Signs of the times

[fzappa13]

In each successive generation after the death of Christ there have been proponents of the idea that theirs' would be the generation to see His return. To this point all have been wrong (unless you're a Preterist in which case this thread probably isn't for you). As of late, more and more folks have begun to suggest that we are indeed heading into what Jesus referred to as "the last days." I would like to offer this thread as an opportunity to catalog what any given individual is seeing that makes them feel this may well be true and the scripture supporting their assertion. I'll throw a little something out there to get things started.



Dan 12: 1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Travel and knowledge have reached unprecedented levels during our lives. Indeed there are people still alive today that have seen us go from the horse and buggy that had served humanity so well for all these millennia to what we see today in an alarmingly short period of time. This change was, in part, driven by a parallel increase in knowledge. While, in and of itself, you likely couldn't point to this development as irrefutable proof that we are on the cusp of the day spoken of here by Daniel it is, I think, a brick in the wall toward building a foundation for that argument.

 

[JudgeRightly]

In each successive generation after the death of Christ there have been proponents of the idea that theirs' would be the generation to see His return. To this point all have been wrong (unless you're a Preterist in which case this thread probably isn't for you). As of late, more and more folks have begun to suggest that we are indeed heading into what Jesus referred to as "the last days." I would like to offer this thread as an opportunity to catalog what any given individual is seeing that makes them feel this may well be true and the scripture supporting their assertion. I'll throw a little something out there to get things started.



Dan 12: 1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Travel and knowledge have reached unprecedented levels during our lives. Indeed there are people still alive today that have seen us go from the horse and buggy that had served humanity so well for all these millennia to what we see today in an alarmingly short period of time. This change was, in part, driven by a parallel increase in knowledge. While, in and of itself, you likely couldn't point to this development as irrefutable proof that we are on the cusp of the day spoken of here by Daniel it is, I think, a brick in the wall toward building a foundation for that argument.

Jesus meant exactly what He said when He said:

When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt.10.23&version=NKJV

We've been in the last days since then.

The reason He hasn't returned is because, as described in Jeremiah 18, circumstances changed that prevented Christ from returning, that meant God could not do what He said He would do. Namely, Israel rejected her Messiah, and so God cut off Israel (Acts 8) and turned to work with the Gentiles (Acts 9).

As such, Christ's return has, since then, always been imminent.

Until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, no prophecy regarding the end times can be interpreted as being fulfilled, and such efforts to try to match them to current events will only result in confusion.

https://kgov.com/end-times-and-jonathan-cahn

 

[fzappa13]

Jesus meant exactly what He said when He said:

When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt.10.23&version=NKJV

We've been in the last days since then.

The reason He hasn't returned is because, as described in Jeremiah 18, circumstances changed that prevented Christ from returning, that meant God could not do what He said He would do. Namely, Israel rejected her Messiah, and so God cut off Israel (Acts 8) and turned to work with the Gentiles (Acts 9).

I would suggest to you that man does not have the power to stay God's hand nor prevent Him sending His son at the time of His choosing. Indeed, scripture is replete with passages that indicate He knew precisely the reception His son would receive prior to His incarnation and what His reaction to it would be.

Please review Psalm 22.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I would suggest to you that man does not have the power to stay God's hand nor prevent Him sending His son at the time of His choosing.

You clearly have never read Jeremiah 18, then...

The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying: “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make. Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.” ’ ”

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 18:1-11 - New King James Version

The Potter and the Clay - The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying: “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. And the vessel that he made of clay...

www.biblegateway.com

Here we see God Himself stating that if He says He's going to raise up a nation, and that nation turns against Him, He will not do that which He said He would do, and we see God Himself stating that if He says He's going to destroy a nation, and that nation repents, He will not do that which He said He would do.

God sent Jonah to Nineveh, and had him preach that nineveh would be destroyed in 40 days. Nineveh as a whole repented, and God did not destroy them.

God promised Israel that he would establish them as a nation, moreso, He would establish His kingdom forever. Israel rejected her Messiah, her King, so He could not do that which He said He would do. He could not establish His Kingdom in Israel because she had rejected Him as her King.

I'm not saying God cannot accomplish His tasks, only that He cannot work clay that is marred into the desired form.

