Real Science Radio: Schooling National Geographic on Camels

[Jefferson]

RSR: Schooling National Geographic on Camels

This is the show from Friday March 7th, 2014

Summary:

* National Geographic, not Bible, Wrong on Camels: You just can't make this stuff up...

Spoiler

* Extensive Evidence of Camels in Abraham's Day: Genesis is proved right again. Too bad National Geographic didn't first talk to archaeologist Dr. Titus Kennedy (who we learned about through the Associates for Biblical Research). If the Nat'l Geographic editors had, they would not have published their overtly false article last month claiming that Abraham could not have had domesticated animals as recorded in Genesis. Ha! There's a loads of documentation of camel domestication from the ancient world, even many centuries prior to the time of Abraham!

* An Excerpt from Dr. Kennedy's Paper: The godless are willing to twist every fact in their attempt to discredit the Bible. To make their indefensible claim that the Bible is wrong to describe the domestication of camels in the time of the patriarchs, Dr. Kennedy points out that:

...archaeological and textual evidence must be either ignored or explained away. Bones, hairs, wall paintings, models, inscriptions, seals, documents, statues, and stelae from numerous archaeological sites all suggest the camel in use as a domestic animal in the ancient Near East as early as the 3rd millennium BC, and certainly by the Middle Bronze Age.

* Dr. Kennedy's Credentials: Hey, what an honor it is for Real Science Radio to have this guy on our program! (Of course we felt the same in November when RSR interviewed the world's most popular authority on Jericho, Dr. Bryan Wood, also of ABR, to celebrate the many discoveries of secular archaeologists that confirm important details in Joshua's account of ancient Jericho and its destruction. Thus the ruins of perhaps the world's greatest oldest city powerfully corroborate one of the most amazing accounts in the Bible.) Regarding Dr. Kennedy, his street creds include:
- MA in Near Eastern Archaeology, University of Toronto.
- MA in Biblical Archaeology, University of South Africa.
- PhD in Literature and Philosophy, Biblical Archaeology, University of South Africa.
- Associate of the Discovery Institute, Seattle, Washington (occasional)
- Mount Zion excavations, Jerusalem. Supervisor, 2013.
- Suba (Cave of John the Baptist), Ein Kerem, Israel, Supervisor. 2011.
- Khirbet el-Maqatir Excavations, West Bank, Supervisor, 2009, 2011.
- Hazor Excavations, Hazor, Israel, Excavator, 2005, 2007, 2010.
- City of David Excavations, Jerusalem, Israel Antiquities Authority, Excavator. 2010.
- Temple Mount Sifting Project, Jerusalem, Sifter and Artifact Examiner, 2008, 2010.
- Mammoth Site, La Mirada, California. Supervisor, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013.
- Languages: Hebrew, Greek, Egyptian Akkadian (Old Babylonian), French, and limited Russian, German, and Latin.
- Research Specialities include Archaeological Demography; Bronze and Iron Age Levant; New Kingdom Egypt; Roman Period Mediterranean; Archaeology and Ancient Texts; Artifact Photography; Comparative Archaeology. Database of 80 museums and collections including: the British Museum, the Louvre, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the Israel Museum, the Rockefeller Museum, the Cairo Museum, and the Istanbul Archaeology Museums.

Phew. Fred and Bob were worn out just reading about Dr. Kennedy's accomplishments!

* The Bible Gets Easier to Understand: Apparent contradictions plague many Bible students. Therefore in his life's work, The Plot, Bob Enyart set out to demonstrate how hundreds of such contradictions disappear when the reader applies the big picture of the Bible to its details. Tunnel vision focuses so narrowly on a problem that the solution often lies just out of view. As the pastor of Denver Bible Church, Bob Enyart teaches Christians how to use the whole counsel of God to understand the plot of the Bible and solve biblical mysteries. As with all of our BEL resources, The Plot comes with a 30-day money-back guarantee! And as we become proficient in the big picture, that is, the overview of the story of the Bible, then countless details, including as one small example, about the cities of refuge, become increasingly clear!

Today's Resource: Get both volumes, I & II, of Bob Enyart's verse-by-verse study of The Book of Joshua, for a discounted price. And you can enjoy these or any of Bob's studies, made available by book title or by topic, or you can subscribe or donate online or by calling 1-800-8Enyart (303-463-7789).

