Creation News and Bob's Brown Palace Debate
This is the show from Friday July 18th, 2014
Summary:
* RSR on Science News & Bob's Important Debate: Real Science Radio hosts Bob Enyart and Fred Williams start off having fun reporting on the latest science news from Creation magazine and then get sidetracked playing a funny clip of audio from theoretical physicist (emphasis on the theoretical) Lawrence Krauss. Well, that reminds Fred of Bob's debate from last week with theologian James White at Denver's historic Brown Palace hotel and then the startling debate aftermath. A beloved theologian, R.C. Sproul Jr. (and son of his namesake theologian father) and Dr. James White himself, in damage control and contradiction to admissions made repeatedly in the debate, both men have now denied, tragically, God the Son's humanity. For the context, you may want to first listen to the debate embedded here, and then read the post-debate comments from White and Sproul below...
* BEL Broadcasting James White's Open Theism Debate: By broadcasting last week's open theism debate between Dr. James White and Pastor Bob Enyart, that event before a live audience of 150 people at Denver's Brown Palace hotel is now being heard by a few thousand people tuning in to America's most powerful Christian radio station, Colorado's 50,000-watt AM 670 KLTT. The nationwide audience listening via our own KGOV.com should bring the listenership to more than 10,000 people. Adding to those efforts at dissemination, with the entire debate available right now at opentheism.org, and with the soon-to-be-released paperback and Kindle and e-book versions to be sold at Amazon.com and elsewhere, we are praying that more than 100,000 people will be edified by this historic event. Please pray!
* James White & R.C. Sproul Jr. Deny God the Son's Humanity: As reported on the official debate webpage, opentheism.org/jameswhite, the settled view proponent R.C. Sproul, Jr. commented via the debate organizer's Facebook page, and then James White commented via email to the organizer, OpenTheism.org's Will Duffy. Here is the context of their comments. The most influential theologians, Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, and Calvin, never explained how one could possibly maintain the doctrines of divine timelessness and utter immutability in the light of the Incarnation. For decades we have heard Denver-area Calvinists, when asked about the Incarnation, struggle to answer the simplest challenges to their doctrines without making it sound like they believed in a fourth person of the Trinity. In the debate, in his first question of the cross-examination, Bob Enyart asked James White, "When God the Son went from one nature (divine) to two natures (divine and human), was that a change?" James White answered: "No." On July 10th, James White stood in solidarity with the shocking comments posted the day before, on the debate organizer's Facebook, comments written by loved theologian R.C. Sproul Jr., who wrote:
R.C. SPOUL JR. R.C. Sproul Jr. God the Son didn't go from one nature to two. God the Son didn't have a human nature. Jesus did.
Will Duffy R.C. Sproul Jr., thanks for your comment. I've noticed for years that theologians have an extremely hard time regarding the Incarnation. That is why theologians for centuries have not dealt with it [regarding immutability and timelessness], including Augustine, Boethius, Aquinas, Luther and Calvin.
Traditional Christianity believes that God the Son still has a human nature in the eternal state. (See the Creed of Chalcedon.) Do you agree that God the Son even now has two natures for all of eternity?
R.C. Sproul Jr. God the Son does not now nor has He ever had two natures. Jesus, however, has two natures in one person. That's my point. To say that "God the Son has a human nature" is word salad, making no more sense than saying "Jesus the man has a divine nature."
Will Duffy R.C. Sproul Jr., that's interesting. I'll have to think about what you're saying. I've never heard this from any theologian. Even James White agreed last night that God the Son has two natures in what theologians call the "hypostatic union," which originated at Chalcedon. Here's a small quote from the creed itself:
"...acknowledged in Two Natures unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference of the Natures being in no way removed because of the Union, but rather the properties of each Nature being preserved, and (both) concurring into One Person and One Hypostasis..."
JAMES WHITE ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: James White droakley@gmail.com
Date: Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 4:02 PM
Subject: Michael Sugar
To: "Will Duffy godsfreewill@gmail.com" yesyouneedjesus@gmail.com
"God the Son does not have two natures. I did not 'admit' that He did/does/will etc. Jesus of Nazareth was one Person with two natures."
SCRIPTURE Rom. 8:3 God sent “His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh”
1 Tim. 3:16 “God was manifested in the flesh…”
John 1:1, 14 “…the Word was God… And the Word became flesh…”
Heb. 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Settled view theologians use this verse to assert immutability, but if that were true then Jesus would have had two natures through eternity past. Instead, this verse means that God the Son, who is and who was and who is to come, has always been righteous and that we can forever trust His goodness and love.
