Questions for Christian Liberty

The Berean

Well-known member
I have some questions for you. If you could set up a nation what form of government would it have? Would this nation have any taxes? Would this nation have a police force? Would this nation have a military? Would it have private property rights for everyone?
 

Christian Liberty

Well-known member
I have some questions for you. If you could set up a nation what form of government would it have?

I don't want to set up a nation or a particular form of government. I support the non-aggression principle as the basis for law, and I am fine with any form of government that operates within the bounds of the non-aggression principle. See here: http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Principle_of_non-aggression

Would this nation have any taxes?

Taxation is a blatant violation of the non-aggression principle and a form of theft, thus, taxes are illegitimate. User fees for particular services offered, however, are not taxes.
Would this nation have a police force?

There might be one, more than one, or none. I honestly don't know, and the question is irrelevant. If professional police were needed to deal with thieves, murderers, and the like, people would hire them. The issue with modern police is twofold, they are funded by compulsory taxation, and they are required to enforce laws even when the people violating those laws are not violating the non-aggression principle. So, if there were police, they would be funded differently and have a different function than modern police.

Would this nation have a military?

I think my answer with regards to police would also fit here.
Would it have private property rights for everyone?

Yes.

Read the first part (1-1.4) of this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism
 

Zeke

Well-known member
One can read the warnings addressed by the anti-federalist about the constitution, the federalist have been proving them (anti-federalist) right ever since. Yea, that rat is still stinking up the plantation.

Easy to fool people, harder to convince them they have been fooled,
Mark Twain.
 

Christian Liberty

Well-known member
One can read the warnings addressed by the anti-federalist about the constitution, the federalist have been proving them (anti-federalist) right ever since. Yea, that rat is still stinking up the plantation.

Easy to fool people, harder to convince them they have been fooled,
Mark Twain.

Absolutely correct. I'm not sure if all the federalists knew the extent of the monster they were creating, but Hamilton certainly did.
 

The Berean

Well-known member
Great responses, CL. I'll address them later today in more detail. It's been a rather hectic day for me today.
 

The Berean

Well-known member
I don't want to set up a nation or a particular form of government. I support the non-aggression principle as the basis for law, and I am fine with any form of government that operates within the bounds of the non-aggression principle. See here: http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Principle_of_non-aggression
It seems the principle of non-aggression is "I'll leave you alone and you leave me alone."

Taxation is a blatant violation of the non-aggression principle and a form of theft, thus, taxes are illegitimate. User fees for particular services offered, however, are not taxes.
And yet for centuries cultures all over the world have had a tax system in one form or another. Why didn't these cultures conclude that taxes are "theft"? If an entire society agrees to taxation can it still be considered "theft"?

There might be one, more than one, or none. I honestly don't know, and the question is irrelevant. If professional police were needed to deal with thieves, murderers, and the like, people would hire them. The issue with modern police is twofold, they are funded by compulsory taxation, and they are required to enforce laws even when the people violating those laws are not violating the non-aggression principle. So, if there were police, they would be funded differently and have a different function than modern police.
So if someone robs me, or assaults me, or kills a family member I would have to hire a policeman to go catch the criminal? :idunno:


I think my answer with regards to police would also fit here.
Ok.
 

rocketman

Resident Rocket Surgeon
Hall of Fame
It seems the principle of non-aggression is "I'll leave you alone and you leave me alone." .

Where does this society exist? or ever existed? Fantasy land I assume...:chuckle:


And yet for centuries cultures all over the world have had a tax system in one form or another. Why didn't these cultures conclude that taxes are "theft"? If an entire society agrees to taxation can it still be considered "theft"?

More than that, without any taxation of any kind there is no authority or organized government at all, that means no infrastructure, just a group of people dwelling in the land, probably tribal with no protection from any other tribe that would take what they have. The point is governments & people supporting them go back to when people dwelled as tribes and warred over land and possessions. All CL is doing here is showing his immaturity and ignorance of history and humanity, musing how the world could be, instead of realizing how the world is, and always will be.


So if someone robs me, or assaults me, or kills a family member I would have to hire a policeman to go catch the criminal? :idunno:

So he doesn't support a organized police force for civil unrest or an organized military for national unrest but, he supports mercenary forces that will perform any violent act to the highest bidder? If you hire a policemen/mercenary, who does the mercenary answer to? What law governs his activities? thats right you have no organized government or laws, he answers to no one...better get a weapon the mercenary may be after him next.
 

musterion

Well-known member
I have to admit (again)...I find it really odd that a staunch libertarian can also be a staunch Calvinist.
 

rocketman

Resident Rocket Surgeon
Hall of Fame
I have to admit (again)...I find it really odd that a staunch libertarian can also be a staunch Calvinist.

