Proving God's Existence

[George Freed]

I've noticed that from time to time you get a person on your show who is atheist in their beliefs. I find it interesting how easily these people dismiss the existence of God when there seems to be a great deal of proof all around them.

I have an idea that I have used from time to time that often gets people to think a little bit more. I take them back to the year 1776 and explain that I'm talking to an educated person of that age. I try to explain to them the concept of radio and how radio waves can be used to actually talk to another person on the other side of the planet.

Now how do you thing that person would take my suggestion? They would probably think I was a little nuts. I remember my Grandpa watching the first moon flight on TV! He wanted to turn the TV off because he was absolutely sure that the moon flight was totally fake! Flying to the moon in a space ship is totally impossible in his mind.

With radio waves if you don't have the equipment to observe the waves you really can't prove their existence. This is the basic problem we have. We have a tendency to believe only what we can observe using our senses. We believe what we can see, hear, smell, taste or feel. But can you observe ultraviolet light, or infrared light. Can you observe frequencies above 40Khz. As a matter of fact when scientist look through those really big telescopes they don't use their eyes any more as they would miss way too much of whats out there. As a matter of fact if I was somehow able to build a radio transceiver in the year 1776 I might get into trouble with people who might believe I was using black magic or something. Galileo actually hid many of his inventions for fear of getting into trouble with people.

Today, unlike in the past we use instrumentation to observe so many things a person might come to the conclusion that our five senses are becoming obsolete! The fact is its true our five senses are becoming obsolete and in many cases not to be believed. Today with the high tech equipment and even the high speeds we can move at we can not rely on our senses to give us accurate information. As a matter of fact its very easy to fool our senses. Jet fighter pilots DO NOT really fly their aircraft when doing a bombing run. The Jet moves so fast that the pilots brain can not keep up due to the high speed. Pilots actually program an attack computer. They program in where the target is then hit the "go" button, the computer takes over, does the attack then hands the jet back over to the pilot when the attack run has been completed.

So in 1776 people would have a hard time dealing with our high tech culture that we have today. You would think that today with all our instrumentation and our abilities we would be more open the the obvious... The obvious being that the more we know or think we know only opens new areas of exploration. We launch the Hubble telescope and what happens, the scientists find out that they now have even more questions then they had before they looked through the thing! The fact is that what we should be understanding at this point is that "Nothing is Impossible"

So the big question is "What is God?" Well maybe what we should be first be asking is "Where is God?" Science has been talking allot about alternate dimensions. People are not very sure about dimensions because we really don't have the instrumentation to look into another dimension. As a matter of fact generally speaking the public knows so little about this subject that for the most part for us an alternate dimension is like SciFi to us. Without the instrumentation we can not observe and when we can not observe we have problems believing. This doesn't mean that what we can not observe doesn't exist. We should know this by now and this is what drives me up the walls. I use instruments and equipment every day to see and hear things that with my five senses are not observable. This computer I'm currently using talks via radio with this little box under the table in the other room! We are a generation of people who live with miracles from day to day yet we don't believe in them.

So what I'm saying here is that taking a position on the non-existence of God is in fact a belief system because you may not be able to prove God's existence but you can't disprove it either.. As a matter of fact as science progresses we are finding more and more that its getting more difficult discount a creative influence in our domain. Science is finding that too many things have to be aligned just so for our world to exist as it does.

Now when you start to look at genetics we find so much perfection there that it actually gets harder to be an atheist then it does to believe in SOME creative force be it God or little green men. Personally I believe the atheist of this world are going to at some point turn to the little green men theory because its going to be impossible to continue to believe in evolution. As it is now people are starting to wake up to the fact that evolution is getting out dated and this theory is just too full of holes.

In conclusion I'd like to say that I've heard far too many people say that they will only believe in what they can observe with their senses. I find this stance remarkable considering the times in which we live today. I fully understand that its way too easy to fool the human senses. As a matter of fact I think that many of the miraculous things the Anti--Christ will do will not be truly miraculous but tricks of high technology. Its not difficult to call "Fire from the sky!" when you have a Star Wars particle beam laser platform in geosynchronous orbit. Its going to get very interesting here on planet earth!