Indeed, scripture is replete with passages that indicate He knew precisely the reception His son would receive prior to His incarnation and what His reaction to it would be.

What does that have to do with it?

Remember, we're talking about the end times here, not the events surrounding Jesus' crucifixion.

Please review Psalm 22.

Nothing in Psalm 22 is about the promised Kingdom of Israel God wanted to establish.

 

[fzappa13]

Mat 24: 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

This verse plucked out of of Jesus' recounting of what he referred to as the time immediately preceding His return has a meaning that is not immediately apparent as I have addressed in another thread. At the risk of being redundant I will offer Strong's take on this word "Iniquity" once again.
ἀνομία anomía, an-om-ee'-ah; from G459; illegality, i.e. violation of law or (genitive case) wickedness:—iniquity, × transgress(-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

Those unfortunate souls that follow current events as I have can't escape seeing the lawlessness that is proliferating. This is not an accident. This is being paid for by very rich men that buy our prosecutors and direct them to allow the crimes they are ostensibly hired to prosecute. Again, by itself this couldn't be offered as final proof of the days in which we live but, it is yet another brick in the wall and the fact that this is a world wide phenomenon is worthy of consideration as well.

 

[Derf]

In each successive generation after the death of Christ there have been proponents of the idea that theirs' would be the generation to see His return. To this point all have been wrong (unless you're a Preterist in which case this thread probably isn't for you). As of late, more and more folks have begun to suggest that we are indeed heading into what Jesus referred to as "the last days." I would like to offer this thread as an opportunity to catalog what any given individual is seeing that makes them feel this may well be true and the scripture supporting their assertion. I'll throw a little something out there to get things started.



Dan 12: 1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Travel and knowledge have reached unprecedented levels during our lives. Indeed there are people still alive today that have seen us go from the horse and buggy that had served humanity so well for all these millennia to what we see today in an alarmingly short period of time. This change was, in part, driven by a parallel increase in knowledge. While, in and of itself, you likely couldn't point to this development as irrefutable proof that we are on the cusp of the day spoken of here by Daniel it is, I think, a brick in the wall toward building a foundation for that argument.

There's an interesting footnote in the Geneva Bible (translated earlier than, and in some sense inspiring the KJV) that explains that Michael is really Jesus Christ prior to His incarnation. If this is true, then when Stephen said he saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God, it could be seen, possibly, as a start of the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy.

 

[fzappa13]

There's an interesting footnote in the Geneva Bible (translated earlier than, and in some sense inspiring the KJV) that explains that Michael is really Jesus Christ prior to His incarnation. If this is true, then when Stephen said he saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God, it could be seen, possibly, as a start of the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy.

The subject of Jesus prior to His incarnation in the flesh is a REALLY big subject. Not sure I would want to jump to that conclusion over one footnote in one translation. In the mouth of two or three witnesses is a thing established.

 

[Gary K]

The subject of Jesus prior to His incarnation in the flesh is a REALLY big subject. Not sure I would want to jump to that conclusion over one footnote in one translation. In the mouth of two or three witnesses is a thing established.

There is actually quite a bit of Biblical evidence that Jesus is referred to as an angel.

Judges 7: 1 And an angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.

Judges 2: 3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.
4 And it came to pass, when the angel of the Lord spake these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept.

Judges 6: 11 ¶And there came an angel of the Lord, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abi–ezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites.*n4*n5
12 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him, and said unto him, The Lord is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.
13 And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the Lord be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the Lord bring us up from Egypt? but now the Lord hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites.
14 And the Lord looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?

Judges 13: 18 And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?*n5
19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the Lord: and the angel did wondrously; and Manoah and his wife looked on.
20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.
21 But the angel of the Lord did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

Zecheriah 1:6 And the angel of the Lord protested unto Joshua, saying,
7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

 

[fzappa13]

There is actually quite a bit of Biblical evidence that Jesus is referred to as an angel.

Judges 7: 1 And an angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.

Judges 2: 3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.
4 And it came to pass, when the angel of the Lord spake these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept.

Judges 6: 11 ¶And there came an angel of the Lord, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abi–ezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites.*n4*n5
12 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him, and said unto him, The Lord is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.
13 And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the Lord be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the Lord bring us up from Egypt? but now the Lord hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites.
14 And the Lord looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?

