REPORT: Testing the things that differ - By Bob Hill

webby · Oct 9, 2001

Testing the Things that Differ
The doctor walked into the patients room. He could tell by the smell of the room it was Pseudomonas Aeroginosa. An infection by this bacterium in a debilitated patient usually meant death. The only recourse was to choose between two toxic antibiotics with the necessary knowledge, one could be used safely. This patient lived. Fifteen years later another doctor was listening to a pharmaceutical salesman telling him about a new antibiotic. A dying patient had a Pseudomonas infection. The doctor had used all the antibiotics he was familiar with. The salesman tried to convince him that this new antibiotic was the drug of choice for this infection because of its safety and effectiveness. The doctor was too conservative and unwilling to use a drug he was unfamiliar with. The salesman failed to convince him. The next time he saw the doctor, he found out the patient had died. The salesman blamed himself for failing.
We, too, are in a life and death situation. And it depends upon our biblical knowledge. Unless Pauls prayer in Philippians 1:9-11 is fulfilled in us, people are going to die without Christ. And others are going to be in bondage because they are claiming the wrong promises. Lets look at Pauls prayer.
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<li>And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment,10 that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ,11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
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When we look at Philippians 1:9, "And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment," we should see that this is not just any kind of knowledge, it is real knowledge. Notice how this word is used in Romans 10:1,2, "Brethren, my hearts desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge."1 A zeal for God is not enough. It must be according to real knowledge. When that knowledge is distorted, problems multiply. Then, as we look at the next word, and all discernment [perception, insight, experience], we see that Paul was inspired to write that our love must be a knowledgeable, perceptive, insightful love.
Then we see why you need this knowledgeable, insightful love. You need it so "that you may approve the things that are excellent". This translation is acceptable, but it misses the point. What we really should be doing, is test things that differ, and then approve the things that are more excellent. The Greek dictionary meaning for this word always means differ when used intransitively.2
Notice its usage in 1 Thessalonians 5:21, "Test all things; hold fast what is good." Then, when Paul was writing to the religious Jew who thought he had it made because of his own righteousness, he wrote, Romans 2:18, "and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent [Testing the things differing. Our phrase again.], being instructed out of the law".
Then, Paul continued in Philippians 1:10, "that you may be sincere [judged by sunlight, unalloyed, pure] and without offense till the day of Christ, 11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God. I would translate the whole passage this way:
And this I pray
in order that your love may yet more and more overflow in knowledge and all perception,
(Love is not enough. It must have real knowledge and perception.)
with this in view that you test the things that differ
in order that you may be pure and inoffensive
(The central focus is knowledge that produces love, the love of Christ which is flooding their souls. Theyll be loving when they evangelize or discuss theology.)
with this in view the day of Christ (because they would be those) having been filled the fruits of righteousness [the fruits] through Jesus Christ
with this in view [the] glory and praise of God.
Our reward from God depends on two things: Testing things that differ. Living our lives in the Spirit. A parallel in Colossians 3:23,24 says, "And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ." Another parallel in 2 Timothy 2:15 says, "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." And its all put together in Colossians 1:24b-2:2:
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<li>I became a minister (of His body, the church) according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. 29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily. 2:1 For I want you to know what a great conflict I have for you and those in Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh, 2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ.
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Now, I might ask, what are you going to do? If your tendency is to knowledge, will you concentrate on loving God and others, more? And, if your tendency is feeling, will you learn Gods word better so you can present His message of grace better? If you are willing, well test the things that differ in this dispensation from things in other dispensations.
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Testing the Things That Differ
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I heard two theologians debating about works for salvation on the radio. One, a Catholic scholar, maintained that works were important for salvation. The other one, a systematic theologian, maintained that the justification in James was not for salvation. Neither one could prove their position consistently. When I was on the radio some years ago, one subject kept coming up. A lady called in about her security of salvation. Another asked if she had to be baptized to be saved. Another wondered if her addiction (which she was fighting) would keep her from being saved. A guy called in a lot. He told us he thought we were heretics. That we made salvation too easy. That we needed to follow Christs teachings to be saved.
How do these kinds of questions and statements affect you? They cause me great concern. Concern for both the Christians and the non-Christians of this world. When these questions surfaced in Galatia, Paul was amazed. Notice what he wrote in Galatians 1:6-9.
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<li>Im amazed that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
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When these questions come up, and they do, all the time, how should we feel? If Paul was inspired to write in verse 8, "even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed", then, should we get upset? I dont mean, should we act in an unloving manner. Then, the answer would be, No! Since the purpose of the message of grace is love according to 1 Timothy 1:5, Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, I mean, should we be concerned?
