Real Science Friday: CRSQ's The Origin of Fish by Jerry Bergman

[Jefferson]

CRSQ's The Origin of Fish by Jerry Bergman

This is the show from Friday August 5th, 2011.

SUMMARY:



* 80% of Known Fossils are Marine Animals: Real Science Friday co-host Bob Enyart discusses the current Creation Research Society Quarterly paper, The Search for Evidence Concerning the Origin of Fish, by RSF friend Dr. Jerry Bergman. The photo on the right of a salamander, circulated online by uneducated evolutionists claiming that it's a fish with legs, depicts an Axolotl, which is not a fish but, like some other amphibians, lives permanently in its larval form.

* Trouble for Fish Evolution: With a million fish and marine fossils in museum collections alone, many of which are pristine, there is a COMPLETE lack of fossil evidence of the evolution of vertebrates from non-vertebrates, and also, generally, a widely-admitted (by evolutionists) lack of evidence of evolution from alleged non-fish ancestors, and a tremendous lack of evidence, despite the extensive (and allegedly ancient) worldwide record of fish fossils.



* The Fish Wars RSF Flashback: Atheists and evolutionists widely desecrate the Christian fish symbol by putting legs on it to symbolize evolution. Dr. Thomas Lessl of the University of Georgia researched the motivations and was told, "I did it to annoy the Christian right wing, since they are fond of putting the fish/Christ symbols on their cars..." and "Creationists are [expletive]... Humans are no better than chickens [BE: How does he know, has he tasted them?]... earthworms... algae or infectious salmonella..." [BE: Britain’s Prince Philip of the Worldwide Fund for Nature even wishes to be an infectious germ, saying that he would like to be reincarnated as a "killer virus to lower human population levels." Prince HIVlip, perhaps?] Dr. Lessl commented, "By inserting Darwin's name in the place of the fish icon usually reserved for Christ, the icthus symbol is ritually profaned."

Christians of course have responded with a larger Jesus fish eating the Darwin fish. And BEL adds to the mix an alien fish standing on end bearing Dawkins' name to illustrate the atheist's claim in the documentary Expelled that microbiology may provide evidence that life on earth may be the result of intelligent design from somewhere out there in the universe! Richard Dawkins added that such an alien species would most likely have evolved by some Darwinian mechanism. He seemed unaware, as atheists tend to be, that this claim merely punts the issue of origins, since the origin of life on an another planet would face the same dilemma as life arising on earth. Yet atheists commonly put hope in aliens with no logical defense of their blind faith.

Richard Dawkins:

"Well, [the origin of life on earth] could have come about in this way: The evidence may show, as we look at the complexity, as we look at the genetic mechanisms, that might be evidence that a long time ago, far far away in another galaxy, that there was a civilization that evolved by Darwinian means. And that civilization designed life and seeded it on our earth." -Dawkins, in Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

Today’s Resource: Getting the BEL Science Pack, learn and have a great time, support Bob Enyart Live, and save a lot of money, all at the same time! You can consider our BEL Science Pack and enjoy:

- Dr. Guillermo Gonzalez’ Privileged Planet (clip)
- Illustra Media’s Unlocking the Mystery of Life (clip)
- Walt Brown’s In the Beginning
- Bob Enyart’s Age of the Earth Debate between him and a geo-physicist, and
- Bob's Genesis: Creation verse-by-verse Bible Study!
And have you browsed through the entire Science Department in our KGOV Store? Check out especially Bob’s interviews with a great scientist in Walt Brown Week! You’ll also love Bob's debate about Junk DNA with famous evolutionist Dr. Eugenie Scott, and the superb kids' radio programming, Jonathan Park: The Adventure Begins! And Bob strongly recommends that you subscribe to CMI’s tremendous Creation magazine and Ken Ham's Answers magazine! Or to order any of our BEL and 3rd-party resources, just call us at 1-800-8Enyart.

 

[Frayed Knot]

Correction to Bob: I've listened to the first few minutes of the episode so far, and Bob mentioned that the coelacanth was once thought to have limbs, then we found live ones and saw that it didn't. That's not true - no one ever thought that the coelacanth had limbs - we have lots of fossils showing its lobe fins. It is true, however, that lobe-finned fish have bones that correspond very closely to the limbs of tetrapods (including all the land animals).

Also, Bob recalled how he and a chiropractor were talking about how it would be impossible for the spinal column to evolve, because no creature could live with a partially-evolved spinal column. But the coelacanth proves that's wrong - it has a notochord, a very primitive sort-of backbone. It's clearly related to the vertebrates' backbone, but very minimal.