Judges 13: 18 And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?*n5
19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the Lord: and the angel did wondrously; and Manoah and his wife looked on.
20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.
21 But the angel of the Lord did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

Zecheriah 1:6 And the angel of the Lord protested unto Joshua, saying,
7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

Calling Jesus "an angel" is technically accurate in that this is one of many ways the term "Elohim" is translated but building doctrine from a translation really has the tail wagging the dog. As there is no direct equivalent to that term in either the Greek or the English, translators were left with the task of trying to differentiate who was being discussed when presented with the term. Context is the primary concern here and one's doctrinal beliefs are yet another. Remember the controversy when Jesus offered this?

31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

The line offered in verse 34 is from Psalms as I'm sure you know. The term here translated "gods" is "Elohim". The controversy concerning this term rages on today. I would suggest that if you scour the Old Testament for all occurrences of this term and let them speak as a group you'll come up with a much clearer idea of what the term means and, possibly, a better appreciation of what was being said here:

Rom 8:
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Follow the term "sons of God" across the O.T. and you find the term "Elohim." A subject worthy of its own study.

 

[fzappa13]

We used to have a poster here named "Elohim". He would have been all over this like a duck on a June bug.

 

[Derf]

Calling Jesus "an angel" is technically accurate in that this is one of many ways the term "Elohim" is translated

The word translated "angel" is not Elohim. It's

מַלְאָךְ​

Transliteration: mal'āk


I'm uncomfortable with the idea that Jesus was once a regular angel (non-diety), but not that He was once the great Prince of the children of Israel. Michael is the only one called "archangel" in the canonical scriptures, which could also refer to the "captain of the host" (leader of the angels).

 

[Gary K]

Calling Jesus "an angel" is technically accurate in that this is one of many ways the term "Elohim" is translated but building doctrine from a translation really has the tail wagging the dog. As there is no direct equivalent to that term in either the Greek or the English, translators were left with the task of trying to differentiate who was being discussed when presented with the term. Context is the primary concern here and one's doctrinal beliefs are yet another. Remember the controversy when Jesus offered this?

31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

The line offered in verse 34 is from Psalms as I'm sure you know. The term here translated "gods" is "Elohim". The controversy concerning this term rages on today. I would suggest that if you scour the Old Testament for all occurrences of this term and let them speak as a group you'll come up with a much clearer idea of what the term means and, possibly, a better appreciation of what was being said here:

Rom 8:
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Follow the term "sons of God" across the O.T. and you find the term "Elohim." A subject worthy of its own study.

The angel of the Lord accepted worship. Thus he could not have been "just an angel". Manoah said, we shall die because we have seen God. That is translated from elohim. The passage where Manoah "said to the Lord". Lord is translated from Adonai.

 

[Tambora]

Calling Jesus "an angel" is technically accurate in that this is one of many ways the term "Elohim" is translated but building doctrine from a translation really has the tail wagging the dog. As there is no direct equivalent to that term in either the Greek or the English, translators were left with the task of trying to differentiate who was being discussed when presented with the term. Context is the primary concern here and one's doctrinal beliefs are yet another. Remember the controversy when Jesus offered this?

31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

The line offered in verse 34 is from Psalms as I'm sure you know. The term here translated "gods" is "Elohim". The controversy concerning this term rages on today. I would suggest that if you scour the Old Testament for all occurrences of this term and let them speak as a group you'll come up with a much clearer idea of what the term means and, possibly, a better appreciation of what was being said here:

Rom 8:
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Follow the term "sons of God" across the O.T. and you find the term "Elohim." A subject worthy of its own study.

Agreed.
'Son/sons of God' = son/sons of Elohim.


The term "elohim" in scripture is used for beings of the spirit realm:

the God of Israel

Genesis 3:3 ESV​

(3) but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’”​

angels

Job 1:6 ESV​

(6) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.​

the gods and goddesses of other nations

1 Kings 11:33 ESV​

(33) because they have forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of Moab, and Milcom the god of the Ammonites, and they have not walked in my ways, doing what is right in my sight and keeping my statutes and my rules, as David his father did.​

celestial beings of God's heavenly council

Psalms 82:1 ESV​

(1) A Psalm of Asaph. God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:​

dead Samuel

1 Samuel 28:13 ESV​

(13) The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.”​

demons

Deuteronomy 32:17 ESV​

(17) They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded.​

 

[fzappa13]

The word translated "angel" is not Elohim. It's

מַלְאָךְ​

Transliteration: mal'āk


I'm uncomfortable with the idea that Jesus was once a regular angel (non-diety), but not that He was once the great Prince of the children of Israel. Michael is the only one called "archangel" in the canonical scriptures, which could also refer to the "captain of the host" (leader of the angels).