PS I have two cats. When I look and them and how perfect they are in body and all the things they can do I have a really hard time thinking they are a total accident of nature. All I can say is that nature had lots of interesting accidents for sure. If I didn't believe in God I would have to go with the little green men messing with DNA here on earth

 

[Jefferson]

Actually, for the very reasons you gave, more and more agnostic and atheist scientists are indeed turning to the theory of man's existence due to our being brought here from aliens from another planet. They are desperately grasping at straws because the only other alternative is that we were created by God and that would mean they would have to submit to Him. And there's the rub. It's not that they don't see evidence for God. It's that any excuse will do in order to come to the conclusion, in their minds, that He does not exist.

BTW, welcome to TOL George! :wave:

 

[George Freed]

I can see it coming

I can see it coming

Actually, the idea of little green men is a very interesting subject. As you may have noticed we have had allot of little green men in our popular media for a number of decades now. When I was a kid the idea of "little green men" was considered to be a foolish notion by my elders. The only place you could find little green men were in comic books. Tell you what in those days if I got caught with a comic book my parents would ground me or worse. Comics books were considered to be junk food for the brain.

What is interesting today is all the movies and TV shows that include aliens. We've gone from Alien monsters, like all them moves from the 50's to Alien gods. There is one movie in particular "Mission to Mars" that says it all. You need to rent the movie because what this movie postulates is where I think our society or the new world system will eventually end up. The theme song they will be singing will be John Lennon's "Imagine."

What's really interesting is the pure volume of aliens you see on the TV, movies and video games. We are totally exposed to the idea that the meanest looking aliens could be our friends. Or even that those little gray guys could be our friends. Lets see we have had little gray guys in a large number of movies and TV shows. Star Gate, Star Gate Atlantis, Babylon Five, StarTrek [TNG], StarTrek Voyager, Space 1999, the old UFO series, Mission to Mars kind of fit, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, and so on...

If you mix all these scifi stuff with all the game playing plus the UFO sightings and you get something very interesting. What you get is a kind of virtual reality that can over ride reality. Today we play around allot with reality to the point that people don't really know what reality is. As a matter of fact is well known to the people who lead and govern us that reality can be what ever they declare it to be. Throughout history we have seen this time and time again. In Almost every government there has ever been the media is always used to control the people. How did Germany and Japan get their people to believe that they were so much better then everyone else. Its always through the media and the medias support systems like schools and religious believes. A good example of this is the fact that more and more of the churches and the US are now starting to support abortion and gay rights. This doesn't surprise me at all actually.

I said all that in order to say this, I don't think all this is accidental. God has given me the idea that them little gray guys are in fact demons! These guys are not Extra terrestrial but in fact they are Inter Dimensional in nature. We are being set up to accept them when they finally appear on the scene. Its possible that at some point people will be told by the anti-Christ that HE is from and old alien and that his race came to our planet and modified the genetics of apes in order to create us. He may even say that WE have alien DNA in us creating a superior race of beings... That we are the most advanced beings in the universe. The people here will fall for this SO FAST! As we have seen in the past other anti-Christs like Hitler and Tojo did this very thing. Go back as far as you want and you will find some one attacking someone else because of superiority issues. Its always the same it seems and we don't to learn from out mistakes...

What I also find so interesting is the fact that people are so determined to toss God. It seems to me that if a person could indeed talk to God this would be a good and exciting thing for us. To explore God is an interesting concept. God would be an interesting being to talk to and to work with. Trust him and you can see the most interesting things happen.

