Son of Ham

[Jefferson]

Son of Ham

Monday July 10th, 2006. This is show #136.

Summary:
* Diced HAM: Russia killed Islamic terrorist sHAMil Basayev today in retaliation for the more than 330 people, half of them children, murdered at the Beslan School Massacre. Many terrorists and terror groups have HAM, in their names, H-A-M. NYC’s Holland Tunnel terrorist Assem HAMmoud; HAMbali, southeast Asia's Osama; HAMas; 9-11’s MoHAMmed Atta; Al Qaeda's Kahlid Sheikh MoHAMmad; terrorist sympathizer/sniper John Alvin MoHAMmad; MuHAMmad Abu Abbas; and many others; and now, dead schoolhouse terrorist SHAMil Basayev. Europeans descend from Noah's son Japeth; Jews and others (Semites) from Shem; and Orientals and others from Ham (Hamitic). Ham fathered Canaan (the Canaanites) by incest with his mother (Noah's wife), and various Canaanites and Semites intermarried, and through biblical times warred against the Israelites. And today, the short history of the world continues with the ethnic and cultural descendants of various Canaanite tribes confirming their Hamitic origins.
* Uncooked HAM: Our Bob Enyart Live law enforcement analyst is 40-year Denver police veteran Dale Squier. Dale criticized the decision to allow a man to board a Houston flight even though: his luggage contained a Quran and a 9-volt battery taped to a clock; he had a Middle Eastern name and he lied about having a laptop in his bag. The passengers name has been withheld.
Today's Resource: With the recent death of Patsy Ramsey, one of JonBenet's murderers, we invite you to read our report, The Clue that Breaks the Case.

 

[Evee]

So far I have only read to stories you provided I had always believed that Noah's nakedness meant his son had did a incestious homosexual act with Noah while drunk..Thanks that helped me understand.
Also as the murder of JonBenet the evidence points to the parents they got away with it if it is true,Which it seems a good posibility.

 

[Jukia]

I have a friend with a criminal justice/psychology degree. She thinks the brother was abusing his sister, things got out of hand and she died. That the parents covered up to protect the brother. As good a theory as any I think

 

[Evee]

That has crossed my mind also.

 

[Fensanity]

I don't see how you get "incest" out of Gen 9 by taking it in context of the surounding verses (events).

21He drank of the wine and became drunk, and uncovered himself inside his tent.
22Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside.
23But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it upon both their shoulders and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were turned away, so that they did not see their father's nakedness.
24When Noah awoke from his wine, he knew what his youngest son had done to him....

This is interesting though...
Hab 2

15"Woe to you who make your neighbors drink,
Who mix in your venom even to make them drunk
So as to look on their nakedness!

KJV ~ "and he was uncovered" comes from the Hebrew galah, which means:

a primitive root; to denude (especially in a disgraceful sense); by implication, to exile (captives being usually stripped); figuratively, to reveal

+ advertise, appear, bewray, bring, (carry, lead, go) captive (into captivity), depart, disclose, discover, exile, be gone, open, X plainly, publish, remove, reveal, X shamelessly, shew, X surely, tell, uncover.

~ Strong's

BE said something like, "Ancient Hebrew commonly speaks of a man’s nakedness to refer to sexual intercourse with the man’s wife." http://kgov.com/docs/CanaanCursed.html

"nakedness" from the Hebrew ervah which means:

from arah; nudity, literally (especially the pudenda) or figuratively (disgrace, blemish)
nakedness, shame, unclean(-ness).

~ Strong's

The same word for nakedness is used again in verse 23. I don't think it implies incest but just shame. So Lev 20 says something like, " “The man who lies with his father’s wife has uncovered his father’s nakedness.” Which would also bring shame to the father. 1)Being passed out drunk would bring you shame, 2) your son having sex with your wife would also bring you shame.

Hab 2

15"Woe to you who make your neighbors drink,
Who mix in your venom even to make them drunk
So as to look on their nakedness!

Maybe I am wrong, could some one explain?

 

[Jefferson]

Maybe I am wrong, could some one explain?

Uncovering someone's nakedness is just another one of many Biblical figures of speech. Translating each word individually does not render the meaning "incest" but observing how the phrase was used elsewhere in scripture reveals it's meaning.

 

[Turbo]

I don't see how you get "incest" out of Gen 9 by taking it in context of the surounding verses (events).