* Bob Enyart Responds: We have feared for years that when reformed Christians, and possibly other Settled Viewers, realize that the Incarnation is incompatible with immutability and divine timelessness, that they will compromise on the Incarnation rather than even question their commitment to the extra-biblical Platonic doctrines of timelessness and utter immutability. We wish that the best example we would ever have of that fear coming true would be from a young believer whom no one had ever heard of. It grieves us to read these startling new claims from R.C. Sproul Jr. and James White. Have either of these men ever uttered such things before? Is it part of their cherished church history, tradition, creeds, or confessions, that God the Son never took upon Himself a human nature? Popular theologians have been given a pass, a long, long pass, never being asked publically to reconcile immutability with the Incarnation. After reading these comments from Sproul and White, our whole team is devastated.
From our article at kgov.com/time:
When Reading in the Greek, We See that God Is:
- timeless,
- in an eternal now,
- not was, nor will be, but only is,
- has no past
- has no future.
Of course NOT ONE of these phrases is in the Bible. They're from Plato. And they're uncritically repeated by the Christian authors of typical systematic theology textbooks, and therefore, taught to young ministers in seminary.
In this section heading above, the word Greek does not refer, as many would assume, to the text of the New Testament that was originally written in Greek. Rather, it was used to refer to pagan Greek philosophy, which insisted that God exists outside of time. In contrast, the Hebrew and Greek terms in the Bibleabout God and time are TOTALLY different and refer not to timelessness but to unending duration. The phrases in the Scriptures all speak of God existing through unending time and an everlasting duration. The above timelessness terms are foreign to the reader of God's Word, whereas the Bible's many terms, as listed below, are all so very familiar from our reading of Scripture.
When Reading Your Bible, We See that God:
is - and was - and is to come - Whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting - Forever and ever -
The Ancient of Days - From before the ages of the ages - From ancient times - the everlasting God -
He continues forever - From of old - Remains forever - Immortal - The Lord shall endure forever -
Who lives forever - God’s years - manifest in His own time - Everlasting Father - Alive forevermore -
Always lives - Forever - Continually - God’s years never end - From everlasting to everlasting -
From that time forward, even forever - And of His kingdom there will be no end.
more...
* Bible Study Video Downloads: While Bob Enyart Live has produced verse by verse audio studies of most of the books of the Bible, more recently we have begun offering our studies via downloads in MP4 High Definition video. The Gospel of Mark, 2 Timothy, 2 Corinthians, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, Daniel and Malachi.
This is the show from Friday July 18th, 2014
Summary:
* RSR on Science News & Bob's Important Debate: Real Science Radio hosts Bob Enyart and Fred Williams start off having fun reporting on the latest science news from Creation magazine and then get sidetracked playing a funny clip of audio from theoretical physicist (emphasis on the theoretical) Lawrence Krauss. Well, that reminds Fred of Bob's debate from last week with theologian James White at Denver's historic Brown Palace hotel and then the startling debate aftermath. A beloved theologian, R.C. Sproul Jr. (and son of his namesake theologian father) and Dr. James White himself, in damage control and contradiction to admissions made repeatedly in the debate, both men have now denied, tragically, God the Son's humanity. For the context, you may want to first listen to the debate embedded here, and then read the post-debate comments from White and Sproul below...
* BEL Broadcasting James White's Open Theism Debate: By broadcasting last week's open theism debate between Dr. James White and Pastor Bob Enyart, that event before a live audience of 150 people at Denver's Brown Palace hotel is now being heard by a few thousand people tuning in to America's most powerful Christian radio station, Colorado's 50,000-watt AM 670 KLTT. The nationwide audience listening via our own KGOV.com should bring the listenership to more than 10,000 people. Adding to those efforts at dissemination, with the entire debate available right now at opentheism.org, and with the soon-to-be-released paperback and Kindle and e-book versions to be sold at Amazon.com and elsewhere, we are praying that more than 100,000 people will be edified by this historic event. Please pray!
* James White & R.C. Sproul Jr. Deny God the Son's Humanity: As reported on the official debate webpage, opentheism.org/jameswhite, the settled view proponent R.C. Sproul, Jr. commented via the debate organizer's Facebook page, and then James White commented via email to the organizer, OpenTheism.org's Will Duffy. Here is the context of their comments. The most influential theologians, Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, and Calvin, never explained how one could possibly maintain the doctrines of divine timelessness and utter immutability in the light of the Incarnation. For decades we have heard Denver-area Calvinists, when asked about the Incarnation, struggle to answer the simplest challenges to their doctrines without making it sound like they believed in a fourth person of the Trinity. In the debate, in his first question of the cross-examination, Bob Enyart asked James White, "When God the Son went from one nature (divine) to two natures (divine and human), was that a change?" James White answered: "No." On July 10th, James White stood in solidarity with the shocking comments posted the day before, on the debate organizer's Facebook, comments written by loved theologian R.C. Sproul Jr., who wrote:
R.C. SPOUL JR. R.C. Sproul Jr. God the Son didn't go from one nature to two. God the Son didn't have a human nature. Jesus did.
