Fruits
Pentecost - requires pilgrimage to Jerusalem each year
Trumpets
Atonement
Tabernacles - requires pilgrimage to Jerusalem each year

Failure to obey means you are lawless and disobedient to God
 

6days

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Elia said:
FEAR GOD, don't fear and worship a dead carpenter, you don't want to be an idol worshipper.
Good advice Elia. We shouldn't worship any person, dead or alive. Only God is to be worshipped. Is.9:6 "And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father"
 

jamie

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LIFETIME MEMBER
These are the feasts of YHWH, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons:
Passover - requires pilgrimage to Jerusalem each year
Unleavened Bread
First Fruits
Pentecost - requires pilgrimage to Jerusalem each year
Trumpets
Atonement
Tabernacles - requires pilgrimage to Jerusalem each year

The Passover was actually a sacrifice done on the afternoon of the 14th.

The Feast of Passover required circumcision of the flesh for its observance.

The seven day Feast of Passover and the Days of Unleavened Bread coincide.

What you are calling First Fruits was not a holy convocation.

The Feast of Tabernacles was for the native born of Israel.

The seventh feast is the Eighth Day referred to by Jesus as the Great Day.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
The good part is those heathen muslims are going to get curb stomped then consumed by vultures.
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d

FEAR GOD, don't fear and worship a dead carpenter, you don't want to be an idol worshipper.

The irony is that you will end up worshipping a man - the False Christ (ie: Antichrist).
The False Messiah will have the "traits" that you have been DEMANDING of God (only it will be Satan the Devil in human form).
 

6days

New member
Nick M said:
The good part is those heathen muslims are going to get curb stomped then consumed by vultures.
Keep in mind that Christ Jesus shed His blood for all heathens....even me. During this Ramadan season, many many sincere Muslims encounter Jesus and accept Him as their Savior. As followers of Jesus, we should seek out 'heathen Muslims' to share the love of the true God.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Keep in mind that Christ Jesus shed His blood for all heathens....even me.

What makes you think they trust in his finished work at the cross and accept his reconciliation?

During this Ramadan season, many many sincere Muslims encounter Jesus and accept Him as their Savior.

I don't think so.

As Christians, you evangelize. To those who try to murder you, you defend yourself.
 

Elia

Well-known member
Good advice Elia. We shouldn't worship any person, dead or alive. Only God is to be worshipped. Is.9:6 "And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father"

Bs"d

Isaiah 9:2-7 "2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased its joy; they rejoice before thee as with joy at the harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as on the day of Mid'ian. 5 For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."

Please take notice of the fact that Isaiah is talking in the past tense: "The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.|

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder, and his name was called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

These are things which had happened already in the days of Isaiah.

If, despite these facts, you still want to apply these verses to JC, than read verse 5, 6, and 7, and see that JC didn't do any of those things. He never ruled on the throne of David, he never had any government on his shoulders, and there never was endless peace over his kingdom.

The same holds true for the verses 6 and 7: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."

All of this doesn't hold true for JC; he never had any government on his shoulder. And also here is spoken in the past tense: "A child is born, a son is given. But most translations give it in the future tense. For instance the RSV, NIV, NAS, ESV, KJV, NIRV, the all say; "His name will be called ....", future tense. However, in the Hebrew text this too is past tense: "His name was called ...." The Hebrew expression here is "wayikra". That is the first word in the book of Leviticus. And all the previously mentioned translations there say: "And the Lord called Mozes ..." Past tense. Exactly the same the word. Isn't that weird? Exactly the same word is used in Genesis 5:1; "And God called the light 'day'" Called. Past tense. Nobody argues with that one. But why then, in Isaiah 9, is it suddenly changed to future tense? The answer is simple: The past tense doesn't fit with the Christian theology, and therefore the Bible translations are corrupted and twisted to fit the Christian religion. Just like that. There is only one solution for this problem: Take a course in Biblical Hebrew. It is more easy then it looks. Then your eyes will be opened and the Christian deception will stare you in the face. And yes, I do sympathize with the poor misguided Christians whom are being led astray by their clergy by means of twisted and corrupted Bible translations. That's the reason why I fulfill my duty of being a light unto the nations and uncovering the Christian deception.
"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end" "There will be no end", future tense. And this too is WRONG. It is in the Hebrew present tense. I found only one translation which is correct here, and that is Young's Literal Translation.

Why all this stress on the tenses? Isaiah spoke about a king who was living in his days, about 2700 years ago. And therefore JC is out. The king that Isaiah speaks about is Hezekiah, the son of Achaz who got from Isaiah the sign about the young woman (no, not the virgin) who was pregnant and gave birth to the son Immanuel.
The Talmud explains that under the rule of the God fearing Hezekiah the Jewish kingdom rose to great heights, and that's why he was entitled to those impressive titles.


Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternal Father", (or "the Father is eternal") the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.


Apart from that, the Hebrew words "El gibor", in Christian Bibles translated with "Mighty God", can have a different meaning. "El" can mean "God", but it can also mean "judge", "leader", or "mighty man". In Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses that he will be of an elohiem for his brother Aharon. ("elohim" is the longer form of the word "el") This doesn't mean that Moses was a God for Aharon and Aharon started to worship his brother, it meant that Moses would be the leader of Aharon.
In Exodus 21:1-6 is spoken about a slave who after the normal period of servitude ended, doesn't want to leave his master. In that case the owner has to take him to court, where the slave will make a statement that he doesn't want to leave his master, and that he will serve his master until his death. The Hebrew text there says that his master must take him to the "elohim". There the NAS, ASV, ESV, NRSV, RSV, YLT, they all say that his master must take him "to God". However, his master doesn't take him for a ride to heaven, but takes him to the courthouse. Therefore the NIV, KJV, TNIV, and the NIRV, they all say that the master must take him to "the judges".