Maybe I am wrong, could some one explain?

Did you read this article that was linked in the opening post?

 

[Fensanity]

could you adress the context issue of Gen 9.

It seems Hab 2 better fits and applies to gen 9 than that other verse (Lev).... yet that doesn't mean "nakedness" means to get some one drunk ~ not even in Hab 2.

But you think the verses in Gen say this? :
21He drank of the wine and became drunk, and uncovered himself inside his tent.
22Ham, the father of Canaan, commited incest with His mother (Noah's wife) bringing noah shame, and told his two brothers outside.
23But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it upon both their shoulders and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were turned away, so that they did not see their father's nakedness.
24When Noah awoke from his wine, he knew what his youngest son had done to him....


Please tell me how Shem and Japheth's actions corrispond with what you believe the text says?

Also concerning the word "nakedness" I was using a broad definition that I thought adressed its overall meaning... sure better words could be used in context.

Could you show me a Hebrew scholar that agrees this means incest (with explanation)?

The figurative phrase was usually used after making the point to denote some form of shame... or so it seems. Not to denote a specific act, or can you show me where I am wrong? There for wouldn't it be correct to assume that Noah's nakedness was seen in that of the general context of Hab 2... being that He was drunk? Or even simpler than that, that Noah's nakedness was seen in the context of what Gen 9 says?

Let me know

 

[Fensanity]

Did you read this article that was linked in the opening post?

That is where I got the quote from, and I think I have that link in my post.

 

[Turbo]

That is where I got the quote from, and I think I have that link in my post.

Oops! Sorry, I missed that.

 

[Fensanity]

I went back and read Bob's thing again...

I guess what I am failing to see is the leap from the statement of shame to the statement of a direct act. When the direct act is not talked about except for it being drunkenness. Like I thought Hab 2 was talking about... Bob says though :

And Habakkuk condemns not the sin of homosexuality but of getting your neighbor drunk in order to seduce his wife, when he warns: “Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbor, pressing him to your bottle, even to make him drunk, that you may look on his nakedness!”

I am failing to see where he makes the jump from seeing their "nakedness" to sex with the man's wife also, when the only direct act talked about is drunkenness.

Aren't the other verses as far as the sexual imorality of it always directly stated? and than the statement of shame aplied?

I'll be back in a while

 

[Toast]

Fensanity, I normally dont post on these forums a whole lot, but after reading your comments in this thread, I just have to tell ya, your completely totally over analyzing this matter. I mean, its obvious its talking about incest, why else would Noah curse Canaan? According to your interpretation, it was Ham that brought shame to Noah by uncovering his nakedness, so if anyone is going to be cursed, it should be Ham, not his son Canaan. But Noah cursed Canaan, and thats because Canaan would be born out of an incestuous relationship, unfortunatly for him.

 

[rojo]

Son of Ham

You asked for a second witness to the events that took place in regard to the father of Canaan.
Well here it is and it can be found at; http://americanwisdomseries.com/
Click on Genesis in the left column and then on Pamphlets #6246, #6247 and #6248.

The following is a direct quote from those pamphlets.

Gen. 9:18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.

We are going to see in the next few verses why is Canaan is mentioned here.

[19] These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.

So they did go make babies! Obeying God's commands is not all that burdensome and difficult as liberals would tell us, is it?

The whole eretz, and eventually the whole earth, was overspread with sons and daughters of Adam's descendents.

[20] And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
[21] And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

Remember, Noah was perfect in his generations, his genealogy. So he drank a little too much wine. Nobody's perfect.

[22] And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

So what do you think? Did Ham see his father in the nude and run outside and tell his two brothers, "Hey guys, Dad's naked, like in his birthday suit"? And they said, "Oh my gosh, we can't see him naked. Let's take a garment and go in backwards and cover him up, 'cause we sure can't see him without his clothes on."

That's about the dumbest interpretation a person could come up with. Even if Noah had popped a few Viagra pills, men seeing each other naked is no big deal. Common sense, and the use of locker rooms, document it.

Let's read the next verse and then see what really happened.

[23] And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

What does the expression "to uncover your father's nakedness mean"?

Leviticus 18:8
The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

Let's quote this verse from the Moffat translation:

Leviticus 18:8You shall not have intercourse with any wife of your father. (Moffat)

Is that plain enough?

