REPORT: The Deity of Christ

webby

Axe dropper
Administrator
The Deity of Christ by Bob Hill

The Bible clearly shows us repeatedly that there is only one God. 1 Corinthians 8:6 says, “yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.” This verse is showing God as He is worshipped and as He redeems. But it also seems to show that there is only one God and another person, Jesus Christ.

Who, then, is Jesus Christ, the Word, the Son? Is He God? There are a number of reasons why we must say, yes, He is God. The first is found in John 1:1. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” However, the New World Translation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses says, “and the Word was a god.” Charles T. Russell, their founder wrote “the Logos was a God.” He continued, “This is the literal translation of the Greek, as can be readily confirmed by anyone, whether a Greek scholar or not. The Greek article ho precedes the first word ‘God,’ in this verse, and does not precede the second word ‘God.’ . . . The entire verse therefore reads – ‘In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with [ho theos] the God, and the Word was [theos] a God. The same was in the beginning with [ho theos] the God.’”1

Now, is this an accurate statement? Does the absence of the article make it a god rather than God2 as he and they say? The answer is no! In 2 Corinthians 4:4, “whose minds the god o qeo" [ho theos] of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them,” it says the god o qeo" [ho theos], but that god is not almighty God, it is satan.

Let’s look at the rest of John 1 and see how qeo" [theos], God, is handled.3 Verse 2, “He was in a beginning with the God (ton qeon ton theon).” Verse 13, “not of a will of a man but of a god (qeou, theou), they were born.” Verse 18, No one has seen a god (qeon theon), ever.”

As you can see, John does not use the definite article in its different forms, o, tou, tw, or ton every time he speaks about almighty God. That great Greek scholar, A.T. Robertson wrote this about John 1:1: “As already explained, the article is not essential to speech. It is, however, invaluable as a means of gaining precision, e.g. qeo" hn o logo" [the word was God]. As a rule the predicate is without the article, even when the subject uses it. Cf. Mk. 9:50; Lu. 7:8. This is in strict accord with the ancient idiom. . . . the rule holds wherever the subject has the article and the predicate does not. . . . The word with the article is then the subject, whatever the order may be. So in Jo. 1:1, qeo" hn o logo" the subject is perfectly clear.”4 In the same idiom, we do not say the Word became a flesh (o logo" sarx egeneto) in John 1:14.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses say, “If the Word is God, and the Spirit is God, and since we cannot scientifically calculate that 1 God (the Father) + 1 God (the Son) + 1 God (the Holy Ghost) = 1 God; then we must say 1/3 God + 1/3 God + 1/3 God = 3/3 God or 1 God.” But this is not even close to what we say. Just as a man can manifest himself as a father to his children, a husband to his wife, and a son to his parents in a consistent way, God manifests Himself even more consistently and supernaturally as God the Father, Son, and Spirit. In fact, He says in Matthew 28:19, “baptizing them in the name [singular] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

Furthermore, if John 1:1 said that the Word was a god rather than God, there would be two Gods even if one were inferior to the other. The Bible clearly states that this is not the case. Isaiah 44 & 45 repeatedly say there is only one God! For example Isaiah 44:24 says, “Thus says the LORD [Jehovah], your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb: ‘I am the LORD, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.’” If the Word were not God, then John 1:1-3 and Colossians 1:16 would contradict this statement because they show that “by Him all things were created . . . through Him and for Him.” Because He is God, these Scriptures do not contradict Isaiah.

When He, the Son, came and talked to Abraham in Genesis 18:1, He appeared to Abraham as a man. The two angels went down to Sodom (18:16-19:1). What did Jehovah the Son do? The LORD [Jehovah] went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham” (18:33). “Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens” (19:24). Here, we have two manifestations of Jehovah at the same time. The first, Jehovah the Son, refers to the one who was seen by Abraham. He rained down brimstone and fire from Jehovah, the Father, out of heaven. The first Jehovah was actually seen by men! Jehovah the Son was seen.

But do we have the right to say this? Let’s look at this more carefully. In Philippians 2:6-8, it gives us information about the Son. “Who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation,5 taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.” Notice, He was in the form of God. He was God. The form belonged to God. He then left that form and took another form. Yet, He was still God according to John 20:28, “And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” (o kurio" mou kai o qeo" mou) It is interesting that both Lord and God have the article here. Also, why didn’t Christ correct Thomas if he was wrong in calling Him God?

Considering the word “form” as found here, and in Genesis 1:26, He made man in the likeness of that form which belonged to God. He made “man in Our [plural] image, according to Our [plural] likeness.” This was the likeness or image that God (the Son) first created according to Colossians 1:15, “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” This image was also called, “the beginning of the creation of God” (Rev 3:14). He, God (as the Son), then indwelled this image that belonged to Him and created everything else (Col 1:16). Then, He made man in its likeness. When God was in this image, apparently man could see Him without fear of being destroyed. When it says that no one has ever seen God, we see from Scripture (John 6:46) that it means the Father can’t be seen. The Son shows and explains the Father (John 14:9; 1:18). All they could see of the invisible God (the Father) was shown in Jesus Christ the Son.