Will Duffy R.C. Sproul Jr., thanks for your comment. I've noticed for years that theologians have an extremely hard time regarding the Incarnation. That is why theologians for centuries have not dealt with it [regarding immutability and timelessness], including Augustine, Boethius, Aquinas, Luther and Calvin.
Traditional Christianity believes that God the Son still has a human nature in the eternal state. (See the Creed of Chalcedon.) Do you agree that God the Son even now has two natures for all of eternity?
R.C. Sproul Jr. God the Son does not now nor has He ever had two natures. Jesus, however, has two natures in one person. That's my point. To say that "God the Son has a human nature" is word salad, making no more sense than saying "Jesus the man has a divine nature."
Will Duffy R.C. Sproul Jr., that's interesting. I'll have to think about what you're saying. I've never heard this from any theologian. Even James White agreed last night that God the Son has two natures in what theologians call the "hypostatic union," which originated at Chalcedon. Here's a small quote from the creed itself:
"...acknowledged in Two Natures unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference of the Natures being in no way removed because of the Union, but rather the properties of each Nature being preserved, and (both) concurring into One Person and One Hypostasis..."
JAMES WHITE ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: James White droakley@gmail.com
Date: Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 4:02 PM
Subject: Michael Sugar
To: "Will Duffy godsfreewill@gmail.com" yesyouneedjesus@gmail.com
"God the Son does not have two natures. I did not 'admit' that He did/does/will etc. Jesus of Nazareth was one Person with two natures."
SCRIPTURE Rom. 8:3 God sent “His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh”
1 Tim. 3:16 “God was manifested in the flesh…”
John 1:1, 14 “…the Word was God… And the Word became flesh…”
Heb. 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Settled view theologians use this verse to assert immutability, but if that were true then Jesus would have had two natures through eternity past. Instead, this verse means that God the Son, who is and who was and who is to come, has always been righteous and that we can forever trust His goodness and love.
* Bob Enyart Responds: We have feared for years that when reformed Christians, and possibly other Settled Viewers, realize that the Incarnation is incompatible with immutability and divine timelessness, that they will compromise on the Incarnation rather than even question their commitment to the extra-biblical Platonic doctrines of timelessness and utter immutability. We wish that the best example we would ever have of that fear coming true would be from a young believer whom no one had ever heard of. It grieves us to read these startling new claims from R.C. Sproul Jr. and James White. Have either of these men ever uttered such things before? Is it part of their cherished church history, tradition, creeds, or confessions, that God the Son never took upon Himself a human nature? Popular theologians have been given a pass, a long, long pass, never being asked publically to reconcile immutability with the Incarnation. After reading these comments from Sproul and White, our whole team is devastated.
From our article at kgov.com/time:
When Reading in the Greek, We See that God Is:
- timeless,
- in an eternal now,
- not was, nor will be, but only is,
- has no past
- has no future.
Of course NOT ONE of these phrases is in the Bible. They're from Plato. And they're uncritically repeated by the Christian authors of typical systematic theology textbooks, and therefore, taught to young ministers in seminary.
In this section heading above, the word Greek does not refer, as many would assume, to the text of the New Testament that was originally written in Greek. Rather, it was used to refer to pagan Greek philosophy, which insisted that God exists outside of time. In contrast, the Hebrew and Greek terms in the Bibleabout God and time are TOTALLY different and refer not to timelessness but to unending duration. The phrases in the Scriptures all speak of God existing through unending time and an everlasting duration. The above timelessness terms are foreign to the reader of God's Word, whereas the Bible's many terms, as listed below, are all so very familiar from our reading of Scripture.
When Reading Your Bible, We See that God:
is - and was - and is to come - Whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting - Forever and ever -
The Ancient of Days - From before the ages of the ages - From ancient times - the everlasting God -
He continues forever - From of old - Remains forever - Immortal - The Lord shall endure forever -
Who lives forever - God’s years - manifest in His own time - Everlasting Father - Alive forevermore -
Always lives - Forever - Continually - God’s years never end - From everlasting to everlasting -
From that time forward, even forever - And of His kingdom there will be no end.
more...
* Bible Study Video Downloads: While Bob Enyart Live has produced verse by verse audio studies of most of the books of the Bible, more recently we have begun offering our studies via downloads in MP4 High Definition video. The Gospel of Mark, 2 Timothy, 2 Corinthians, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, Daniel and Malachi.