Is it right to be as concerned as Paul was with the Galatians? I believe the answer is, Yes! And we must not only be concerned, but we must test the things that differ, because lives are at stake. Paul was "afraid for" those in the churches of Galatia. Notice what he wrote in, Gal 4:9-11.
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<li>But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.
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Well, what is the basis for testing the things that differ and why do we have such a problem? Christ was sent only to Israel. Matthew 15:24 shows this, "But He answered and said, I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." In support of this, Paul was inspired to write Romans 15:8, "Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers."
When Israel rejected Christ, God raised up Paul with a different commission.
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Peter & the eleven and Paul were under different dispensations.
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Peter & the Eleven</center>
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Offered the Davidic kingdom
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Acts 1:6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" Acts 3:18-21 "But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."</td>
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Paul</center>
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Mystery, Grace
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Eph 3:1-9 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles; 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the <strike>fellowship</strike> [dispensation] of the mystery, which has been hidden from the of ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.</td>
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Different gospels
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Peter (Circumcision)</center>
Gal 2:7-9 as the gospel of the circumcision [had been committed to] to Peter.
and they [the twelve] to the circumcised</td>
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Paul (Uncircumcision)</center>
Gal 2:7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision had been committed to me.
we [Paul and Barnabas] should go to the Gentiles</td>
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Here is the whole passage. Galatians 2:7-9 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel of8 the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
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Circumcision Gospel Gentile (Uncircumcision) Gospel
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The Mission of the Twelve</center>
Mk 16:15-18 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."</td>
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The Mission of Paul</center>
1 Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
Gal 1:11,12 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.</td>
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For Salvation
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Works</center>
Acts 10:34,35 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him."</td>
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No Works</center>
Rom 4:4,5 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.</td>
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For Salvation
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Water Baptism</center>
Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
1 Pet 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves usbaptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.</td>
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Spirit Baptism</center>
1 Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
Eph 4:4,5 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Spiritual].</td>
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Prayer
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Whatever Prayers</center>
Mat 21:22 And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.
Mk 11:24 Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them.
John 14:13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.
John 16:23 Whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you.
1 Jo 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
1 Jo 5:15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.</td>
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No Whatever Prayers</center>
2 Cor 12:8-10 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christs sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
Phi 4:6,7 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; 7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.</td>
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Health and Prosperity
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<td valign="top" width="50%" bgcolor="#99cc99">Sign Gifts
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
Mark 16:17,18 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.
Jam 5:14,15 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
3 John 2 Beloved, I pray [or wish]that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers.</td>
<td valign="top" width="50%" bgcolor="#ffffcc">Sign Gifts Pass Away
2 Co 12:7-10 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me [not given by God (Jam 1:16,17), but allowed as with Job], a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness. Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
1 Ti 5:23 No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities.
2 Ti 4:20 Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick.</td>
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Security of the Believer
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Sin unto death</center>
1 Jo 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.</td>
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Dead to Sin</center>
Rom 6:3,11 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 11 Likewise you also, recognize yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.</td>
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Security of the Believer
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Make Your Election Sure</center>
Mat 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Mat 24:13,14 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
2 Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble.
1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.</td>
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Sure of Your Election</center>
Eph 1:4,5,11-14 He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.</td>
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What should we do? First concentrate on loving God. Then, get concerned and learn how to present Gods message of grace. Then, lovingly share Gods wonderful gospel of Grace. Then spend time teaching the message of grace to those who are faithful.