We find that the Word who is God, was not only seen by Abraham and the apostles, but He was also seen by Moses. In Exodus 24:9-11, we see that they saw God and lived to tell about it. Exodus 33:20 says, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” Therefore, the God whom they saw in Exodus 24 must have been God the Son. No one has seen the Father except God the Son, “He who is from God; He has seen the Father” (John 6:46).

Christ said, “Abraham rejoiced to see My day” (John 8:56). The Jews said He wasn’t even “fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham” (8:57)? Christ answered in 8:58, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Then, they wanted to stone Him. Why? Because He was referring to Himself as God. The words “I AM” were the same words which the Septuagint6 used to translate the first “I AM” from the Hebrew of Exodus 3:14. God continued in verse 15, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’” Christ said it more pointedly than the translation shows. Literally John 8:58 is “Before Abraham came into existence (genesqai), I Am.” The Jews knew He said He was God.

Later, John quoted Christ: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” This is used of God the Father as well as God the Son. Notice the following:
Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw Him [Christ], I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not beafraid; I am the First and the Last.”

Revelation 2:8 And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, “These things says the First and the Last [Christ], who was dead, and came to life.”

Isaiah 44:6-8,24 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God. 8 Do not fear, nor be afraid; Have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.” 24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.” Who spread the heavens? Christ (John 1:3; Col 1:16,17)! Who is the Savior? Christ (Isa 45:5,6,18,21,22)!

When we look at another aspect of God, His knowledge, we know that He knows things infinitely. God alone knows everything. When the Son says, “As the Father knows Me,” how does the Father know the Son? In an infinite, complete way. Then He says, “even so I know the Father” (John 10:15). Christ knows the Father in the same way, infinitely, because He is God. The New World Translation mistranslates this passage. In fact, it doesn’t even make any sense. They translate it this way: 14 “I am the fine shepherd, and I know my sheep and my sheep know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep.” From Greek syntax we can see that this should be two sentences. Verse 15 is a new sentence.

There is only one God. But He manifests Himself in three ways – Father, Son, and Spirit. To show how true this is, let’s look at John 14. Christ is speaking. In verse 7 He says, “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.” How can man see God and still live? We say that it was only as He manifested Himself as the Son (John 1:18; Heb 1:2-8). Then He said something almost incomprehensible. He said, verse 10, “Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.” He not only has the Father in Him, but He is in the Father! As we look further in this chapter, we see either a great confusion on John’s part or a blurring of the persons of the Godhead in the unity of God. Since this is inspired by the Holy Spirit, I don't think John is confused. Notice verses 17-26: “the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.” According to this, the Holy Spirit will come to them. 18 “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.” But, according to this, the Son will come. 23 “Jesus answered and said to him, ‘If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him,’ According to this verse, the Father is coming. ‘and We will come to him and make Our home with him.’ At least two of the trinity will come. 26 ‘But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.’”

Who dwelled with them (17)? Christ, but He says the Spirit. Who will come? The Spirit, but Christ says He will come (18). Now wait a minute! Who is coming? The Father, and the Son (23), and the Spirit (26). God is coming (came)! The trinity came! Wow!! Are you as confused as I am? Who really was to come according to John 14? All we can say is God was coming in every way – Father, Son, and Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes when both the Father and the Son come. This is why Christ said in John 10:30, “I and My Father are one.” So from this, we must say again, the Son is God. That’s why the Father says in Hebrews 1:8, “But to the Son He says: ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.”

When God manifests Himself as Father, Son, and Spirit, all three manifestations have different functions. The Father is highest and is the one who is mainly worshipped. John 14:28 reports this: “You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.” But the Son is worshipped also, for the Father tells all the angels to worship Him. Hebrews 1:6, “But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: ‘Let all the angels of God worship Him.’” Every knee shall bow to Him. Philippians 2:9-10, “Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth.” This was prophesied in Isaiah 45:23: “I have sworn by Myself. The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath.” Here we see again that Jehovah is equated to Christ.

The Son is always subject to the Father in function (John 14:28; 1 Co 15:28), but as deity He is equally God. In His humanity, He is human (1 Ti 2:5) so He can redeem man (Heb 2:14-18). Remember who the only Savior was back in Isaiah. It was Jehovah. Therefore, we can see again, Christ, the Savior, is Jehovah.

Further, we find that God the Father raised Christ from the dead.7 But we find Christ saying that He would raise Himself,8 “I will raise it up . . . But He was speaking of the temple of His body” (John 2:19,21). But it also says He was made alive by the Spirit. Therefore, we see the trinity in action in His resurrection.

The Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3 records that “Peter said, ‘Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit?” Then the 4th verse said, “Acts 5:4 “Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” If he lied to the Holy Spirit, and this is described as lying to God, then, the Holy Spirit is God.

