Romans 10 proves that Calvinism is false and un-scriptural.

[dodge]

Rom 10:1
¶
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.


Rom 10:2
For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.


Rom 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.


Rom 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5
For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.


Rom 10:6
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above


Rom 10:7
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)


Rom 10:8
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;


10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 10:11
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Rom 10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.


Rom 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Rom 10:14
¶
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?



Rom 10:15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


Rom 10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Rom 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rom 10:18
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


Rom 10:19
But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.


Rom 10:20
But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.


10:21
But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

 

[Lon]

1) Good news, you don't have to be a Calvinist then? Good for you?

2) Calvinists don't have Romans 10 in their bibles? Was it enough simply to post the verses without a thing said? If that's all it took there wouldn't have been a debate over it for 200 years in the Catholic church or 500 years of it existing up to today?


I've no idea what goes through the minds of anti-Calvinists, but it seems a lofty goal, and frankly, a bit beyond the prowess of about every member of TOL. It is just and plainly delusional. Robert Pate sure tries hard but he cannot see how futile. You need a "MDiv and ThD/PhD" after your name to have any hope of hitting that coffin nail, let alone hitting it again to drive it in.

In the end, it is really ONLY about what you want. It a) won't stop someone from remaining Calvinist nor b) be seen as anything but your sentiments regarding that theological system. :cheers:

 

[dodge]

Lon;4684041]1) Good news, you don't have to be a Calvinist then? Good for you?

lol, thanks for the pardon from the Calvinists error and deceit.

2) Calvinists don't have Romans 10 in their bibles? Was it enough simply to post the verses without a thing said? If that's all it took there wouldn't have been a debate over it for 200 years in the Catholic church or 500 years of it existing up to today?

One can hope and pray God will open their ( Calvinists ) eyes , ears, and hearts to HIS truth correct ?

I've no idea what goes through the minds of anti-Calvinists, but it seems a lofty goal, and frankly, a bit beyond the prowess of about every member of TOL. It is just and plainly delusional. Robert Pate sure tries hard but he cannot see how futile. You need a "MDiv and ThD/PhD" after your name to have any hope of hitting that coffin nail, let alone hitting it again to drive it in.

I believe in the end most want to do what God requires nothing less.

I do NOT place my faith in men with letters behind their names. The leadership of the Holy Spirit, scripture, being humble and contrite before God,and BELIEVING Him is more than enough !

In the end, it is really ONLY about what you want. It a) won't stop someone from remaining Calvinist nor b) be seen as anything but your sentiments regarding that theological system. :cheers:

Faith is the journey and truth is the goal.

I do not like labels NO ONE paid for the sins of mankind except Jesus and only Jesus.

Peace.

 

[Nang]

NO ONE paid for the sins of mankind except Jesus and only Jesus.

Calvinists do not say anyone else paid for and forgives sin, except Jesus Christ.

 

[dodge]

edit

 

[dodge]

edit

 

[dodge]

Calvinists do not say anyone else paid for and forgives sin, except Jesus Christ.

Hello Nang, I made that point because no one except Jesus paid the price in full, and as the Apostle taught when some claimed one or another Apostle they were instructed to be named by no other name than Jesus. Hence christian as in a follower of Christ was eventually begun.

Act 11:26
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Co 3:5
¶
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Co 3:6
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
1Co 3:8
Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Co 3:9
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

 

[Robert Pate]

Calvinist are suffering from a bad case of eliteism. That can't believe that "God so loves the world". They want to believe that God only loves "Some Certain Person" Canons of Dort. And they just happen to be one of them.

 

[Samie]

1) Good news, you don't have to be a Calvinist then? Good for you?

2) Calvinists don't have Romans 10 in their bibles? Was it enough simply to post the verses without a thing said? If that's all it took there wouldn't have been a debate over it for 200 years in the Catholic church or 500 years of it existing up to today?

I've no idea what goes through the minds of anti-Calvinists, but it seems a lofty goal, and frankly, a bit beyond the prowess of about every member of TOL. It is just and plainly delusional. Robert Pate sure tries hard but he cannot see how futile. You need a "MDiv and ThD/PhD" after your name to have any hope of hitting that coffin nail, let alone hitting it again to drive it in.

In the end, it is really ONLY about what you want. It a) won't stop someone from remaining Calvinist nor b) be seen as anything but your sentiments regarding that theological system. :cheers:

Delusional? Hmm...

I am just wondering why, 20 days since asked, not a single Calvinist posted any rebuttal. Again:

If Calvinism teaches the truth, why could it not stand the test of Scriptures? Example:

Calvinism teaches NONE of the elect can perish.

Christ teaches there are from the elect who will perish:

Matthew 8:11-12 NIV 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Maybe it is NOT yet the proper time to say that Calvinists' silence on the above issue proves that rebutting it is, borrowing your phrase, "a bit beyond the prowess of about every [Calvinist] member of TOL".

 

[Lon]

Delusional? Hmm...