Crow · Jun 7, 2003

I think it's pretty good.

One of the reasons I was not a Christian for many years was that I would pick up a Bible, and read it, and would be slapped in the face with numerous contradictions. I came to the conclusion that God was either a chimera of people's ideas or a figment of people's imaginations. At best, I thought God was a schizophrenic who couldn't keep his agenda straight or some sort of divine trickster, sort of like Loki in mythology.
I came back and poured though the Bible sporadically over the years--my dad's influence. I went to several churches over the years, and observed interesting phenomena--talking in tongues was the best--I kept watching to see if their heads would rotate too. People in some of these churches made it very clear that if you did not manifest some of these unusual "gifts," which I viewed to be as much of a gift as, say, epileptic fits, then you could not be a Christian. That was a silly one. The cruelest one was that God would heal you or fix things if you only asked. Time and time again I saw people's hearts broken when the healing or miracle did not come, people questioning "why not me" or "what's wrong with me that it didn't happen?" People who felt abandoned and betrayed by God.
I went to other churches, and saw salvation portrayed, probably unwittingly, as a reward for a good life, doing the right thing, etc. It seemed like you earned your way to salvation--showed up for church, paid your holy 10% excise tax, didn't commit a long list of sins which varied from church to church.
Everywhere I went, nothing fit in. Nothing tied together. Nothing made sense.
It was not until I bought a book called "The Plot" that everything came together and made sense. For me, faith never came until I had knowledge--everyone is not like that, but that's the way I am wired. It all came in a giant realization, a feeling that I cannot describe well. To this day, I feel that way at times--it's a sense of the very strangeness that life and consciousness exists at all, and at the same time, a deep connection with God. A sense that there is a very real order and reason behind everything. This is a totally inadequate explaination--I am not capable of relating it entirely.
Anyway, this type of breakdown and making stuff clear was a lifesaver for me. I like it.

.Ant · Jun 7, 2003

Have I misundastood?

Have I misundastood?

I agree with you Crow (apart from liking the above). You can't have faith without knowledge. You can't have real love without real knowledge. But this is not the same as saying that as knowledge increases, so does love - as the verse I quoted shows.

There is lots of conflicting preaching out there. But that does not mean the Bible contains contradictions or has "different dispensations". The two "dispensations" presented above are part of the same thing, and do not contradict, when you examine the issue more closely.

Crow · Jun 7, 2003

Actually, I see promises to Israel and the Gentiles as being two different things. It's not like God made only one covenant with mankind. Regardless, this is what works for me, and I am happy with it. It may not work for you, and who knows--my beliefs and yours may well both hold some falacies--we'll probably all have a few suprises after this life. We are saved by grace through faith--that is the core, so I don't have any doubts. Now, do I think both of these dispensations exist today? No. Christ fulfilled the law, so the first has passed. Do I feel that my salvation hinges on whether I believe in dispensationalism or not?---:chuckle:

.Ant · Jun 8, 2003

There we go, we agree. We're under the new covenant

billwald · Sep 24, 2003

What do you do with 1 John?

1Way · Oct 12, 2003

Bilwald, what do you mean by saying “What do you do with 1 John?”?

Who are you talking to? What point are your trying to make? What point are you addressing or refuting or debating or inquiring about?

I do with any part of the bible what I do with any part of the bible, I read it, I honor it for the intended meaning it conveys. Which usually means that I first have to understand who wrote what to whom and why. Basically, that is saying that you need to have a good solid understanding of the bible’s whole story and plot twists so that you will not easily violate the context that every teaching fits into.

Generally speaking, circumcision writers wrote to the ... circumcision.

and

Uncircumcision writings were directed to the ... uncircumcision.

John, who is one of the twelve who agreed to go unto the circumcised and Paul unto the uncircumcised, wrote to the circumcision, and not to the uncircumcision. The body of Christ is not cut off from God, but the bride of Christ (Israel) is cut off from God and are enemies to the body of Christ for the sake of the gospel, but are also beloved for the sake of the fathers (of their faith). So it would be wise of you to not mix yourself in with them and their dispensation.

1Way · Oct 12, 2003

.Ant – You said

There is lots of conflicting preaching out there. But that does not mean the Bible contains contradictions or has "different dispensations". The two "dispensations" presented above are part of the same thing, and do not contradict, when you examine the issue more closely.

The teaching of different dispensations are grossly manifest even if the bible never used the term. God has changed the way He deals with man in significant ways. It has been said by covenant theologians that the bible teaches about different dispensations, so the root foundational idea of dispensationalism, = different dispensations is not really in question, even by those who most vigorously oppose dispensationalism. So I have no idea where you are getting your information from, but it certainly is not from the bible. Let me demonstrate some of the most common dispensational differences that I think any bible student should agree with.