Therefore, we must admit that God is beyond our finite comprehension, but shows us all that can be known about Him in His word and Jesus Christ. God became a man not only to redeem us but to show us who God is. We can look at Christ and see God’s attributes of love, passion, mercy, and readiness to change when man repents.
 
Can you answer these questions or statements?
1. Give a definition of the word trinity.
2. Since the Greek word qeo" [theos - God] in the clause, “The Word was God,” doesn’t have the definite article, is the correct translation God, a god, or the God?
3. What is all this stuff about subject and predicate?
4. Since Isaiah 44 and 45 say that God is by Himself, doesn’t it follow that Christ would just be a tool God used to make the world?
5. Where do we see two manifestations of God in the Old Testament?
6. How could God be seen in Exodus 24 when the Bible says elsewhere that no one has ever seen God?
7. Wouldn’t you agree that a created being could not be God?
8. Why did the Jews try to kill Jesus?
9. If the Father knows the Son infinitely and the Son knows the Father the same way, what does that mean?
10. What does John 14 tell you about God?
11. Is the Son inferior to the Father in any way?
12. Why did the Son become a man?
13. Show why you believe the Holy Spirit is God.

This article was reproduced with the permission of Bob Hill www.biblicalanswers.com :up:
 

FOOTNOTES:
1 Russell, Studies in the Scriptures, Series V, p. 86, originally printed, 1899.

2 There are no capitals or lower case letters in the earliest Greek manuscripts to help us. Further, if Greek is translated extremely literally, it is not very readable in English. Keep this information in mind when I translate these sentences later.

3 I will translate each passage literally. If it has the article in any of its forms with any noun, I will translate it the. If it does not have the article, I will translate it a. The articles, in the masculine singular forms are, o, tou, tw, or ton. So for o [ho], I will translate it the God. If it does not have the o [ho], I will translate it a god.

4 Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, p. 767.

5 ekenwse, literally, He emptied Himself. He emptied Himself of His non-moral attributes of deity such as omniscience, omnipotenceand omnipresence. We also see that He left the form of God and took upon Himself the form and attributes of a servant, and came in the likeness of man. But He still retained His moral attributes such as love, compassion, mercy, and repentance.

6 The Septuagint, represented by LXX, was the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures used at the time of Christ.

7 Acts 2:24,32; 3:15,26; Rom 4:24; 6:4; 8:11; Col 2;12

8 John 10:17,18
 
Last edited:

Aimiel

Well-known member
My Answers

My Answers

Can you answer these questions or statements?
1. Give a definition of the word trinity.
1. OK, "Three in One, and One in Three; The One in the middle, He died for me."
2. Since the Greek word qeo" [theos - God] in the clause, “The Word was God,” doesn’t have the definite article, is the correct translation God, a god, or the God?
3. What is all this stuff about subject and predicate?
2. Hunh???
3. Hunh???
4. Since Isaiah 44 and 45 say that God is by Himself, doesn’t it follow that Christ would just be a tool God used to make the world?
Not when it also says that He made all things. He is the Eternal Son, He and the Father are One and the Same.
5. Where do we see two manifestations of God in the Old Testament?
Nowhere I have ever seen.
6. How could God be seen in Exodus 24 when the Bible says elsewhere that no one has ever seen God?
A more detailed explanation to your 'supposed contradictory' scripture is contained in the very same chapter, where the Glory of G_d is described. I believe that if anyone were to see the L_rd, in all His Glory, they would never wish to draw another breath in this present darkness, which is separated from His visible Presence. Moses was placed in the cleft of a rock, and the L_rd placed His Hand over Moses' eyes untill after He had passed by; so all that Moses got to see was the after-effects of G_d's very Presence upon this realm (physical); and he had to wear a veil for 40 days, since his face was so bright that no one could even stand to be around himm, without it being covered. It was not physically bright, the residue and effect of having seen the Glory of G_d was causing conviction and they just didn't like feeling dirty and not being able to do anything about it; so they had Moses cover his face.
7. Wouldn’t you agree that a created being could not be God?
Yes.
8. Why did the Jews try to kill Jesus?He claimed to be the Son of G_d, and He also claimed to have the power and authority to forgive sin. He also backed up what He said with works greater than this world has seen, before or since.
9. If the Father knows the Son infinitely and the Son knows the Father the same way, what does that mean?
They are good friends, and enjoy an open relationship. Did you mean to infer that you came to the conclusion that they have an intimate relationship because of some particular scripture, passage, chapter, book or combination of study which you have encountered?
10. What does John 14 tell you about God?
A lot. Mostly it reminds me of how I came to the conclusion that the church I attended (Baptist, when I was a very young teenager) was nearly dead; and I read in here things about G_d that I began to believe, way back then, before I ever heard of any such thing as a spirit-filled person or met or knew anyone who walked by faith, walked in love, or had the definite Mark of G_d upon their heart.
11. Is the Son inferior to the Father in any way?I believe that there are things that G_d knows and things that G_d will do that are His authority and His place to do, that the Son is not going to have a part in. The time of the rapture is one thing that Jesus said that He did not even know, only the Father knows. I don't believe that makes either inferior or superior, I believe that they are just different facets of the same Being: G_d Almighty.
12. Why did the Son become a man?Since the wages of sin is death, and man committed sin (angels did too, but G_d did not design salvation for Angels, they sinned when they knew what they were doing, but that is another story), all men must be put to death. All of us deserve death (the second death, the lake of fire), so we shall all be cast alive into this death. The ONLY salvation from this sentence is for us to be washed from our sins in Jesus' blood.
13. Show why you believe the Holy Spirit is God.His presence is eternal. There are five things mentioned as being eternal: the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, life, G_d's Purpose. I believe that the Eternal Purpose of G_d is something which all three (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) share. They are One. We are One, with Him. By that, I mean that we are His Flesh. One day, when we are caught up, in the Rapture, we will see this Body, which will look exactly like an image of Jesus, huge I am sure, being formed in the sky above the earth (He's the head) and as we come up from the earth and take our place in His Body, we will realize our potential and completeness, for the first time. I am not saying that we have always been (only G_d is Eternal) but I do believe that we have always existed, in His Mind. In the sense that He always interceds for us at the Right Hand of the Father, and that His Mind is always stayed on us and that He has always known us, in His Thoughts, our spirits; which I believe are just a tiny little portion of Him, because we came out from Him; we are 'sort of' eternal. I don't believe that we could live, eternally, unless we had our basis way back at the beginning of eternity, which really had no beginning, since it has always been.