 

[Lordkalvan]

I wonder how these dates were authenticated? Does anyone know?

 

[Bob Enyart]

I wonder how these dates were authenticated? Does anyone know?

Hello Lk. As the OP says, there's loads of documentation of camel domestication from the ancient world, even many centuries prior to the time of Abraham! Just click that link and you'll find scores of references to specific (many peer-reviewed) archaeological papers and books with all the dating evidence you'd ever want to read of the many dig sites.

National Geographic apparently didn't learn enough from their Archaeoraptor fraud fiasco, and still is willing to recklessly publish something that seems to support their primary bias, which is that there is no creator God.

- Bob Enyart
rsr.org

 

[Jukia]

their primary bias, which is that there is no creator God.

- Bob Enyart
rsr.org

Who knew that National Geo's primary bias was that, I thought it was investigating the natural world. But I guess you have the inside track to National Geo.

 

[Stripe]

Investigating the natural world is not a bias.

 

[Lordkalvan]

Hello Lk. As the OP says, there's loads of documentation of camel domestication from the ancient world, even many centuries prior to the time of Abraham! Just click that link and you'll find scores of references to specific (many peer-reviewed) archaeological papers and books with all the dating evidence you'd ever want to read of the many dig sites.

National Geographic apparently didn't learn enough from their Archaeoraptor fraud fiasco, and still is willing to recklessly publish something that seems to support their primary bias, which is that there is no creator God.

- Bob Enyart
rsr.org

I don't have a problem with the antiquity of camel domestication. I was more interested in how the dates were determined. It looks if standard archaeological techniques were used: C14, AMS, stratigraphic dating, etc. Is this a fair summary?

An editorial error in deciding to publish claims about an already controversial and suspect fossil 15 years ago is not evidence that everything NG publishes is immediately suspect. I understand that the debate over the extent of camel domestication in the ANE is what exercises scholars most. As I say, I have no problems with an early date myself.

 

[Stripe]

Evolutionists are allergic to reading.

 

[Lordkalvan]

Evolutionists are allergic to reading.

Are you addressing me?

The linked paper makes only two mentions at all of anything approaching dating protocols, in the phrase 'stratigraphic context'. Most of the citations are not online and so how the cited dates were arrived at is unclear. If standard archaeological methods were used, these would include C14, AMS, thermoluminescence and stratigraphic dating. Do you have any further information to shed light on this?

 

[Bob Enyart]

Lk, those dozens of sources undoubtedly used the typical range of dating methods, as you suggested.

An editorial error in deciding to publish claims about an already controversial and suspect fossil 15 years ago is not evidence that everything NG publishes is immediately suspect.

Agreed. Certainly. It's just what they publish recklessly that is overtly false that evidently is motivated by bias.

For Jukia, when someone says that the Sun is further away from the Earth than is the moon, folks don't talk about that person's bias. As I discussed with Zakath years ago, bias as most commonly used, does not refer to a belief as much as too an erroneous belief or perspective that leads one to incorrect conclusions.

Posted from the TOL App!

 

[Jukia]

For Jukia, when someone says that the Sun is further away from the Earth than is the moon, folks don't talk about that person's bias. As I discussed with Zakath years ago, bias as most commonly used, does not refer to a belief as much as too an erroneous belief or perspective that leads one to incorrect conclusions.

Posted from the TOL App!

Ah, thanks, your bias is substantial given your articulated erroneous beliefs and consistent incorrect conclusions. You should work on that.

 

[Lordkalvan]

Lk, those dozens of sources undoubtedly used the typical range of dating methods, as you suggested.

So pretty much all those sorts of dating methods that show a global flood did not occur around 4500 years ago and that Earth is older than 6000 years?

Agreed. Certainly. It's just what they publish recklessly that is overtly false that evidently is motivated by bias.

Well, if all we have in 15 years is two examples, that's not very much evidence of systematic bias.

 

[Stripe]

So pretty much all those sorts of dating methods that show a global flood did not occur around 4500 years ago and that Earth is older than 6000 years?

Evolutionists are solely determined to talk about anything but the topic at hand.

Well, if all we have in 15 years is two examples, that's not very much evidence of systematic bias.

Evolutionists love to pretend that what they have been showed is all that exists.

 

[Lordkalvan]

Evolutionists are solely determined to talk about anything but the topic at hand.

