ECT The Abandonement of 2 Thess 2

Interplanner

Well-known member
With 'departure' (as in re-materialization) out of the question, 'apostasia' becomes more interesting if we consider that it sometimes has to do with real estate and/or divorce (BDF Lexicon). Look at them from both directions. There is no clear indication from the passage as to who is doing the forsaking:

Real estate:
This would mean the rebellious party is considered to have abandoned the 'property' which God wanted them to have. The unbelieving Jews of that generation did not take up the mission God wanted them to do.
Or, if God is doing the abandoning, God abandoned them and abandoned that property.

Divorce:
Is Israel being abandoned for not taking up the mission of the Gospel? Or is Israel the one who is abandoning the marriage?
 

Danoh

New member
With 'departure' (as in re-materialization) out of the question, 'apostasia' becomes more interesting if we consider that it sometimes has to do with real estate and/or divorce (BDF Lexicon). Look at them from both directions. There is no clear indication from the passage as to who is doing the forsaking:

Real estate:
This would mean the rebellious party is considered to have abandoned the 'property' which God wanted them to have. The unbelieving Jews of that generation did not take up the mission God wanted them to do.
Or, if God is doing the abandoning, God abandoned them and abandoned that property.

Divorce:
Is Israel being abandoned for not taking up the mission of the Gospel? Or is Israel the one who is abandoning the marriage?

All that just to point out the obvious that the Scripture makes obvious - that 2 Thess. 2:2 is referring to "a falling away" or "the departure" from Moses.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant. 11:23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people. 11:24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.

Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

Daniel 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Daniel 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
All that just to point out the obvious that the Scripture makes obvious - that 2 Thess. 2:2 is referring to "a falling away" or "the departure" from Moses.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant. 11:23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people. 11:24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.

Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

Daniel 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Daniel 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


Nonsense. It was written after Christ, and so everything has to be viewed in that light. Notice how you skipped Dan 9 which is so symbolic about talking to you about anything. Comments, comments about everything but the main passages that matter THAT THE NT USES TO INTERPRET THESE THINGS!!! Ie, you can't read Dan 9 without Dan 8 where 'rebellion that desolates' is introduced.

Moses spoke of Christ. Moses said when Christ came, that generation was supposed to heed him.

The zealots and insurrectionists did do things against Moses law, no doubt, but it is not the same as before Christ. Now with Christ's mission on the table, you have the whole problem of them seeking a messianic theocracy when they should have been in Christ's mission like Paul. But you know nothing of this because you do the NT in a vacuum called D'ism instead of in history where it happened, and despise outside sources, even though Paul quoted them, and despise the hero of Christianity in the early 1800s with his monumental work on Josephus relative to the Divinity of Christ.
 

Danoh

New member
Nonsense. It was written after Christ, and so everything has to be viewed in that light. Notice how you skipped Dan 9 which is so symbolic about talking to you about anything. Comments, comments about everything but the main passages that matter THAT THE NT USES TO INTERPRET THESE THINGS!!! Ie, you can't read Dan 9 without Dan 8 where 'rebellion that desolates' is introduced.

Moses spoke of Christ. Moses said when Christ came, that generation was supposed to heed him.

The zealots and insurrectionists did do things against Moses law, no doubt, but it is not the same as before Christ. Now with Christ's mission on the table, you have the whole problem of them seeking a messianic theocracy when they should have been in Christ's mission like Paul. But you know nothing of this because you do the NT in a vacuum called D'ism instead of in history where it happened, and despise outside sources, even though Paul quoted them, and despise the hero of Christianity in the early 1800s with his monumental work on Josephus relative to the Divinity of Christ.

No, fool, I don't despise sources external to Scripture - I despise your over reliance on them and its resulting inability in you - unless you are reasoning the result of your over reliance into Scripture - you ever need some one to spoonfeed you what they are talking about.

You are an amateur who has long since become an expert at being said amateur.

Fool - you might as throw your Bible away - it does not appear to be "the hero" within your over reliance.

Your over reliance...

Your over reliance...

Your over reliance...
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
But the question would be when did the relation between God and Israel die, because it is (part of) Israel that is going to 'apostadzo.'

The marriage to the Israel of Jacob ended when Christ died. (Romans 7:4)
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
The marriage to the Israel of Jacob ended when Christ died. (Romans 7:4)


But God keeps appealing to Israel long into Acts--not that the crucifixion can be undone, but to join the mission of the Gospel. The rebellion that desolated Israel is the act that was irretrieveable.
 

Danoh

New member
But God keeps appealing to Israel long into Acts--not that the crucifixion can be undone, but to join the mission of the Gospel. The rebellion that desolated Israel is the act that was irretrieveable.

Oh brother and sheesh!

Your notions ever remind me of those misinformed pre-1950's mobster movies.

Where the mob guys receive weekly pay from their boss and "a contract" has an extra bonus, lol

Turns out the mob guys are the ones who have to earn money for the boss and contract killings are just part of their world.

That's you - ever stuck in your centuries old ideas about some sort of Israel's failed mission impossible :rotfl:
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
But God keeps appealing to Israel long into Acts--not that the crucifixion can be undone, but to join the mission of the Gospel. The rebellion that desolated Israel is the act that was irretrieveable.

The Most High sent Christ to offer the kingdom of God to Israel, his firstborn son. Because of the indifference of many of Israel the Gentiles were welcomed to be grafted into Israel, and the Israel of Jacob were no longer considered Jews. Circumcision became irrelevant.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
The Most High sent Christ to offer the kingdom of God to Israel, his firstborn son. Because of the indifference of many of Israel the Gentiles were welcomed to be grafted into Israel, and the Israel of Jacob were no longer considered Jews. Circumcision became irrelevant.


That's pretty close; I just hope you are NOT playing 'Jacob' off of _____, or some other subdivision.
 
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Danoh

New member
Acts 28:25. Every post is just proof you don't know scripture.

Your citing of Acts 28:25 proves you know "about" it, NOT "know" it.

That is all it proves.

You make the mistake of the Acts 28 Position in all its forms; including Preterism (lol - and its forms).

The Apostle Paul is NOT quoting Isaiah there as some sort of a fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy within Acts 28's point in history, anymore than the Lord was asserting the fulfillment of Isaiah's words as to that during His earthly ministry some decades earlier, when He too had quoted that same Isaian passage.

Rather, the Lord's and Paul's intended sense is the same as the Spirit's in...

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
The vision of the mission of Israel is found in the middle of Romans 10 with its progression of questions. Obviously Israel was supposed to be in the mission. This indicates a progression in Romans. 3:3's and 9:1's 'why don't all of Israel believe?' is now 'why aren't they in the mission?'

The answer is again that God does not pick whole ethnes at a time. People must have faith and they stand or fall on that. The collective group of all those who have faith are the Israel of God, in Romans and Galatians, although I don't know that that matters to D'ists.
 
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