Innocence = prefall man who had no need of a savior because they were already right with God

Human government = after Cain killed Able and God forbade the death penalty and gave no governmental commandments, and the world became exceedingly wicked such that God finally commited genocide with the global flood.

Law = God established many laws starting with capitol punishment when Noah was commanded to obey that ordinance, and really picked up with Abraham and Moses.

Grace = God teaches us to leave the law like a tutor and go to God by faith instead.

When you examine some of the laws, like the Sabbath and things unclean and the dietary laws for example, it becomes quite apparent that after this dispensation is over, the last dispensation of law, which was not fulfilled, will become fulfilled.

Today in the dispensation of grace and mystery, we are taught that it is ok to eat meat that may have been sacrificed to idols, even though that teaching is expressly prohibited by the law of God and in the book of revelation God says that Jesus holds that sin against two different churches for allowing or promoting eating things sacrificed to idols!

So if you want to avoid contradicting scripture, you need to conform to the differences that are quite obvious once you simply think about them. Today, in this dispensation, it’s ok to eat things that were sacrificed to idols, but prior to and after this dispensation, such a thing would be sinful to do.

Go by God’s word, not manmade thinking!

billwald · Aug 21, 2004

This is a variation of the ultradispensationalism taught by some Plymouth Brethern and others. It leads to the conclusion that the Church began with Paul's teaching, not at Pentecost (typical diapensational) or with Adam or Abraham (typical reformed).

billwald · Aug 21, 2004

1 John presents the only check list in the Bible the purpose is for the Christian to "know that he is saved," 1 John 5:13.

(I posted and then lost track of the thread) "What do you do with 1 John?" because:

Bob Hill quotes 1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments to "prove" that John was writing or referring to some time before Paul founded the Church.

Ultradispensationalists, even plain old dispensationalists, forget that the NT has a chronology. Specifically, that the Gospels were written well after Paul's letters and that 1 John was probably one of the last books written. So it doesn't compute to claim that Paul's letters were a commentary on or a correction of the Gospels. More likely that the Gospels were a correction of Paul's writings.

billwald · Aug 21, 2004

"Actually, I see promises to Israel and the Gentiles as being two different things."

Crow is correct. The origional "Christian" use of "dispensations" I believe was by Augustine but he meant it as a convenient way to talk about historical periods, just as we talk about the "Truman administration" (if we could only have HIM back for this election . . . .) or the "Kennedy administration." Truman and Kennedy "administered" the rules set down by the Constitution. They didn't change the rules. Dispensationalists describe history as a series of experiments in which God changes the rules every thousand or so in hope than He will get it right and find something that works.

"Administration" was chosen intentionally because that is the meaning of the Latin (Greek?) word that Augustine used.

Instead of changing the rules for every administrator, he actually makes two sets of promises (as Crow noted) for two sets of people, the general population and the elect population. The elect set is a sub set of the general set. (draw some Venn Diagrams for your self and see which computes).

The successive "general" covenants (legal contracts) and the successive "elect" covenants are cumulative, additive, not replacements.

The "bruise heel" statement to Adam and the unilateral promises are for the elect. The "no flood" promise to Noah was to all humanity, the general set.

The Mosiac Covenant was strictly a social contract for people in the general set who came out of Egypt and entered the Land. ALL the blessings and cursings are temporal. There is not one "eternal" component in it. Note that one of the Ten Words (even) states "for long life in the land." Every person who lives in the land, gentile or Jew, general or elect, is obligated the Mosiac Covenant. No gentile outside the Land is.

As goofy as some of Paul's writing are, with one exception, Paul recognizes this classification. How? Note that every time (one exception) he refers to "Israel" he is complimentary or positive because he is talking about the elect subset and every time he mentions "Jews," he is bad mouthing people NOT in the elect subset.

Turbo · Aug 21, 2004

Originally posted by billwald

So it doesn't compute to claim that Paul's letters were a commentary on or a correction of the Gospels.

I have never known a dispensationalist to make such a claim.

More likely that the Gospels were a correction of Paul's writings.

You can't get around the fact that Peter counted Paul's epistles among the Scriptures, billwald.