Does this make any sense? I'm sorry, I don't think that there are very many things about eternity, omniscience or omnipotence that temporal, limited (size of intellect) or weak little human beings can comprehend. We have only a limited number of brain cells, yet we expect to be able to 'figure out' the all-knowing G_d. We are constrained to about 70 years, and think that we can imagine the Eternal G_d and Father of spirits. We believe that our almighty will might somehow come up with some argument that can stump G_d, make Him scratch His Head and say, why didn't I think of that. We will know, then (in Heaven) as we are known. We will see Him as He is. We will also remember every time He helped us, as well as others, and spend a large part of eternity just thanking Him. Another thing we will never come to an end of is searching out the depths of His Grace and Love, which are displayed in this life, and in eternity we will never be done just searching those out and discovering the things He did for us while we were in the physical realm. The spiritual realm is far above our comprehension, much less our understanding or reasoning power.
 

Paradõsis

New member
We can look at Christ and see God’s attributes of love, passion, mercy, and readiness to change when man repents.

Actually, God is passionless and changeless. If God is not immutable, he is not God.
 

o2bwise

New member
Simple Me...

Simple Me...

I don't know, call me "out there," but I see TWO here:

1. God

2. The Son of God


This entire creation attests to the idea that sons are not their fathers.

Divine? Yes. By virtue of being God? No! God is the Father. By virtue of being HIS SON.

The one thing we are called to confess.

Not complicated...

God Bless Y'All...

Tony (o2)
 

missedmarks

New member
Ok...I am NOT a greek scholar :)

Actually I have just started learning greek, and will tell anyone who will stop long enough to listen all about it (Im pretty fired up about it) Interestingly, at this point the first verse of John is the only thing I can read.

The literal, word for word translation I get is this.

In Begining was Word, and word was with God, and word was God.

of course the guy who wrote that didn't bother to punctuate it which makes some difference. But I think that pretty much says that the Jesus is God, and Jesus is Jesus.
 
B

biblicalanser4u

Guest
This is a post about the trinity at about the same day this came out.

Trinity-Apocalypse666revealed
Go to www.apocalypse666revealed.com Read the web site. Read the book. Subject: Trinity exposed as fraudulent. Church is Babylon the Great. 666 refers to the trinity. 38 bible passages exposed as altered to promote Trinity and Deity of Christ. Holy Spirit exposed as neuter in gender from the Greek.


__________________
SAGE

And now my response to such nonsense!

God is not a trinity (Oh YES He is)
Sage,

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


What Nonsense.

From the Jesus-is-Lord.com Website

It is amazing how much error there is in this world. Yesterday I got an e-mail from a Pentecostal who asked if I was a "Trinitarian". (And now this guy)

The question prompted me to write this on the tri-unity (aka the trinity) of God (I prefer the Bible word "Godhead"). This is something I've been meaning to do for a long while. A measure of fear came upon me as I sought to write this because herein I am seeking to describe the very nature of the Most High, magnificent, dread LORD God. Nevertheless, upon careful Bible study, I can write...

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20

I've heard people say that belief in the trinity means that we worship three gods. This simply reflects ignorance of the word of God. Any Christian willing to read their King James Bible with some clear eyeballs will see the truth. The LORD our God is one LORD (Deuteronomy 6:4) but He does exist in three Persons, a trinity.

