RevTestament
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What say you? Have at it -
scriptural evidences please.
scriptural evidences please.
What say you? Have at it -
scriptural evidences please.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o7HKqvuO1U | |
No, it cannot include gentiles, it says expressly that its 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.
Revelation 7:4
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were 1sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
Pretty clear what it says there.
A question is what is the mission or purpose of the 144,000? It is true that some knowledge on this question is implied in Revelation 14: 1-5 and in Revelation 7: 1-8. Revelation 7: 3 says "...Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees. till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."
The same Greek word, sphragizo, sealed, is used in II Corinthians 21-22, "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22. Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."
Sphragizo is also used in Ephesians 1: 22, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise."
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4: 30
The 144,000 are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and with an anointing, since I Corinthians 1: 21-22 says those sealed with the Holy Spirit also were anointed by Christ. But sealed and anointed for what mission?
LDS Christians understand the letter of the law being the letter of the Torah which we do not follow. Instead we do follow the spirit of the law. That is what Jesus came to teach, and why Jesus stressed that the Father is a Spirit like us - therefore we can relate to Him on a spiritual level. He doesn't care for rote animal sacrifice at all. Those things were meant to teach a repentant heart.I am not sure to what extent the Mormons follow a literalist interpretation of Scripture, as do the dispensationalists. A "letter" type of Bible interpretation goes along with the literalist mind set.
Paul uses "letter" several times in Romans and in II Corinthians. In Romans 2: 29 he says "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly: and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter..."
In Romans 7: 6 he says "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held: that we should serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."
In II Corinthians 3: 6 Paul explains more of what he means in saying "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit given life."
Here is Paul again talking about spiritual life and contrasting it to the letter which kills spiritual life.
I have to interject here as it appears you don't really understand the LDS viewpoint. LDS Christians do not claim to be descendants of the Lamanites. We believe there are American Indians who are descendants of Manasseh, Joseph's son, and were called Lamanites after Laman, one of the early settlers. We also believe Paul that the Gentiles can be grafted into the house of Israel. see Jacob 5.On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic...Book_of_Mormon
They say that "The understanding of Joseph Smith, and,
traditionally, of Mormons in general, is that the Book of Mormon
indicates that the Lamanites, descended from Lehi, are a "remnant of
the House of Israel"
The Mormons have claimed to be descendants of the Lamanites. They too would cling to the literalist belief that Israel in scripture cannot refer
to anyone other than the physical descendants from Abraham. Therefore, the 144,000 in Revelation 7 must be, for them also, literal, physical Jews of the flesh.
While I agree that even the wild branches can be grafted into the house of Israel, that doesn't mean that the 144,000 refer to all the followers, and I would have to disagree. I also agree that Revelation uses highly symbolic and metaphorical language. If you are inferring that all the followers are saved to a literal one big "saved room" of the Father, I have to disagree with that too. Jesus said in my Father's house are many rooms, I go to prepare a place for you.The 144,000 are in Revelation 7: 4, "...and there were sealed a hundred and forty four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."
I remember being on a Christian Yahoo group in about 2010 when some in the group thought that the 144,000 from all the tribes of Old Covenant Israel in Revelation 7 meant that under the New Covenant we are somehow metaphorically in one of the 12 tribes, and some of the people in the group were speculating about which tribe they might belong to. The 144,000 out of the 12 tribes is not literal, but speculating on which tribe you might belong to is not the way to gain an understanding of this metaphor. The Lord may reveal this to some at a time.
But remember what Paul says in II Corinthians 3: 6, "for the letter killeth, but the spirit given life." The Spirit gives spiritual life and for the 144,000 the literalist viewpoint kills spiritual life.
In Romans 2: 29, "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly: and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter..." means that anyone regardless of his physical DNA (Romans 10: 12, Galatians 3: 28) whose circumcision is of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter (literally, physically) is now a Jew, or a member of Israel.
Those records were destroyed in 70 AD.
So if this wasn't fulfilled then, any one of us ole white boys could fall in amongst them 144,000.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lN8G9Wsnb6s | |
Thanks for your input. Let me say tho how I see things. I don't believe the woman in Rev 12 is Jerusalem. The woman represents the church which is forced into the wilderness during a 1260 yr apostasy. She was pained to be delivered of the "man-child" because of the persecutions the early church suffered.The woman in Revelation 12 would be "Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all..." Galatians 4: 26
This has already been fulfilled and represents the followers who were killed in crusades and by being burnt at the stake in their attempts to worship God in truth.Daniel 11: 33-35 describes a group, "they that understand," who instruct many and "they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days." This is again a conflict.
