ECT Replacement (Reformed) Theology...is wrong.

Danoh

New member
Case in point, to those of you who hold that God is through with Israel - lay out your take on what you hold the following passages...

1- are asserting...

and what you think...

2- the Dispy is asserting...

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Get ready to be proven wrong...for your own good.
 

Crucible

BANNED
Banned
Replacement theology is a brash way to put it, in fact it may even be derogatory. A better way would be to say 'covenant theology'- it is the belief that the Christian church is Spiritual Israel.

And it is not something only the Reformed believe, but all of Christianity.

Everybody except MADists.
(because they are a cult)
 

Danoh

New member
Replacement theology is a brash way to put it, in fact it may even be derogatory. A better way would be to say 'covenant theology'- it is the belief that the Christian church is Spiritual Israel.

And it is not something only the Reformed believe, but all of Christianity.

Everybody except MADists.
(because they are a cult)

Prove your assertion thru those passages - Replacementist.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
God was never after the natural man - national Israel is incidental to what God is after. They are not all Israel who are of Israel. He is not a Jew who is one outwardly. Jerusalem that is in Arabia is still in bondage - but the Jerusalem that is above is free, and the mother of us all. Jesus thought little about the natural lineage the Pharisees tried to claim - indeed, calling them children of the devil - and said that the flesh profits nothing. So when we go back to the beginning of any convenant with the nation of Israel, it is found in the promise to Abraham :

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Galatians 3:13-16

In other words, it has nothing to do with God being done with Israel - but rather that the spiritual Israel that God is after is what He has always been about. It is now realized in what we call the church - which is nothing other than Abraham's descendants by faith. That is the Israel of God and it always has been.

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Romans 11:7

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Ephesians 2:11-17

That's what the OT is all about.

So what is the benefit of being of national Israel?

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Romans 3:1-2

But because of unbelief, that benefit turned to a curse. And Paul goes on to say this :

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 3:21-22

So....

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Romans 3:28-30

Because the just shall live by faith (Hab 2:4 and Rom 1:17). In other words, natural Israel is just as doomed as the rest of the world apart from faith - and the Israel of God comprises more than just the believing from national Israel.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Case in point, to those of you who hold that God is through with Israel - lay out your take on what you hold the following passages...
From a biblical theological perspective it is important to stress that Jesus is the Israel of God who was made under the law, fulfilled the stipulations of Israel's covenant, and is declared to be the Son of God by His resurrection from the dead. The true Israel is not the church in and of itself, but those who are united to Christ by faith, that is, are "in Christ." Those who are united to Christ by faith are the church, members of Christ, the Israel of God, whether they be Jew or Gentile.

The unity of both the OT and NT covenant is clearly taught in Scripture…
• Its promise was the same (Ex 19:4-6 cf 1 Pet 2:5,9; Jer 31:33 cf 2 Cor 6:16)
• Its condition was the same – faith (Gen 15:6 cf Rom 4:3)
• The object of this faith was the same – Christ (John 8:56; Acts 2:25-32; Heb 4:2)
This is why Christians are made partakers of the blessing of Abraham (Gal 3:8,9,14)

As soon as someone uses "Replacement Theology" when discussing covenantalism, it is a signal they don't know what they are talking about.

Covenantalists reject "replacement theology", and I don't think anyone can find a single covenantalist that would accept the term. Covenantalists follow grafted theology. One vine: Christ, one, Israel, the people of God. From Ephesians 2:15, Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Persons tossing out the "replacement theology" term say so because they have already decided to keep the two distinct. Thus, you will read them saying, "Covenantalists have taken over the promises made to Israel". Error! They should be saying "Covenantalists have joined the true Israel, Christ, along with Old Testament believers, who were "of Israel"." (Romans 9:6).