If there were no other verse of the Bible testifying of the trinity, 1John 5:7 would be enough for any Bible-believer to see that God consists of three Persons--the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost (Of course, many (if not most) modern Bible versions do not have this complete verse. In this, they agree with the Jehovah's (false) Witness "Bible" called The New World Translation.) But this is not written because of Bible believers. It is written to counteract the error of those who say that there is no Godhead consisting of Father, Son and Holy Ghost. A few groups come to my mind as I think of "anti-trinitarians"--

Folks like the "Jesus Only" group say that only Jesus is God. They say that the Father and the Holy Ghost are only titles. Later in this thread, I will show how each person of the Godhead (a Bible word) actually speaks in the scriptures. A "title" cannot speak. The Jesus Only people will only baptize in the name of Jesus directly contradicting Jesus' command in Matthew 28:19, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

A Pentecostal sect (I'm not talking about all Pentecostals) represented at the Isaiah 58 website denies the trinity saying that God created Jesus and then Jesus created everything else (close to JW theology). This is the error of Arianism, i.e., saying that Jesus is a created being.

In one article on their website, The Influence of Trinitarian Doctrine on Translations of the Bible by John David Clark, Sr., there are number of blasphemies...the author says Jesus was sinless NOT because He was God but because He was obedient. Remember that Jesus was born as a baby--how many two year olds do you know that are willingly obedient 100% of the time? I have yet to meet a sinless person and I never will. Jesus was sinless from birth, no one else can accomplish that feat. He was not an ordinary man. He is God come in the flesh. The article also says that the Father can make anybody a god and that is what He did with Jesus (reminiscent of Mormon theology). The author further attempts to destroy the truth of the word of God by saying that Bible translators purposely mistranslated "the Greek" pronouns for the Persons of the Godhead.

People who spread false doctrine can make it sound correct because they wrest with the scriptures to their own destruction. We've got to know our Bibles intimately. The Bible is the only standard of truth. The Isaiah 58 folks wrongly divide a lot of things including what they call "speaking in tongues"

Then you have the Jehovah's (false) Witnesses. The JWs are infamous anti-trinitarians who deny that Jesus is God This cult follows the teachings of heretick Charles Taze Russell.

all of these groups are dead wrong.

More later, this just steams me

Good day
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
I agree, Jesus came to earth to die in our place, and He was, and is, G_d, in the flesh. The L_rd, or Owner of all there is. He created everything there is, and it is by His Word that all the molecules hold together. It is for His Glory that creation occured. To Him be praise forever more. There is not enough adulation, praise or worship to repay Him for what He is and what He has done, is doing or will do. If we deny any part of the trinity, we run the risk of being denied ourselves. I don't want to miss out on any understanding I might learn of G_d, or on anything He has in His hand to give to me. I believe that our lives are a test, not that we pass or fail, but I believe that we are given trials and tribulations, after the truth is planted in us, so that we can know that we know that we know the truth, and nothing can prevail against the truth. He is that Truth. He is the Only Way. He is the Only Life. Amen.
 

Evangelion

New member
Paradõsis -

Actually, God is passionless and changeless.

Changeless with regard to His characther and identity, yes, But passionless?

II Chronicles 30:8.
Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves unto the LORD, and enter into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified for ever: and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of his wrath may turn away from you.

Nope. No "passionless" God there.

If God is not immutable, he is not God.

True. But His immutability does not extend to His emotion. If this was the case, He would be unable to love at one time, and hate at the other time.

You have followed the path of the Early Church Fathers in accepting Greek philosophy as a means of evaluating and defining the attributes of the Father.

Speaking for myself, I'd rather accept the Scriptural version, thanks all the same.
 
Last edited:

Aimiel

Well-known member
Thank you, I am glad someone was able to defend G_d's passion. I know He is passionate about the Church, Israel, and even each and every single 'lost sheep.'
 

missedmarks

New member
Which view glorifies God more...

That Jesus was a man, chosen by God and empowered to be obedient to God's will. That for this obedience he was given an exalted place in the heavens, and through his sacrifice we are given a chance at eternal life.

That Jesus was God, who humbled himself to become human, lived a sinless existence (While facing the same temptations as the rest of us) and then gave his life so our sins can be forgiven.

I personally think you can believe whatever you want about the Trinity. All that the doctrine of the Trinity is, is an attempt to explain truths in the Bible that are a little beyond human comprehension.

Regardless of what you think of the Trinity, the most important thing to know is that Jesus is God.
 

Evangelion

New member
Missedmarks -

Which view glorifies God more...

That Jesus was a man, chosen by God and empowered to be obedient to God's will. That for this obedience he was given an exalted place in the heavens, and through his sacrifice we are given a chance at eternal life.

This one.

:)
 
P

Pilgrimagain

Guest
in regards to the efinate article question...