To "uncover your father's nakedness" means to have sex with your father's wife (who may or may not be your mother). Read Leviticus 20:11:

Leviticus 20:11
And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

So what did Ham do? Well, Noah was "drunk as a skunk" (skunks don't actually drink alcohol but their name rhymes with "drunk" and so it makes a great expression), and quite possibly Noah's wife, though it doesn't say and I'm not accusing her. It just looks like there was a party going on at the Noah residence, based on knowing what happened.
Ham took advantage of the situation and seduced his mother, Noah's wife, i.e. he "uncovered his father's nakedness". Yes, that is incest. He then told his two brothers, Shem and Japheth, who would have nothing to do with the affair, and so they two went in backwards with a garment and covered up their mom (who was probably passed out on the bed. Relax, I said "probably").

[24] And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

When Noah "awoke from his wine", which means came to his senses or became sober, Noah found out that Ham had seduced his wife. And he was not "a happy camper".

And guess what? Ham did not practice "safe sex", because there were no public schools and government programs around to educate him properly. And so his mother became pregnant and bare a child to Ham, her son. His name was Canaan.

In the course of time, in his anger over what had taken place, Noah put a curse on Canaan. Please read the following passages carefully. It is Noah who places the curse, not God!

[25] And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

Again, it was Noah who cursed Canaan, not God. God did not curse Canaan!

One more thing must be said about this sordid affair, and that is that there is NO NEW RACE of people being created here. Ham and his mother were purebred descendants of Adam, i.e. "white folk", perfect in their "generations", remember?

For any teacher, preacher or minister to insult the Black Race, by telling them that their people were brought into being by an incestuous affair between Ham and his mother should be ASHAMED of themselves and hang their heads in DISGRACE. It makes one want to "puke" at their ignorance and their stupidity. How can they claim to know God and think He would do such a thing?

Our Father created the races on the sixth day and He BLESSED them, not cursed them, and He pronounced them VERY GOOD and He loves them all dearly!

Back to Noah.

[26] And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
Who said? Noah said.
[27] God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
[28] And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.
[29] And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.

The lesson of chapter nine is really short and simple: Don't listen to stupidity!

 

[Fensanity]

When I first heard Bob's argument I went and read the chapter, his argument didn't seem to fit in the context of the brothers actions.

So I just have been digging a little deaper is all.

It wasn't uncommon for curses to be placed upon one's son for crimes the son didn't commit. Or for suffering to be inflicted on the children for the parents crimes.

Noah was degraded by his son, So he cursed one of Ham's sons. Having a cursed son isn't a blessing.

There are other speculations that people have made after this as to why canaan ect... but I think they would be just that speculations, so I won't get into those right now.

Also, does anyone know, is the fact that Ham is refered to as the father of Canaan before he sees his fathers nakedness, the reason many people think Canaan was already alive before this happened?

EDIT: it also might have something to do with this whole time they where supose to be being fruitful and multiply and than ontop of that Canaan is mentioned as son of Ham before the actual dead took place?

 

[truthteller86]

You asked for a second witness to the events that took place in regard to the father of Canaan.

Well here it is and it can be found at; http://americanwisdomseries.com/
Click on Genesis in the left column and then on Pamphlets #6246, #6247 and #6248.

The following is a direct quote from those pamphlets.

Red, I gave you a :thumb: rep for that post, but after a little curious browsing on the link site I feel an unrestrainable urge to issue a brotherly OV v. SV Alert atrol: :

From: http://americanwisdomseries.com/1026.html

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto bedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Who are these "elect" according to the foreknowledge of God the Father? The word eklektos (elect) comes from eklegomai (chosen),
and what Peter is saying is that there was a time, long ago,
when our Father "chose" those who deserved to be chosen
to be used by Him whenever and however He so chooses!

Just a friendly observation....(I know just b/c we link, that does not mean we endorse other site content) however it was a "Christian" site...that just caught me off guard....sorry for any distraction :shut:

 

[Jefferson]

It wasn't uncommon for curses to be placed upon one's son for crimes the son didn't commit.

It never happened. Not even once, because it would contradict the entire chapter of Ezekiel 18:

1The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 "What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:

'The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children's teeth are set on edge'?

3 "As I live," says the Lord God, "you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

4 "Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.
5 But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right;
6 If he has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor's wife,
Nor approached a woman during her impurity;
7 If he has not oppressed anyone,
But has restored to the debtor his pledge;
Has robbed no one by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not exacted usury
Nor taken any increase,
But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
And executed true judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully--
He is just;
He shall surely live!"
Says the Lord God.