Contrary to Paul's clear teachings, the persons who toss out "replacement theology" do not believe Christ is the goal of the law (Romans 10:4), that in Him it is finished. These same persons think the goals of the Old Testament have not been accomplished, that the Temple is returning, and that God has two intentions for different "peoples". Sigh.

The Biblical historical account of God's plan of redemption is divided into two major covenants, the Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Grace, describing all of God’s sovereign dealings with mankind.

We are saved because Christ fulfilled the Covenant of Works by His perfect obedience. Thus, the Reformed claim our salvation is a covenant salvation.
1. The mercies of our covenant salvation are our regeneration, justification, adoption, and sanctification.
2. Election was God’s choice of the members of God’s final, purified, covenant community—the invisible church.
3. The Supper and Baptism are covenant sacraments.
4. God’s Law is covenant law, which we keep in gratitude and loyalty, as a response to God’s grace.

There is also the idea of the eternal covenant between the three persons in the divine being itself, called the Covenant of Redemption. You may also see this as called the pactum salutis, the intra-trinitarian pact of salvation, or counsel of peace.

Despite a lack of universal acceptance within Reformed theology, the Covenant of Redemption, does offer some perceived benefits:

(1) “The pact of salvation makes known to us the relationships and life of the three persons in the Divine Being as a covenantal life, a life of consummate self-consciousness and freedom” (Bavinck).
(2) “[F]orms the link between the eternal work of God toward salvation and what he does to that end in time” (Bavinck).

The Covenant of Works

1. God’s arrangement between Himself and Adam before Adam’s fall into sin.
2. God promised to bless Adam if he obeyed God’s commands (Genesis 1:28-30).
3. Adam’s obedience (works) was required (see also Hosea 6:7).
4. Adam failed this test from God, and, in His mercy, God established a second covenant.

The Covenant of Grace

1. The Covenant of Grace describes God’s relationship with His people throughout the rest of Scripture.
2. It can be said that the covenant was made with Christ, the last Adam, the representative of all of redeemed mankind.
3. The Covenant of Grace begins in our history with the promises made after the Fall of mankind, Genesis 3:15.

The unfolding of the one eternal Covenant of Grace can also be seen in its major administrations:

1. Covenant of Nature made with Noah (Genesis 6:18; 9:9-17).
2. Abrahamic Covenant made with Abraham (Genesis 15, 17).
3. Covenant of Law made with Israel via Moses (Exodus 19-24).
4. Davidic Royal Covenant made with David (2 Samuel 7; Psalm 89, 132).
5. New Covenant established by Christ (Jeremiah 31; Luke 22:20; 1 Corinthians 11:25; Hebrews 8:8-13).
  • The New Covenant arrives in three stages: Christ’s first comings, the unfolding history before Christ’s Second Coming, and consummation of Christ’s kingdom.

New Covenant administration represents the ultimate expression of God’s single eternal Covenant of Grace with sinners (Hebrews 13:20). That said, per Bavinck, [t]he road was the same on which believers in the Old and the New Testaments walked, but the light in which they walked was different. So in a sense we can say that those experiencing the New Covenant have better promises (Hebrews 8:6), a better sacrifice (Hebrews 9:23), a better High Priest with a better sanctuary (Hebrews 7:26-8:13), and a better hope than what was found in the former explicit OT expressions of the Covenant of Grace.

Useful links for digging deeper:

A chart:
http://www.faithbibleonline.net/MiscDoctrine/DispCov.htm

Packer on Covenantalism:
http://gospelpedlar.com/articles/Bible/cov_theo.html

AMR
 

Danoh

New member
I read and greatly appreciate both your input...especially yours, AMR; you are ever so thorough, brother.

You two are two who's posts I have always enjoyed.

Even in light of our differing view.

But neither of you addressed the sense of the passages I cited in the OP.

Thanks again, nevertheless.
 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
lay out your take on what you hold the following passages...

1- are asserting...

and what you think...

2- the Dispy is asserting...