Are you understanding the delusion? Simply "that 'I' the laymen, could hope to defeat [blank] theology." Shoot, I have a couple of degrees and cannot do it. God can. Prayer works. -Lon

I am just wondering why, 20 days since asked, not a single Calvinist posted any rebuttal. Again:Maybe it is NOT yet the proper time to say that Calvinists' silence on the above issue proves that rebutting it is, borrowing your phrase, "a bit beyond the prowess of about every [Calvinist] member of TOL".

It isn't just the Calvinist that disagrees with your interpretation of Matthew 9:11-12. In fact, there are very few that 'can' agree with your interpretation. I'll go over to that page and show you why....

 

[Lon]

lol, thanks for the pardon from the Calvinists error and deceit.
One can hope and pray God will open their ( Calvinists ) eyes , ears, and hearts to HIS truth correct ?

I was Amyraldian before I entered Calvinism (that's where scripture led). I was Arminian of sorts before that, though the loss of salvation/gain of it again had me further away even young. "If" I can lose my salvation, perhaps it is already lost. At least, that is what I thought when it depended on me to keep my salvation. I tried hard, prayed, asked for forgiveness, but I was stuck not being able to measure up, and to others, they'd have thought I was doing really well.

I believe in the end most want to do what God requires nothing less.

I believe only those with a new-nature want to do what that nature wants.

I do NOT place my faith in men with letters behind their names. The leadership of the Holy Spirit, scripture, being humble and contrite before God,and BELIEVING Him is more than enough !

"Study to shew thyself an approved workman"???
No, I am NOWHERE near the same page. I think PhD's do, in fact, tell how tenacious a man or woman was and is, in taking scripture to heart. Bereans are bereans. All others, simply, are not. The Bereans were more noble than contenders, in point of fact.
Being myself studied, I have no room in my theology but to disagree with you. In fact, I think it one of the worst things said in unjust excuse I've ever seen among believers. I disdain it.

Faith is the journey and truth is the goal.

:nono: Not if you don't study, it ain't.

I do not like labels NO ONE paid for the sins of mankind except Jesus and only Jesus.

I do. Like being a "Berean."

Peace.

Or "dodge?" I think peace is a wonderful thing in perspective, but some things are worth fighting for. I pray, however, it does indeed lead to peace. In our Lord Jesus Christ. -Lon

 

[6days]

lol, thanks for the pardon from the Calvinists error and deceit.

Do you think its helpful to say believers are deceitful, when there is a difference of opinions / theology?
We can trust Christ as our Savior, and sincerely follow Him; even if we don't totally understand exactly how and why Christ saved a wretch like myself.

 

[beloved57]

Calvinist are suffering from a bad case of eliteism. That can't believe that "God so loves the world". They want to believe that God only loves "Some Certain Person" Canons of Dort. And they just happen to be one of them.

Gods Love is discriminate, its not towards all men without exception, thats why we have scriptures like Rom 9:13

¹³ As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 

[Sonnet]

Gods Love is discriminate, its not towards all men without exception, thats why we have scriptures like Rom 9:13

¹³ As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

This traduces the very God you claim to believe in. Astonishing.
Is this also part of your Gospel? Believe in Jesus who loves some men and hates others. Will that speak to men's hearts and bring them to Christ?

Outrageous.

Your interpretation of Romans 9 is off the scale and anti-Christian. Paul is merely asserting that God chose those through whom the promise would come.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Do you think its helpful to say believers are deceitful, when there is a difference of opinions / theology?
We can trust Christ as our Savior, and sincerely follow Him; even if we don't totally understand exactly how and why Christ saved a wretch like myself.

Romans 2:16 "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." The Apostle Paul was not a Calvinist. Think about that.


It is helpful for "True Believers" to "OUT" false doctrine wherever they find it.

 

[Sonnet]

Gods Love is discriminate, its not towards all men without exception, thats why we have scriptures like Rom 9:13

¹³ As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

A desecration of the Gospel.

 

[dodge]

I was Amyraldian before I entered Calvinism (that's where scripture led). I was Arminian of sorts before that, though the loss of salvation/gain of it again had me further away even young. "If" I can lose my salvation, perhaps it is already lost. At least, that is what I thought when it depended on me to keep my salvation. I tried hard, prayed, asked for forgiveness, but I was stuck not being able to measure up, and to others, they'd have thought I was doing really well.

A lot of scripture has to be taken out of context to end up in the Calvinist camp.

I believe only those with a new-nature want to do what that nature wants.

Faith comes by hearing the word of God !

The new nature comes with the new birth.

"Study to shew thyself an approved workman"???
No, I am NOWHERE near the same page. I think PhD's do, in fact, tell how tenacious a man or woman was and is, in taking scripture to heart. Bereans are bereans. All others, simply, are not. The Bereans were more noble than contenders, in point of fact.

Satan studied and knows scripture as did the Pharisees and Sadducees.

I do NOT place my faith in men with letters behind their names. The leadership of the Holy Spirit, scripture, being humble and contrite before God,and BELIEVING Him is more than enough !

I have read absolute heresy from men with letters behind their names !

Studying God's word AND believing it produces faith and good fruit. Many study God's word and because they take the word out of context it produces rotten fruit.

Being myself studied, I have no room in my theology but to disagree with you. In fact, I think it one of the worst things said in unjust excuse I've ever seen among believers. I disdain it.