Point well taken. What we call "The angels" as a group are most often referred to as "the sons of God" which is translated from the word "Elohim." In the singular the term most often used is indeed "Malak" and it's primary meaning is messenger which is not so much an indicator of the manner of being that they are but is indicative of their function.

 

[fzappa13]

The angel of the Lord accepted worship. Thus he could not have been "just an angel". Manoah said, we shall die because we have seen God. That is translated from elohim. The passage where Manoah "said to the Lord". Lord is translated from Adonai.

Your post points out the necessity of both returning to the original language and collecting and comparing all instances of these words in order to properly understand what we are reading however well intended any given translation may be.

 

[fzappa13]

The word translated "angel" is not Elohim. It's

מַלְאָךְ​

Transliteration: mal'āk


I'm uncomfortable with the idea that Jesus was once a regular angel (non-diety), but not that He was once the great Prince of the children of Israel. Michael is the only one called "archangel" in the canonical scriptures, which could also refer to the "captain of the host" (leader of the angels).

Concerning the difference between Jesus and angels:

Heb 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

 

[fzappa13]

Agreed.
'Son/sons of God' = son/sons of Elohim.


The term "elohim" in scripture is used for beings of the spirit realm:

the God of Israel

Genesis 3:3 ESV​

(3) but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’”​

angels

Job 1:6 ESV​

(6) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.​

the gods and goddesses of other nations

1 Kings 11:33 ESV​

(33) because they have forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of Moab, and Milcom the god of the Ammonites, and they have not walked in my ways, doing what is right in my sight and keeping my statutes and my rules, as David his father did.​

celestial beings of God's heavenly council

Psalms 82:1 ESV​

(1) A Psalm of Asaph. God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:​

dead Samuel

1 Samuel 28:13 ESV​

(13) The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.”​

demons

Deuteronomy 32:17 ESV​

(17) They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded.​

Wonderful, succinct post. I have come to see the "Elohim" as a family/species whose primary residence is the heavenly realm but which has access to ours as well. They also have a hierarchy:

1 Cor 15:
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Heb 2:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

1 Cor 6:
2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Jesus came to offer us membership into this family. It is incumbent upon us to accept His offer. He was the only "Elohim" to be born of a woman. We will be the only others born of a woman to become "Elohim."

 

[fzappa13]

You just never know where any given thread is going to go and perhaps that's not such a bad thing.

 

[Derf]

Concerning the difference between Jesus and angels:

Heb 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Not to belabor the point, nor to say that I disagree with what you wrote, but the predix "arch" means, in a sense, "better than". This from a Google search:
As a prefix, arch- appears in a number of titles referring to positions of superiority, such as archduke and archbishop; it can also mean "chief" (as in archnemesis) or "extreme" (archconservative). It comes from the Greek verb archein, meaning "to begin or to rule."

[FONT=Roboto, Helvetica Neue, Arial, sans-serif]As one who is a beginner of angels, it could apply to the 2nd person of the trinity. Or as a ruler over angels.[/FONT]

 

[fzappa13]

Not to belabor the point, nor to say that I disagree with what you wrote, but the predix "arch" means, in a sense, "better than". This from a Google search:
As a prefix, arch- appears in a number of titles referring to positions of superiority, such as archduke and archbishop; it can also mean "chief" (as in archnemesis) or "extreme" (archconservative). It comes from the Greek verb archein, meaning "to begin or to rule."

[FONT=Roboto, Helvetica Neue, Arial, sans-serif]As one who is a beginner of angels, it could apply to the 2nd person of the trinity. Or as a ruler over angels.[/FONT]

Although I am a firm believer that friends don't let friends google (cough, cough, ahem, DuckDuckGo) I'm on board with what you are saying here. It would appear to be another layer or facet of the hierarchy of the Elohim.