10 "If he begets a son who is a robber
Or a shedder of blood,
Who does any of these things
11 And does none of those duties,
But has eaten on the mountains
Or defiled his neighbor's wife;
12 If he has oppressed the poor and needy,
Robbed by violence,
Not restored the pledge,
Lifted his eyes to the idols,
Or committed abomination;
13 If he has exacted usury
Or taken increase--
Shall he then live?
He shall not live!
If he has done any of these abominations,
He shall surely die;
His blood shall be upon him.

14 "If, however, he begets a son
Who sees all the sins which his father has done,
And considers but does not do likewise;
15 Who has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor's wife;
16 Has not oppressed anyone,
Nor withheld a pledge,
Nor robbed by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
17 Who has withdrawn his hand from *the poor
And not received usury or increase,
But has executed My judgments
And walked in My statutes--
He shall not die for the iniquity of his father;
He shall surely live!

18 "As for his father,
Because he cruelly oppressed,
Robbed his brother by violence,
And did what is not good among his people,
Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.
Turn and Live
19 "Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord God, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways," says the Lord God. "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord God. "Therefore turn and live!"

 

[rojo]

Son of Ham

truthteller86 said;

but after a little curious browsing on the link site I feel an unrestrainable urge to issue a brotherly OV v. SV Alert

I get that same response from many Christians, who are following the Traditions of Man rather then studying God’s Word, line by line, Chapter by Chapter.

From that same site I might suggest that you read GOD’S PLAN at the following link;

http://americanwisdomseries.com/PlanofGodtoc.html

You will also find an excellent study on God’s Elect at the following site;

http://www.biblestudysite.com/elect.htm

Remember that much of what you read may be new to you even after many years of being a Christian. Do not let that scare you off as we all are, right now, in that famine of Amos 8:11

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

Amos 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

Amos 8:13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

Agape’

Ross

 

[rojo]

Son of Ham

Jefferson said “It never happened. Not even once, because it would contradict the entire chapter of Ezekiel 18:”

Yes you are right, that chapter in Ezekiel is explaining the sins as referred to in the sins of the father being passed on to the third and fourth generation as cited in the second Commandment.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

To understand Ezekiel 18 there is a good Bible study on that Chapter at the following location;
http://www.theseason.org/ezekiel/ezekiel18.htm

I hope that will help.

 

[Fensanity]

It was common to bless the father of a son, for the son's actions. Or to curse the son for a father's actions.

Just as Jesse was recognized as the father of David after david killed big G.

And than there is the case with Solomon. The kingdom wouldn't be torn from Solomon for the sake of His father, David (Solomon had done evil with the whole worshiping other gods because of his wives ect...). But the kingdom would be torn apart from Solomon's son.

1 Kings 11 : 9 The LORD became angry with Solomon because his heart had turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice. 10 Although he had forbidden Solomon to follow other gods, Solomon did not keep the LORD's command. 11 So the LORD said to Solomon, "Since this is your attitude and you have not kept my covenant and my decrees, which I commanded you, I will most certainly tear the kingdom away from you and give it to one of your subordinates. 12 Nevertheless, for the sake of David your father, I will not do it during your lifetime. I will tear it out of the hand of your son. 13 Yet I will not tear the whole kingdom from him, but will give him one tribe for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem, which I have chosen."

Jer 32 : 18who shows lovingkindness to thousands, but repays the iniquity of fathers into the bosom of their children after them, O great and mighty God The LORD of hosts is His name;

Ex 20: 5"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

So than how do you reconcile that with Ezek 18

20"The person who sins will die The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

First of all when God is bringing punishment on the sons for their fathers' sins the sons also have walked in the paths of their fathers. So the sons have no right to complain in this case.

Sometimes the innocent do suffer for a time. But God has the power to bring good out of bad situations. But as far as eternal suffering each one will be held accountable for his own ways. Is not the death talked about in ezek 18 chiefly the "second death" talked about in the new testament?

 

[Jefferson]

When a father is a drunkard it affects how the children are raised, their personalities, their opportunities, their inheritance, etc. And that affects their children as well. It has nothing to do with God coming down out of heaven to adversely manipulate the events in the lives of the drunkard's grandchildren.