1Way · Aug 29, 2004

Bilwald

:shut:

You are confusing

when a writing was written,
with a time period's chronology.

:shut:
It makes no meaningful difference when the various books of the NT were written, what matters in terms of timing is the chronology they recorded, the timing of events expressed in the context of the writings. :shut:

Also, scripture is not given to CORRECT previous scripture... (What are you thinking?) (Or better yet, why are you not thinking?) There is no incorrect scriptures to correct, there is however, an abundance of incorrect human understanding, like your false assertions for a good example.

:shut:
:freak:

We dispensationalists forget about the NT chronology...

:darwinsm:

Dispensationalism (i.e. various different dispensations that God created) is an accurate observation of what the bible teaches. Your general attacks against that are thus quite unbiblical.

1Way · Aug 29, 2004

Bilwald

You said (some "formatting" added for emphasis)

QUOTE

:dunce: As :bannana: goofy :devil: as some of Paul's :Servent: writings are, with one exception, Paul recognizes this classification. How? Note that every time (one exception) he refers to "Israel" he is complimentary or positive because he is talking about the elect subset and every time he mentions "Jews," he is bad mouthing people NOT in the elect subset.

END QUOTE

What in the world are you talking about?

Goofy...

Please start with your one exception.

.Ant · May 31, 2005

Sure, 1Way, I agree with your post - it's what I meant by different covenants. But I don't think Paul was "under a different dispensation" to the other disciples.

Bob Hill · Nov 6, 2005

Billwald,

It says in James 1:22-25 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty [the Mosaic law] and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

Notice, it is the one “who looks into the perfect law of liberty [the Mosaic law] and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.” However, if he doesn’t, he will lose his salvation.

It says in James 2:8-12 If you really fulfill the royal law [the Mosaic law] according to the Scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, Do not commit adultery, also said, Do not murder. Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

Here also, they do not have eternal security. They have to “fulfill the royal law”. If they don’t fulfill it, they “will be judged by the law of liberty.”

In 2 Peter 2:20-22 it says: “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

In contrast, in Paul’s epistles, God inspired him to write about the position of members of the Body of Christ. They/we cannot lose our salvation. When people trust Christ as their Savior, they are in Christ. Then, they become part of God’s predestined plan and can therefore never lose their place with God. This is what it says in Rom 9:30-10:4: “What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written: “Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” Chapter 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

If the Gentiles do continue in this same attitude that the majority of Israel had, God said through Paul, “Watch out!” However, our eternal security is absolute. We cannot lose it. After we trusted in Christ, not only are we secure, but we also became part of the predestined body of believers. After we believed, we became holy and blameless in Christ as our savior. The important aspects of our security are our adoption and sealing.

According to Gal 4:3-5 we went from slaves to adopted sons. Gal 4:3-5 “Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.”

Now, what does this adoption mean? We read in Gal 3:13-18, “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree’, 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant [or will], yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.

How could Paul write that? We can change a will any time we want to, in America today. But the Galatian cities were under Greek law. And it was different under ancient Greek law. The greatest archeologist of Turkey, William Ramsay, wrote a lot about adoption in his Historical Commentary of Galatians, pp 349-355. He showed how the adopted son could not be disinherited even though the natural child could be disinherited.

That’s the kind of security we have according to Eph 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him [We are in Christ once we trust Him as our savior. Anyone in Him is chosen to be holy and blameless.] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.

We enter into the full status of our inheritance and enjoyment of our adoption when the rapture takes place and we receive our glorified body, so the time of our adoption, at the rapture, is shown in Rom 8:14-23 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs; heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, [We have the opportunity to be “joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him.”] that we may also be glorified together. [But, what if we are not willing to suffer with Him? Then, we will be with Him, but not receiving the joint heir position.] 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

We also have the present results of our adoption. Gal 4:4-7 “But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Finally, to show the surety of our adoption/salvation, God seals us and guarantees our inheritance and makes it all absolute by predestinating it. Eph 1:5-7,11-14 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works the all things [ta panta, which is the body of Christ] according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.

Then, it even gets more secure. It continues with “in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.”

Our salvation is guaranteed and sealed by God. On top of that, it is all predestined. You can’t beat that.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

REPORT: Testing the things that differ - By Bob Hill

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