 

[The Barbarian]

Trouble for Fish Evolution: With a million fish and marine fossils in museum collections alone, many of which are pristine, there is a COMPLETE lack of fossil evidence of the evolution of vertebrates from non-vertebrates,

Hmmm...

Hagfish are chordates, lacking vertebrae, (hence not vertebrates). But they have a notochord similar to the ones found in some vertebrates, and they have a primitive vertebrate skull, made of cartilage.

The larva of ascidians are free-swimming organisms, with a notochord, very similar to the larvae of echinoderms, the closest relative to chordates, both phyla being deuterostomes.

Lampreys are very similar to hagfish, but do have a complete skull, and very primitive vertebrae. They share the single dorsal nostril of early chordates and lack of fins and jaws, but one is evolved enough to be considered a vertebrate, and one is not.

Thanks for bringing that up, guys.

and also, generally, a widely-admitted (by evolutionists) lack of evidence of evolution from alleged non-fish ancestors, and a tremendous lack of evidence, despite the extensive (and allegedly ancient) worldwide record of fish fossils.

Well, the fossil evidence, is pretty good, too. From extremely primitive chordates like Amphioxus (still living) and Pikaea (primitive chordate from the Burgess Shale), to highly evolved chordates like hagfish, to very primitive vertebrates like lampreys, there's a rather nicely graded series of transitionals.

 

[Granite]

Is Bob aware that chiropractry is widely considered a useless quack pseudo-science?

 

[The Barbarian]

Is Bob aware that chiropractry is widely considered a useless quack pseudo-science?

It's an odd group. Some of them claim to be able to cure tuberculosis and cancer. Most aren't like that, and they can do some good for chronic pain and injuries.

Some MDs use them for therapy. But I'm a bit leery of them, just the same.

 

[Frayed Knot]

Yes, chiros are a mixed bag. Some of them are the progressive type who practice manipulation as a form of physical therapy, and the data we have says that these chiros are about as effective as physical therapists.

Then there are the others. Chiropractic is a field whose core principles are not just false, they're anti-scientific. Many chiros also promote all kinds of quackery, such as homeopathy, reiki, applied kenesiology, and acupuncture.

I know a lady whose young daughter (two or three years) was having some allergy-like problems, so her chiropractor offered to diagnose her allergy. Here's how it worked: the girl sat on her mom's lap, then the chiro said the name of a kind of food, then tugged on the mom's arm. When he said the word "chicken" and tugged on the mom's arm, he sensed that her arm was more resistant to his tug, so he concluded that the little girl was allergic to chicken. I kid you not.

This technique is something called "applied kenesiology." It's typical of the kind of quackery you'll find with the shallow end of the chiropractic pool. But the fundamental problem here is that of epistemology - how do you know what you think you know? If you are accepting of conclusions that aren't based on evidence, just because they "feel right" to you, and you don't realize the ways that our minds can jump to false conclusions, then you're susceptible to this problem. The whole idea behind the scientific method is to avoid those pitfalls.

Chiropractic is a field who has approached medicine from a nonscientific methodology. Fortunately for some of them, their techniques have applicability to some medical problems (but not all techniques and just a few problems). Contrast this with the field of Osteopathy, which started out in a similar way - treating with muscular/skeletal manipulation - but the field of osteopathy was open to changing their views with data, and now DO's are pretty much indistinguishable from a general practice MD.

 

[Jukia]

But the fundamental problem here is that of epistemology - how do you know what you think you know? If you are accepting of conclusions that aren't based on evidence, just because they "feel right" to you, and you don't realize the ways that our minds can jump to false conclusions, then you're susceptible to this problem. The whole idea behind the scientific method is to avoid those pitfalls.

Or accepting conclusions just because they fit with your theological beliefs.

 

[Alate_One]

Correction to Bob: I've listened to the first few minutes of the episode so far, and Bob mentioned that the coelacanth was once thought to have limbs, then we found live ones and saw that it didn't. That's not true - no one ever thought that the coelacanth had limbs - we have lots of fossils showing its lobe fins. It is true, however, that lobe-finned fish have bones that correspond very closely to the limbs of tetrapods (including all the land animals)

You mean land vertebrates

Bob should be reminded that the modern coelocanth is just one living representative of an entire order of fish.

These are all coelocanths

Here's the internal anatomy of the modern coelocanth

Here are various transitional tetrapod/lobe finned fish limbs

This one includes some living lobe finned fish including coelocanth and australian lungfish.