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
I'll have a go of it, though my answer disagrees with replacement, reformed, and dispensational teaching. Something for everyone to love. :D

The problem is the dichotomy of Israel vs. Church that underlies the question. Those aren't the groups in question.

The two groups that the Bible talks about are true Israel and false Israel. Neither one started in the 1st century. They both start somewhere around the 14th century BC.

Israel came out of Egypt by God's mighty hand... but everyone else benefited, too. Lots of folks were under Pharoah's thumb, and when his army and country were wiped out in a month's time, they took advantage.

Israel marched out... straight into suddenly-empowered Midian, and intermarried with the Midianites. Then they headed north through Edomite territory, and intermarried with Edom. After beating a path into the back-side of the desert for 40 years, they finally entered Canaan. They promptly cut treaties with the Gibeonites and intermarried with the Canaanites they were supposed to eradicate.

All... those people... came to be the nations of Israel and Judah, at least after the flesh. After the Spirit, some were Jacob but some were Esau, some were Israel but some were Edom.

The chapter you chose says it succinctly - "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" (verse 6)

So then, the "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" were the Canaanites living in the promised land. God had ordained them to destruction as just penalty for their terrible crimes. But when they became intermingled with His chosen people, the "vessels of mercy" in the verse, God instead "endured with much longsuffering" their continued existence.

This is why the Old Testament spends so much time talking about the Jews not intermarrying. This is why national Israel struggled with idolatry - the enemy literally sewed Israel with "other seed," which was growing up alongside the good seed.

But what was good for the goose also worked for the Gander. When Israel and then Judah went into diaspora, all the pagan world ended up sewn with the good seed, leaving bits of true israel everywhere among the nations.

The gospels are written against the backdrop of a land where everyone understood that half of Judah was false, but didn't have a good way to separate the two. That's why we have all this talk of tares and wheat, of lambs and goats, and most of all, of a coming day when the two would be separated.

And, Jesus also talks about "other sheep" who would be gathered to the fold. So then, the church is not a replacement for Israel. Rather, the church is the continuation of true Israel. God winnowed Israel, and destroyed the false part. To that remnant, he brought a harvest from among the nations, where seeds sewn long before bore fruit as soon as they heard the gospel message.

The passage in Hosea which is quoted in Romans 9 predicted it perfectly. Israel was called "not my people" and went into exile and perdition, becoming truly not a people at all. But then, in the space of a few decades, the preaching of the gospel brought Israel back to life, and gathered her to the faithful remnant of Judah.

That's what the church is. And that's pretty much the Bible explained.
 

Danoh

New member
Lol - gotta luv ya, bro. Ya tried.

Let me know when you actually breakdown/post on those passages in the OP.

:)
 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
Lol - gotta luv ya, bro. Ya tried.

Let me know when you actually breakdown/post on those passages in the OP.

:)
I know it's a long post, but if you actually read it, you will find that I quoted and explained virtually all of the verses in Romans 9 that you laid out.

Jarrod
 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
Romans 9:6 For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel

Part of the nation of Israel, was not descended from Abraham. They were descended from the Canaanites and Edomites that Israel intermarried with. They were rotten.

Romans 9:22 God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
God told Israel to destroy the Canaanites. But God put up with the fact that they married them instead, for a long, long time.

Romans 9:23-24 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Why'd God put up with it? So that He could have mercy on the chosen people, until the time when He could sort out the good from the bad.

In the meantime, God did something else too. By sending Israel into exile, He caused Abraham's descendants to be scattered throughout all the nations, even Gentile nations.


Romans 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Osee = Hosea. The prophet told Israel they were 'not my people' in Hosea chapter 1.

But remember all those scattered descendants of Abraham scattered everywhere? When Paul and the apostles preached the gospel to Abraham's true seed, they accepted it. They suddenly became a nation again.

For more details, see the longer post which I already posted. :p
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
I read and greatly appreciate both your input...especially yours, AMR; you are ever so thorough, brother.