In the Hebrew culture there was no definate article needed because there was only one god. Te definateness of it is assumed. Therefore if theos is used it is indicating that one God.
 
B

biblicalanser4u

Guest
How can one God exist in three persons?

How can one God exist in three persons?

The Bible says that God made man in His image--but it also says that God is not a man. How then are we in His image? In many ways, one of which is we ourselves are tri-partite. Look at your own self. YOU exist in three distinct persons yet you remain one man.

You have a body/flesh which is the part of you that others can see.

You have a mind where you think your thoughts and make your plans.
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind...

You have a spirit where you feel and where your essence lies.
I Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Your body, mind and spirit are separate and distinct. My hand is a part of me, but it is not my intellect, my mind. My thoughts are a part of me, but they are not my spirit. I'll give an example. There have been times where I've seen my mind and my spirit in conflict. I'm hurt. My spirit is wounded. I'm crying and my mind says "Stop crying!" but I can't because my spirit has been wounded. Sometimes our mind and our flesh are in conflict. We know something is wrong but we are so weak and powerless that we let the flesh have its way. Paul talks about how his mind and flesh were in conflict--

Romans ...7:25 So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

You are undoubtedly tripartite (body, mind, spirit) yet you remain one entity. If you and I were in the same room and I looked at you, I would only see your flesh. I could not see what you were thinking or what you were feeling. I could not see who you really are.

We bear the image of God in that we are tripartite. One of the most direct scriptures testifying of the triunity of God is 1 John 5:7:

For there are three that bear record in heaven,the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and THESE THREE ARE ONE.
 
B

biblicalanser4u

Guest
How can one God exist in three persons?

How can one God exist in three persons?

The Bible says that God made man in His image--but it also says that God is not a man. How then are we in His image? In many ways, one of which is we ourselves are tri-partite. Look at your own self. YOU exist in three distinct persons yet you remain one man.

You have a body/flesh which is the part of you that others can see.

You have a mind where you think your thoughts and make your plans.
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind...

You have a spirit where you feel and where your essence lies.
I Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Your body, mind and spirit are separate and distinct. My hand is a part of me, but it is not my intellect, my mind. My thoughts are a part of me, but they are not my spirit. I'll give an example. There have been times where I've seen my mind and my spirit in conflict. I'm hurt. My spirit is wounded. I'm crying and my mind says "Stop crying!" but I can't because my spirit has been wounded. Sometimes our mind and our flesh are in conflict. We know something is wrong but we are so weak and powerless that we let the flesh have its way. Paul talks about how his mind and flesh were in conflict--

Romans ...7:25 So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

You are undoubtedly tripartite (body, mind, spirit) yet you remain one entity. If you and I were in the same room and I looked at you, I would only see your flesh. I could not see what you were thinking or what you were feeling. I could not see who you really are.

We bear the image of God in that we are tripartite. One of the most direct scriptures testifying of the triunity of God is 1 John 5:7:

For there are three that bear record in heaven,the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and THESE THREE ARE ONE.
 

theophilus

Well-known member
From my greek class -

From my greek class -

John 1:1 -

Nominative and Accusative Definite Articles (First and Second Declension Nouns)...

FYI - The nominative case is the case that the subject is in. When the subject takes an equative verb like "is" (i.e. a verb that equates the subject with something else), then another noun also appears in the nominative case - the predicate nominative. In the sentence, "John is a man," "John" is the subject and "man" is the predicate nominative. In English the subject and the predicate nominative are distinguished by word order (the subject comes first). Not so in the Greek. Since word order in Greek is quite flexible and is used for emphasis rather than for strict grammatical function, other means are used to determine subject from predicate nominative. For example, if one of the two nouns has the definite article, it is the subject.

As we have said, word order is especially employed for the sake of emphasis. Generally speaking, when a word is thrown to the front of the clause it is done so for emphasis. When a predicate nominative is thrown in front of the verb, by virtue of the word order it takes on emphasis. A good illustration of this is John 1:1. The English versions typically have, "and the Word was God," But in Greek, the word order has been reversed. It reads: "kai theos en ha logos" or, "and God was the Word." We know that "the Word" is the subject because it has the definite article, and we translate it accordingly: "and the Word was God." Two questions, both of theological import, should come to mind: (1) why was theos thrown forward? and (2) why does it lack the article? In brief, its emphatic position stresses its essence or quality: "What God was, the Word was" is how one translation brings out this force. Its lack of a definite article keeps us from identifying the person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of God (the Father.) That is to say, the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that the Father has; lack of the article tells us that Jesus Christ is not the Father. John's wording here is beautifully compact! It is, in fact, one of the most elegantly terse theological statements one could ever find. As Martin Luther said, "the lack of an article is against Sabellianism; the word order is against Arianism."