Stripe has failed to pay attention to those posts where I stated I have no problem with the antiquity of camels and that my greater interest was in how that antiquity was established.

Evolutionists love to pretend that what they have been showed is all that exists.

Feel free to provide other references to NG articles published 'recklessly that [are] overtly false' and 'evidently...motivated by bias' so that we can discuss them. Then there will be no need for me to 'pretend' anything, will there?

 

[Stripe]

Stripe has failed to pay attention to those posts where I stated I have no problem with the antiquity of camels and that my greater interest was in how that antiquity was established.

Right. You're not interested in the topic and are posting nonetheless. :idunno:

Feel free to provide other references to NG articles published 'recklessly that [are] overtly false' and 'evidently...motivated by bias' so that we can discuss them. Then there will be no need for me to 'pretend' anything, will there?

:darwinsm:

How about you nominate any recent issue you like. If the articles in it do not have any blatant evolutionary bias, I will concede your point.

 

[Lordkalvan]

Right. You're not interested in the topic and are posting nonetheless. :idunno:

Wrong, I am interested in the topic and am posting relevant to that interest.

:darwinsm:

:dead:

How about you nominate any recent issue you like. If the articles in it do not have any blatant evolutionary bias, I will concede your point.

What's the matter? Can't find any yourself that have been published 'recklessly that [are] overtly false' and 'evidently...motivated by bias'? Need to shift the goalposts? Have to call on others to do your work for you?

I nominate the October 2006 Original English Edition issue. Have at it.

 

[Stripe]

I nominate the October 2006 Original English Edition issue. Have at it.

:up:

I will see if I can find a copy.

 

[Stripe]

October 2006
Hallowed Ground -- The world needs parks. Whether they're slivers of green in a crowded city or 20,000 square miles of designated wilderness.
National Parks -- Today there are almost 400 units in the parks system, and nearly 300 million Americans alive to enjoy them.
Urban Downtime -- Why would any city go to the bother and expense of growing green space in an urban environment?
Pollution Within -- Many of the compounds absorbed by the body stay there for years–and fears about their health effects are growing.
Pyramid of Death -- At the Pyramid of the Moon in central Mexico, humans and animals were buried alive.
Visions of Earth -- Each month, National Geographic features breathtaking photographs in Visions of Earth.
Flashback -- Look back at the Autochrome photo essays of Gervais Courtellemont that appeared in National Geographic.

 

[Lordkalvan]

Is this a list of the articles? I see nine:
Hurricane Aftermath -- Last year's Gulf Coast hurricanes upended landscapes and lives. Much will be rebuilt, but much is gone forever.
Super Storms -- Scientists are urgently trying to forecast the next killer hurricanes.
Ghost World Guardian -- For 50 years rancher Waldo Wilcox guarded a Utah canyon, but now the secret's out.
Smoky Mountain -- The quiet splendor and patchwork history of the popular national park offers lessons.
A Geographic Life -- Tom J. Abercrombie lived the exotic adventures that people dream of.
Where Currents Collide -- In wild tides surging through the straits of Vancouver Island, marine life grows.
Army Ants -- Army ants overwhelm their prey through their sheer force of numbers.
Visions of Earth -- Each month, National Geographic features breathtaking photographs in Visions of Earth.
Flashback -- In 1938 an obscure cyclone hit the U.S. Northeast coast.

No. You appear to have cited the articles from the August 2006 edition, not the October one.

 

[Stripe]

No. You appear to have cited the articles from the August 2006 edition, not the October one.

Counting was never much of a gift.

 

[Stripe]

That we should find nature rejuvenating is hardly surprising. After all, our tribe arose not in cinderbelt but in wild forests and grasslands. Our ears are made not for the stinging scream of sirens but for the sly scratch of a predator's paws and the whistle of wind that warns of impending weather. Our eyes evolved to tease apart not the monotonous grays of cityscapes but the subtle gold, olive, and burgundy hues that signaled ripe fruit and tender leaves, and our brains to reward our sensory efforts with feelings of deep pleasure.

Kuo speculates that over the course of human evolution, there was selection for this response to the natural world. Our ancestors who found nature effortlessly engaging had an advantage. "They were the ones more likely to know where the berries could be found and where the critters hung out," she says. "When push came to shove in difficult environmental conditions, they were better able to survive."

-- source​