You two are two who's posts I have always enjoyed.

Even in light of our differing view.

But neither of you addressed the sense of the passages I cited in the OP.

Thanks again, nevertheless.

Kind words. Thank you (and AMR is certainly far more deserving of them).

As to the OP, my initial response was to clarify, first of all, that there seems to be essentially a dual view here - that all those that are not dispensationalist are replacement theology adherents. I admit that it can appear that way, but I think that comes because the dispensationalist viewpoint is what it is contrasted against (i.e. either God is going to fulfill His promise to Israel or He won't). The definition of who is Israel is vital to the distinction. So in reviewing Romans 9, I point out the following :

1. Romans 9:1-5 outlines the benefits and distinctions of Israel after the flesh (all that God gave to national Israel) :

Spoiler
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Romans 9:1-5


2. Romans 9:6-8 is Paul's way of saying "...but...the Israel of God is not necessarily the Israel mentioned above"

Spoiler
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Romans 9:6-8


Note what verse 6 says as though to counter the thought that God hasn't followed through on His promises to Israel ("Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect...".

And verse 7 and 8 really define who the promises are to...

3. Paul then goes on to speak about the election mentioned earlier...

Spoiler
And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Romans 9:10-23


Note that God endures with longsuffering those vessels of wrath fitted to destruction...and who are those vessels of mercy? The passage above ends with no description of who that is, but Paul goes on to say who it is :

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Romans 9:24

4. That, then, is the context for the next couple of verses :

As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Romans 9:25-26

The context again is the first few verses. Yes - of natural Israel, but again distinguishing between the natural and the spiritual. For, as he goes on...

Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Romans 9:27

And hearkening back to verse 6, this makes perfect sense.

The dispensationalist sees these as different vessels...different peoples...but Paul sees them all in light of either the seed of Abraham (i.e. of Christ) or not.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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I read and greatly appreciate both your input...especially yours, AMR; you are ever so thorough, brother.

You two are two who's posts I have always enjoyed.

Even in light of our differing view.

But neither of you addressed the sense of the passages I cited in the OP.

Thanks again, nevertheless.
Kind words. Thank you.

If you are a proponent of what is called New Covenant Theology (NCT), I reject that as but a dispensational perspective that appeals to Baptists with covenantal leanings (Reformed Baptists). My post deals simply with the new covenant administration of the Covenant of Grace brought about by Our Lord's active and passive obedience in His fulfillment of the Covenant of Works on behalf of those given to Him by God the Father. The types, shadows, blood sacrifices, etc., of the administration of the Covenant of Grace in the OT are now abrogated (but not the moral law as everyone's duty) and made more perfect in the new covenant. Like I noted earlier, persons in the OT were saved in the same way as all are now.

AMR
 

northwye

New member
Replacement theology is a label which dispensationalists apply to all those who do not believe that Old Covenant Israel and the Old Covenant still exist. This calling of everyone who disagrees with them Replacement Theologians is done to discredit them. Dispensationalits use personal attacks quote often because spinning scripture to prove their doctrines are scriptural does not work very well.

"Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel." Jeremiah 18: 3-6

To remake something does not mean the same thing as replacing it. Old Covenant Israel was remade in Jesus Christ, and after that Old Covenant Israel no longer existed in the form it had been in before.

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10: 16 The other sheep were the non-Jews, who were predicted in Hosea 2: 23 to become part of God's people. Romans 10: 12 and Galatians 3: 28 say there is no difference between those who were Jews and those who were not Jews in Christ.

Romans 12: 4-5 says "For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5. So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another."

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;" Ephesians 4: 4

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8. How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9. For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." II Corinthians 3: 7-11

He is calling the Old Covenant the ministration of death and of condemnation and in verse 11 he says the Old Covenant was done away.