To state this another way, look at how different Greek constructions would be rendered: "kai ha logos en ha theos" - "and the Word was the God" (i.e., the Father; Sabellianism), "kai ha logos en theos" - "and the Word was a God" (i.e., Arianism), "kai theos en ha logos" - "and the Word was God" (Orthodoxy). Jesus Christ is God and has all the attributes the Father has. But He is not the first person of the Trinity. All this is concisely affirmed in "kai theos en ha logos." -David Wallace
 

theophilus

Well-known member
1 John 5:7 and an attempt to understand the Trinity

1 John 5:7 and an attempt to understand the Trinity

Someone asked if God were three persons, why didn't we call Him "they." The following was my answer:

God has one essence and three persons; He has one "What" and three "Whos." The three Whos (persons) each share the same What (essence). So God is a unity of essence with a plurality of persons. Each person is different, yet they share a common nature.

God is one in His substance. The unity is in His essence (what God is), and the plurality is in God's persons (how He relates within Himself).

This is why we call God "He."

"The reason why we cannot understand the "Trinity" is that there is nothing to understand. It is a philosophy of man, born out of gnostism and Plato-ism, not taught by the disciples, nor by Jesus, nor by the Bible. Easy to understand: God is one person, and there is none like him, none beside him. Read Isaiah 43-46."

God is one, and that is why the Bible uses singular personal pronouns like "he, I, his, mine, my, " etc. Not hard to figure out, not a mystery, not something strange and allusive. Plain and simple.

The "holy spirit of God" is just that ... God's spirit, not another "personage". You have a spirit... and is that spirit a seperate person from yoour body, your soul, your heart, your mind?
Example: In the book of Hebrews, when the "holy spirit" said "they shall never enter my rest..." (chpt 3-4).... All you need to do is look up the context in Numbers and Deut, and you will find that it was YHWH ( singular proper noun: "He IS" ) spoke those words. Therefore, one can conclude that "YHWH" and "holy spirit of God" refers to the one and same "person".

No mystery, no confusion. Simple. God is one. No need to call him "they".

Wrong answer, but thanks for playing. The logic of the doctrine of the Trinity is simple. Two biblical truths are evident in scripture, the logical conclusion of which is the Trinity: 1. There is one God; 2. There are three distinct persons who are God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.

The Trinity is one of the greates mysteries of the Christian faith. Unlike an antimony (read Kant) or paradox, which is a logical contradiction, the Trinity goes beyond reason but not against reason. It is known only by divine revelation and is not the subject of "natural" theology (see Heb. 1:1-3, 11:1 and 2 Tim. 3:16, 17). It has been confirmed by miracles (Matt. 3:16, 17; Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:21, 22; John 1:32-34).

The O.T. constantly insists that there is only one God, the self-revealed Creator, who must be worshipped and loved exclusively (Deut. 6:4, 5; Isa. 44:6 - 45:25) and the N.T. agrees (Mark 12:29-30; 1 Cor. 8:4; Eph. 4:6; 1 Tim. 2:5) but speaks of three personal agents, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, working together to bring about salvation (Rom. 8; Eph. 1:3-14; 2 Thess. 2:13, 14; 1 Pet. 1:2).

So, the bible itself teaches the Trinity.

Jesus taught of the Trinity (Matt. 28:19) If there were no Trinity, He would have commanded us to go and baptize people in the name of the Father, and of an exalted man, and of a certain influence of the Father.

Paul taught the Trinity. 2 Cor. 13:14 says, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all." It doesn't say, "The grace of a creature and the love of the Creator and the communion of creative energy be with you all."

Peter recognized the Father and the Son and spoke of a third divine person in Acts 5:3, 4.

John teaches the Trinity in his prayer for grace and peace from the Father, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ in Rev. 1:4, 5.

The Trinity is throughout scripture though the technical language of historic trinitarianism is not found there. Trinitarian faith and thinking are present in all of scripture. In that sense the Trinity must be acknowledged as a biblical doctrine; an eternal truth aboout God which, though never explicit in the O.T., is plain and clear in the N.T.

The basic assertion of this doctrine is that the unity of the one God is complex. The three personal "subsistences" (as they are called) are coequal and coeternal centers of self-awareness, each being "I" in relation to two who are "You" and each partaking of the full divine essence along with the other two. They are not three roles played by one person (that is modalism), nor are they three gods in a cluster (that is tritheism); the one God ("He") is also, and equally, "they," and "they" are always together and always cooperating, with the Father initiationg, the Son complying, and the Spirit executing the will of both, which is His will also. This is the truth about God that was revealed through the words and works of Jesus, and that undergirds the reality of salvation as the N.T. sets it forth.

See the response to the first quote for the bible's usage of singular, personal pronouns. God is one God and three persons. God is He. Your argument in the above quote is with Him and His Word, not with us.

***1 Jn 5:7 is not in the original greek

***We have to question it because God declares himself to be "one". One in greek and Hebrew means one as in the #1, one only.

Right and wrong.

"One" in Hebrew: Yachead is the O.T. word used for absolute unity; a mathematical or numerical one. It is used about twelve times in the O.T., but never to describe the unity of God (Gen. 22:2; Zech. 12:10).