Why? CL is an 18 year old child, no life experience to glean from, nor the knowledge to differentiate the differences of the two. Most of what he espouses makes little sense, or has been critically thought out to it's logical ends from what I have seen.
 

PureX

Well-known member
The non-aggression principle is an ethical stance which asserts that "aggression" is inherently illegitimate. "Aggression" is defined as the "initiation" of physical force against persons or property, the threat of such, or fraud upon persons or their property. In contrast to pacifism, the non-aggression principle does not preclude violent self-defense. The principle is a deontological (or rule-based) ethical stance.
I see some serious problems with this principal.

One is that it doesn't seem to recognize the reality that the concept of owning property is, itself, an act of aggression. And since this non-aggression principal allows for the aggressive defense of property, it is essentially contradicting itself.

Property is nothing more then that which I declare to be "mine", and intend to defend by force. (Sounds a lot like taxation, does't it?) Thus, the concept of owning property, when applied to reality, is by it's nature aggressive.

Secondly, how can we enforce this non-aggression policy without the use of force (which I presume you see as aggression)? Because without enforcement, the ideal cannot become a reality. It remains just an ideal. In fact, proposing it as a policy would require that we contradict it as an ideal.

And finally, how does this ideal account for innate human aggressiveness and competitiveness? We humans would have to be something other than what we are, to be able or even willing to employ such an ideal. And we aren't something other than what we are. We are what we are and we will remain so.
 

musterion

Well-known member
Why? CL is an 18 year old child, no life experience to glean from, nor the knowledge to differentiate the differences of the two. Most of what he espouses makes little sense, or has been critically thought out to it's logical ends from what I have seen.

I confess that I agree with libertarians to a point. Almost all conservatives do, to a point.

What puzzles me about CL is that libertarianism is predicated not only upon free will but also upon the premise that, if left alone, Man will make the best choices for himself and his neighbors. At its core, that makes libertarianism very humanistic (Neal Boortz as a prime and particularly odious example).

But both of those premises are disproved by all of human history as well as by Reformed theology/anthropology.

So a Calvinistic libertarian, as you say, is someone who just hasn't thought through either his Calvinism or his libertarianism all the way.
 

rocketman

Resident Rocket Surgeon
Hall of Fame
I confess that I agree with libertarians to a point. Almost all conservatives do, to a point.

What puzzles me about CL is that libertarianism is predicated not only upon free will but also upon the premise that, if left alone, Man will make the best choices for himself and his neighbors. At its core, that makes libertarianism very humanistic (Neal Boortz as a prime and particularly odious example).

But both of those premises are disproved by all of human history as well as by Reformed theology/anthropology.

So a Calvinistic libertarian, as you say, is someone who just hasn't thought one or the other through all the way.

An oxymoron...:chuckle:
 

PureX

Well-known member
I confess that I agree with libertarians to a point. Almost all conservatives do, to a point.

What puzzles me about CL is that libertarianism is predicated not only upon free will but also upon the premise that, if left alone, Man will make the best choices for himself and his neighbors. At its core, that makes libertarianism very humanistic …
No, it doesn't.

There is nothing particularly "humanistic" about the premise that, if left alone, mankind will make the best choices for himself and his neighbors; as there are few examples of humanity that have ever or could ever manifest such an ideal. And in fact, what this idea is, is an example of utopian idealism, not humanism.

And I do agree with you that there are a number of modern libertarian ideas that reflect this kind of utopian idealism. Though I don't think modern libertarians believe that we won't act aggressively toward each other as much as they want the right to dispatch anyone who does as they see fit, without interference from civil authorities.
… But both of those premises are disproved by all of human history as well as by Reformed theology/anthropology.
Indeed they are.

Still, God bless the idealism of youth.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
There is nothing particularly "humanistic" about the premise that, if left alone, mankind will make the best choices for himself and his neighbors

What is man's track record on this issue?
 

Nihilo

BANNED
Banned
How can we enforce this non-aggression policy without the use of force (which I presume you see as aggression)? Because without enforcement, the ideal cannot become a reality. It remains just an ideal. In fact, proposing it as a policy would require that we contradict it as an ideal.
True.
How does this ideal account for innate human aggressiveness and competitiveness? We humans would have to be something other than what we are, to be able or even willing to employ such an ideal. And we aren't something other than what we are. We are what we are and we will remain so.
True.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
There is nothing particularly "humanistic" about the premise that, if left alone, mankind will make the best choices for himself and his neighbors

What is man's track record on this issue?

You don't want to answer?
 
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