I believe this pertains to a person of power in the area of the middle east who may not have come on the scene yet. To be frank I don't know who it is - perhaps a Muslim claiming to be the Mahdi or something like that.Daniel 8: 23 says when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up." But look at the transgressors, Strong's number 6586, pasha, "to break away, from just authority, i.e, trespass, apostatize, quarrel, offend, rebel...." The False Prophets like to quarrel with the word of God, claiming they have the word of God.
I read that last scripture as many will claim to be "christ" or our Savior, etc. An example would be someone like David Koresh, as you post in this next verse here:Just as there is no one super False Prophet or one man super Anti-Christ (many antichrists running around and the spirit of anti-Christ in I John 4: 3), so the king of fierce countenance who stands up when the transgressors (apostates) are come to the full is not one man. Matthew 24: 11 says "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."
Matthew 24: 5 warns that many shall come in Christ's name, saying the Lord is Christ, but they will deceive many.
OKAnd again in Matthew 24: 24 Christ warns that 'For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." This is all said before the statement of Matthew 24: 29 saying that after the tribulation the changes in the heavens will occur.
The tribulation, according to Matthew 24 is to be characterized by many false prophets. The false prophets are the human minions who carry out the telling of lies as the flood of lies coming out of the mouth of the dragon-serpent in Revelation 12.
Here we see that this does not pertain to the resurrection of Christ, but the next resurrection.Daniel 11: 33, supported by Isaiah 30:21, describes they that understand teaching many. But "...some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end..." Daniel 11: 35.
Being that Dan 11:33 has already been fulfilled, I disagree. Dan 8:23 has yet to happen.Daniel 11: 33 says "they" shall fall by the sword, by flame and by captivity. This is a battle, and the apostates who are on one side of this battle are seen in Daniel 8: 23.
I have to disagree if you are talking about the 144,000 of Rev 7, since they were sealed unto God by the end of the 6th seal. We are now in the 7th thousand years or the 7th seal. So the 144,000 do not live in the time of the great tribulation in the 7th seal. Which kind of brings me to another point. The 2 witnesses of Rev 11 in the 7th seal cannot be of the 144,000 who are sealed unto God by the end of the 6th seal in Rev 7...The 144,000 are in this battle and since Matthew 24 says the tribulation is a time of the rise of many false prophets, then the 144,000 would have been sealed and anointed for this battle before the tribulation begins or before the worst part begins. They are sealed before the tribulation and thus before the earth and heaven changes occur.
God has not lost track of anythingThose records were destroyed in 70 AD.
So if this wasn't fulfilled then, any one of us ole white boys could fall in amongst them 144,000.
God has not lost track of anything
he knows which Jew is in which tribe
Mat 10:30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
Bible prophecy says there is an opposition between a remnant faithful to the teachings of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12: 17, Revelation 14: 1-5) and the many False Prophets of Matthew 24: 11, called the transgressors in Daniel 8: 23. And Daniel 8: 23 says there will be a time when the transgressors or False Prophets will have come to the full.
Bible prophecy says there is an opposition between a remnant faithful to the teachings of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12: 17, Revelation 14: 1-5) and the many False Prophets of Matthew 24: 11, called the transgressors in Daniel 8: 23. And Daniel 8: 23 says there will be a time when the transgressors or False Prophets will have come to the full. The opposition of two positions, the dialectic, in scripture in the end times is between the False Prophets and the remnant. The Falser Prophets and their followers, the multitude, are much more numerous than are the remnant.
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In scripture on the rise of the false prophets and those under the spirit of Anti-Christ in the end time - both have been around all along - make up one position of a two-part dialectic. The other position is held by those who try to hold to the truth. Jude 1: 3 says "...ye should earnestly content for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." This is the true opposition of positions in scripture.
OK, I think we talked about that, but this thread is really about 144,000 of Rev 7 & 14.... I would like to stay on the subject.
I have an idea - let's not invalidate them. This is my thread, and you are trolling it, and trying to change the subject. If you post nonsense here again, I will report it.Lets rephrase the question, How can we invalidate the 144,000 as a description of salvation, and How can we prove this figure of 144,000 is really another description of Satan?
We'll have to rely on the language the gospel uses to invalidate the 144,000.