Even so in Isaiah 9 the word "El" does not necessarily mean "God". Therefore the text in Isaiah 9 is in no way a proof that the child spoken about was God.
 

Elia

Well-known member
In our day the pagans keep the law. Just take a look around, the world is multiplying laws upon laws to the point of insanity. The law is seen as the savior to those who reject the real one.

Bs"d

Pagans do paganism. Servants of God follow God's laws.

Christianity is lawless paganism and idolatry.


"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME
."

Ex 20:1+2
 

Elia

Well-known member
The irony is that you will end up worshipping a man - the False Christ (ie: Antichrist).

Bs"d

The irony is, that you ARE worshipping a man; a carpenter that lived 2000 years ago.

And that is of course idolatry, because God is not a man:

"God is not human, that he should lie" Num 23:19

"He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.” 1 Samuel 15:29

"For I am God, and not a man— the Holy One among you." Hosea 11:9


"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME
."

Ex 20:1+2
 

beameup

New member
The law was designed to teach you that you're a sinner. That is it's sole function! The plebes like yourself who keep it endlessly are so deceived they think they can make their flesh righteous or holy.

He's a hypocrite because he knows that Gentiles are only responsible for observing the NoHide Laws (Noah's Laws). Knowing this fact, he is supposed to be evangelizing the Gentiles and reminding them to obey the NoHide Laws.
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d

Pagans do paganism. Servants of God follow God's laws.

Christianity is lawless paganism and idolatry.

Hypocrite! You know very well that it's you responsibility to inform Gentiles to obey the 7 NoHide Laws.
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d

The irony is, that you ARE worshipping a man; a carpenter that lived 2000 years ago.

The irony is is that you will end up worshipping the "Messiah" that you desire, the one who will fulfill your particular "job description" and not the loving, gentle, and kind one who came in his Father's name.
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. - John 5:43
 

Elia

Well-known member
Hypocrite! You know very well that it's you responsibility to inform Gentiles to obey the 7 NoHide Laws.

Bs"d

And that's exactly what I do. When you look here: https://tinyurl.com/Notestament in the end, then you see that I call upon the non-Jews to take upon them the seven Noachide laws, which are mentioned there:

1) Establish courts of law.

2) Do not murder

3) Do not worship idols

4) Do not blaspheme

5) Do not steal.

6) Do not commit adultery

7) Do not eat the limbs of a live animal.

Unfortunately, many of those pagans calling themselves "Christians" refuse to heed my righteous words, and they keep on practising paganism, and they keep on worshipping a carpenter who died 2000 years ago.

So they remain idol worshiping pagans.

Unfortunately.

If they could only count to two...
 
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Elia

Well-known member
The irony is is that you will end up worshipping the "Messiah" that you desire, the one who will fulfill your particular "job description" and not the loving, gentle, and kind one who came in his Father's name.

Bs"d

That is not going to happen, for the simple reason that the Jewish messiah is going to be a 100% human, and not God, not the son of God, not divine, but totally human.

Also not born from a virgin, but from the normal union of man and woman.

And therefore nobody is going to worship the messiah.

The irony is and remains, that you ARE worshipping a man; a carpenter that lived 2000 years ago.

So it is you who is an idol worshipper.


"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME
."

Ex 20:1+2
 

6days

New member
Elia said:
*Isaiah 9:2-7*...
These are things which had happened already in the days of Isaiah.
Who in Isiah's day was called Father of Etetnity?*

The chapter is obviously a prophecy of One who would come.
Elia said:
*
If, despite these facts, you still want to apply these verses to JC, than read verse 5, 6, and 7, and see that JC didn't do any of those things. He never ruled on the throne of David, he never had any government on his shoulders, and there never was endless peace over his kingdom.
Many Jews at the time of Jesus rejected Him for the same rwasons you do. They were expecting an earthy kingdom. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy perfectly. Its interesting that Jesus is a rightful heir to the throne of David through both Joseph and Mary' s geneaologies.*
Elia said:
...And also here is spoken in the past tense: "A childis born, a son*is given. ...
Its not quite as simple as that, since the Hebrew does not use past or future tense verbs in the same way English does. There are other instances in scripture where prophecy in tbe English uses a past tense verb, but referring to a future action. Ex.*

Isaiah 5:13 "Therefore My people are gone into captivity, for want of knowledge; and their honorable men are famished, and their multitude are parched with thirst"

Elia said:
And yes, I do sympathize with the poor misguided Christians whom are being led astray by their clergy by means of twisted and corrupted Bible translations.
I appreciate your concern Elia. We should be concerned for those whom we think are lead astray. *

Elia said:
Why all this stress on the tenses? Isaiah spoke about a king who was living in his days, about 2700 years ago.....
However, Hezekiah was not called mighty God, or Father of Eternity....as that would have been blasphemy.*
Elia said:
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; inExodus 6:23*is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God".*II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9*wasn't God.
None of your examples are equivolent. You are giving the defintion to various names. The verae from Youngs literal..."And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace."
 
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