It appears that studying that leads to corrupting the gospel and grace of God as Calvinists have done has not really produced good fruit.

I would like you to explain to a 5 year old child that if they were not elected was created by a loving God to condemn them to eternal hell for His good pleasure.

Not if you don't study, it ain't.

I have been studying scripture a long time;however, just because a man has letters behind his name does not mean he loves or follows God in truth !

I do. Like being a "Berean."

Studying God's word is NOT what I disagreed with. What I did disagree with was placing your faith in men with letters behind their names.

I think peace is a wonderful thing in perspective, but some things are worth fighting for. I pray, however, it does indeed lead to peace. In our Lord Jesus Christ. -
Lon

Amen

 

[dodge]

Do you think its helpful to say believers are deceitful, when there is a difference of opinions / theology?
We can trust Christ as our Savior, and sincerely follow Him; even if we don't totally understand exactly how and why Christ saved a wretch like myself.

Hello 6 days. IS it not deceit to change the gospel of God ?

Jesus said whosoever believes in Him would not perish but have eternal life.

The jailer when asked what must he d to be saved was told to confess the Lord Jesus
with his mouth and believe in his heart that God raised Him from the dead.

Now comes along folks that change that ! IS that not deceit ?

 

[6days]

Do you think its helpful to say believers are deceitful, when there is a difference of opinions / theology?
We can trust Christ as our Savior, and sincerely follow Him; even if we don't totally understand exactly how and why Christ saved a wretch like myself.

Hello 6 days. IS it not deceit to change the gospel of God ?

Yes.

Jesus said whosoever believes in Him would not perish but have eternal life.

The jailer when asked what must he d to be saved was told to confess the Lord Jesus
with his mouth and believe in his heart that God raised Him from the dead.

Correct.

Now comes along folks that change that ! IS that not deceit ?

But...you have not shown that anyone is changing God's Word.

I will try make my point with a story.

TWIN A: She has lived a life far from God. She picks up a Gideons Bible, and becomes interested in Jesus. A Christian friend later leads A to Christ. Her life is transformed...she becomes a new creature. She is excited about Jesus and tells her friends about the decision she has made.

TWIN B: She has lived a life far from God. She picks up a Gideons Bible, and becomes interested in Jesus. A Christian friend later leads A to Christ. Her life is transformed...she becomes a new creature. She is excited about Jesus and tells her friends how Jesus saved her.

I think in real life we would accept both these women as sisters in Christ, although they may have slightly theology on exactly how they bacame children of God.

BTW....the twins have an older brother. His theology again is slightly different. He says... "I don't know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!" Jn. 9:25

 

[Lon]

A lot of scripture has to be taken out of context to end up in the Calvinist camp.
Faith comes by hearing the word of God !
The new nature comes with the new birth.

We think differently but I actually agree on these.

Satan studied and knows scripture as did the Pharisees and Sadducees.

I do NOT place my faith in men with letters behind their names. The leadership of the Holy Spirit, scripture, being humble and contrite before God,and BELIEVING Him is more than enough !

I have read absolute heresy from men with letters behind their names !

Studying God's word AND believing it produces faith and good fruit. Many study God's word and because they take the word out of context it produces rotten fruit.

Then you've pursued the same? I yet disagree with you and think you disagree with yourself here, whether you know it or not. Your response can ONLY lead to my disagreement.

It appears that studying that leads to corrupting the gospel and grace of God as Calvinists have done has not really produced good fruit.

I would like you to explain to a 5 year old child that if they were not elected was created by a loving God to condemn them to eternal hell for His good pleasure.

:nono: You don't get Calvinism or understand us at all if you think this is accurate and applicable. Not even a little bit. :noway:

Haters gonna hate. At least understand me? Nope, I don't envision that from you. We are now running on my patience. Please pray God gives me enough. I'm discouraged that a believer and lover of Christ and men would traverse this direction. I'm challenging you to live up to your Christianity.

have been studying scripture a long time;however, just because a man has letters behind his name does not mean he loves or follows God in truth !
Studying God's word is NOT what I disagreed with. What I did disagree with was placing your faith in men with letters behind their names.

I still disagree. I went to seminary, specifically, because I knew what that would do for me. It forces and immersion like nothing a layman will likely ever experience. I wanted to know God's word. I knew what I needed to do. I don't disdain a lack of that, few of us ever do that, but I am bothered by one who disdains it as if it does not express a dedication. I do agree some with degrees are wrong and that we can all see that. I think however, it takes one with that weight to debate them most often. Exceptions? Yes, I agree with that too. The only thing I'm against is a disdain for that discipline.

Amen

It helps with patience. I'm not sure I can change one's view once they get it in their heads that we Calvinists are false. In my church, we are side-by-side. What you do in your church, I have no control over and can't really do anything when it gets this ingrained. I've a few on ignore simply because I recognize the limitation and when one is not at all wanting to really talk about it any more. There comes a point where 'heretic' is simply best ignored and I can simply fellowship and talk with those who disagree. We make our own walls and fences. I'm not a guy that likes to fight across the fence and would prefer to move away.