Hebrews 10: 9, "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." What could the writer of Hebrews mean here other than that Christ took away the Old Covenant so he could establish the New Covenant? He talks about the Old Covenant in Hebrews 9:1, and in Hebrews 10: 4 he mentions the animal sacrifice system of the Old Covenant. In Hebrews 10: 5-7 he talks about God preparing a body - which is Christ - meaning that this body of Christ was to be superior to animal sacrifices for remission of sin. The entire Old Covenant was done away with, not just animal sacrifice alone.
 

Danoh

New member
Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

The point is, what is it that Paul appears to be talking about, or asserting...in verses 25-26?

The three general views are that he is talking about Israel as that is who Hosea had been addressing; that he is using those passages as an analogy that he then applies to the Gentiles because Gentiles were also no people; or that Hosea was actually talking about Gentiles.

To me, none of those fit.

Paul is talking about GOD.

In each case in which Paul quotes the OT in Romans 9 - he uses them to point out from one instance or another from ISRAEL'S history some aspect of GOD - one case or another in which GOD had followed a specific pattern or course of action.

A pattern that Paul is asserting GOD is repeating once more; this time...in Paul's day.

Thus, in the passages I cited, it is GOD Himself once more Who is being portrayed by Paul as following a recurrent pattern in His dealings with creation.

Its all right there in Romans 9.

No need for books "about" by the various, ever endless Dr So and so's...

No need even, to go back and read the OT passages Paul cites there in Romans 9.

As people do with the Potter passages, the Olive tree passages in Rm. 11, and so on.

Rather, the thing to do is to seek to identify what governing principle or principles Paul appears to be asserting, or pointing to.

For it is what he is operating from, as he describes what he descrobes.

For it then points to where he is asserting what he is asserting...from.

Once that is firmly established, then read the OT passages he is citing in THEIR context, where the above same process starts...all over again.

But what Paul first establishes in Romans 9, is a recurrent pattern of behavior on GOD'S part.

And he does that through several examples of GOD'S behavior in Israel's past.

It is based on that that he then says what he says in the passages cited in the OP.

The result being one more example from Israel's past concerning a recurrent pattern of behavior and or response...on GOD'S part...

There is an analogy there. Just not the one some might conclude.

Note...

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Just as in Paul's other examples there in Romans 9....Romans 9:22 had also happened before, in Israel's history.

Paul's day had not been the first time in Israel's history that God had delayed His wrath as to Israel BEFORE His mercy as to Israel, that He might FIRST carry out some OTHER purpose...He had planned on...all along.

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Paul is asserting...that God is NOT through with Israel.

Rather...that He is ONCE MORE...doing something else...FIRST.
 

Danoh

New member
Kind words. Thank you.

If you are a proponent of what is called New Covenant Theology (NCT), I reject that as but a dispensational perspective that appeals to Baptists with covenantal leanings (Reformed Baptists). My post deals simply with the new covenant administration of the Covenant of Grace brought about by Our Lord's active and passive obedience in His fulfillment of the Covenant of Works on behalf of those given to Him by God the Father. The types, shadows, blood sacrifices, etc., of the administration of the Covenant of Grace in the OT are now abrogated (but not the moral law as everyone's duty) and made more perfect in the new covenant. Like I noted earlier, persons in the OT were saved in the same way as all are now.

AMR

Lol, one could say some suffer from trans theology dysphoria.

Both New Covenant Theology (NCT) and "Progressive" Dispensationalism (PD) intended at solving through reasoning the anxiety over inresolved theological issues that some who hold to Acts 2 Dispensationalism (A2D) and some who hold to Reformed Theology (RT) end up being unable to shake.

The idea within both being that of purporting to solve for the dysphoria by simply marrying both theologies into one.

And that will have its' appeal for some.

In fact, it has had said appeal for many.

But all it is...is one more extreme.

The red headed step child of both Reformed and Acts 2 Theology.

R2D2...meet C3PO...
 
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