Echad however speaks of a compound or collective unity. In marriage "the two shall be one flesh" (Gen. 2:24); a crowd can gather together "as one" (Ezek. 3:1); or be of one mind or heart: "All the rest of Israel were of one heart to make David king" (1 Chron. 12:38). This is the compound plural ALWAYS used of God when He is called "one" Lord.

There aren't cognates between the hebrew and the greek.

"One" in Greek: "eta nu" or "en." One is one and the context and surrounding words determine the meaning of the "one." A good example is John 17:11, "...that they may be one, as We are." Also used is "mu iota alpha sigma" or "mias." Single or one or first or likeness of one. See 1 Tim. 3:2, "...of one woman."

The lack of a collective "one" in the greek is why the writers named the Members of the Trinity seperately.

Regarding 1 John 5:7, 8 - You are correct when stating that these verses did not appear in early manuscripts. They do not appear in any greek manuscript dated before the tenth century A.D. Only 8 very late greek manuscripts contain the reading, and these contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from a late recension of the Latin Vulgate. Furthermore, 4 of those 8 mss. contain the passage as a variant reading written in the margin as a later addition to the manuscript. No Greek or Latin father, even those involved in Trinitarian controversies, quote them; no ancient version except the Latin records them (not the Old Latin in its early form or the Vulgate).

If you all were on a debate team you would be soundly thrashed. If you want to succeed in your arguments you have to address each SPECIFIC point that I have brought using the biblical and secular historical record, knowledge of church history, and sound hermenuetical procedures. You have done none of these.

But, you don't do this. You tell people to go look things up for themselves. Why would anyone with a neuron accept your arguments anyway? Your definitions are wrong, your premises are faulty and you condemn the Catholic church. How does one study for thirty years and still be such an ***? Prov. 3:7 to you "brother."

No where did Jesus teach that the holy spirit was a seperate person .... not even in John 14-16.

Nice try. Read John 14:26; John 15:26, 27 and John 16:7-15.

End of point.
 

Evangelion

New member
Correction for Theophilus.

Correction for Theophilus.

Oh come on, Theophilus - I expected better from you. :down: Most of your rebuttal was simply plagiarised (without a single word of acknowledgement!) from Dr Norman Geisler.

Here, I'll quote it for you:

__________

The Trinity-Part One.
By Dr. Norman Geisler.


Trinity simply means "triunity." God is not a simple unity; there is plurality in his unity. The Trinity is one of the great mysteries of the Christian Faith. Unlike an antinomy or paradox, which is a logical contradiction, the Trinity goes beyond reason but not against reason. It is known only by divine revelation, so the Trinity is not the subject of natural theology but of revelation.

The Basis for the Trinity.

While the word Trinity does not occur there, the concept is clearly taught in the Bible. The logic of the doctrine of the Trinity is simple. Two biblical truths are evident in Scripture, the logical conclusion of which is the Trinity:

1. There is one God.

2. There are three distinct persons who are God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

One God.
The central teaching of Judaism called the Shema proclaims: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one" (Deut. 6:4). When Jesus was asked the question, "What is the greatest commandment?" he prefaced the answer by quoting theShema (Mark 12:29). In spite of his strong teaching on the deity of Christ (cf. Col. 2:9), the apostle Paul said emphatically, "there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live" (1 Cor. 8:6).

From beginning to end, the Scriptures speak of one God and label all other gods as false (Exod. 20:3; 1 Cor. 8:5-6). The Bible also recognizes a plurality of persons in God. Although the doctrine of the Trinity is not as explicit in the Old Testament as the New Testament, nonetheless, there are passages where members of the Godhead are distinguished. At times they even speak to one another (see Ps. 110:1).

__________

This article may be found at www.ankerberg.com, which is probably where you got it from in the first place. :rolleyes:

By the way, you might want to look into the word "echad." It doesn't mean what you think it means...
 
Last edited:

theophilus

Well-known member
Evangelion,

Evangelion,

Actually I put my answer together from a pile of books beside my computer. Originally it was posted at another site. Maybe I should have made THAT more clear.

The persons involved in the original thread were quoting Geisler, Packer, Bruce, Moreland, etc. It was a long thread and the participants were citing their authors.

I brought the shortened version of one of my replies here for the reference to 1 John 5:7.

Your plagiarism accusation is blatantly false. So is your accusation of where the material came from.

:)

About "echad." What do you think it means?
 

Evangelion

New member
Well, I dunno, Theophilus... it all seems rather fishy to me. :rolleyes: I'm not convinced that you've disproved my accusation, and in any case, since you didn't cite your sources, you've plagiarised by definition.

As for "echad" - well, that's an easy one.

Read your Bible.

:)


PS. I'll be back to discuss this tomorrow. In the meantime, I suggest that a copy of Brown-Driver-Briggs might come in handy. ;)
 
Top