This may seem a little crazy put I tried this experiment. As I said in my other post I have two cats. One of my cats got very sick. It was pooping blood and was hiding and in great pain. I took the cat to the vet and he said that it had deteriorated disks in its spine. My cat had been sick for a long time so I was going to have it put down. So I tried an experiment with God. I asked God if he still did healing things. I said to him that I was interested in how "healing" worked. I wasn't believing what I was seeing in the churches and on TV. So while I was asking God all this I was holding my poor sick cat.

Well two days later instead of a poor sick dieing cat I had a old kitten! My cats are not young, they are both around twelve and that makes them fairly old to start with. Now I have a crazy cat that runs all over the place and keeps me up half the night wanting to play or to be held.. So in this way God told me that indeed he still heals, but we don't need to make a circus out of it.

So my next question was about people! I now understood that God indeed does heal but how does God heal people! Well guess what I was visiting with my mother in law and she was crying because of migraines headaches. So I asked God if it was OK to give it a try so I prayed for her. Interestingly enough nothing happened and God told me why! God said observe her and what she does and how she lives. I found out that she doesn't take care of herself. She doesn't eat properly, eating all kinds of junk like ice cream, cakes, candies and chips. She was always stressed out over one thing or another. So I told her what I thought and the fact that I literally couldn't eat the stuff she was eating as I simply get sick when i eat allot of sweets. So I started to cook for them as I'm a good cook.

Well she basically told me that she didn't eat that many sweets and that she wasn't all that stressed out and that everything was OK. Well after a few more very painful headaches she went to the doctors. The doctor told her she was not only way over weight but she was diabetic too boot.. She was also told that her headaches were stress related. So I got to give her lessons on how to cook healthy! I like to cook mostly veggie dishes and I don't eat anything that is white... God told me that he can't heal people who abuse their bodies! He said people are allot harder to fix then cats.. People don't take care of themselves and even if he fixed them they would simply get sick again because they are not living right... So there you go the great experiment! Now this is kind of fun actually. Being able to learn stuff from God! I've learned allot of stuff from God and sometimes its not all that fun because he can use sickness and all kinds of things to get your attention, believe me I know.

Well I've rambles\d on long enough tonight, have a good one! :singer:

 

[Adam]

I've noticed that from time to time you get a person on your show who is atheist in their beliefs. I find it interesting how easily these people dismiss the existence of God when there seems to be a great deal of proof all around them.

I have an idea that I have used from time to time that often gets people to think a little bit more. I take them back to the year 1776 and explain that I'm talking to an educated person of that age. I try to explain to them the concept of radio and how radio waves can be used to actually talk to another person on the other side of the planet.

Now how do you thing that person would take my suggestion? They would probably think I was a little nuts. I remember my Grandpa watching the first moon flight on TV! He wanted to turn the TV off because he was absolutely sure that the moon flight was totally fake! Flying to the moon in a space ship is totally impossible in his mind.

With radio waves if you don't have the equipment to observe the waves you really can't prove their existence. This is the basic problem we have. We have a tendency to believe only what we can observe using our senses. We believe what we can see, hear, smell, taste or feel. But can you observe ultraviolet light, or infrared light. Can you observe frequencies above 40Khz. As a matter of fact when scientist look through those really big telescopes they don't use their eyes any more as they would miss way too much of whats out there. As a matter of fact if I was somehow able to build a radio transceiver in the year 1776 I might get into trouble with people who might believe I was using black magic or something. Galileo actually hid many of his inventions for fear of getting into trouble with people.

Today, unlike in the past we use instrumentation to observe so many things a person might come to the conclusion that our five senses are becoming obsolete! The fact is its true our five senses are becoming obsolete and in many cases not to be believed. Today with the high tech equipment and even the high speeds we can move at we can not rely on our senses to give us accurate information. As a matter of fact its very easy to fool our senses. Jet fighter pilots DO NOT really fly their aircraft when doing a bombing run. The Jet moves so fast that the pilots brain can not keep up due to the high speed. Pilots actually program an attack computer. They program in where the target is then hit the "go" button, the computer takes over, does the attack then hands the jet back over to the pilot when the attack run has been completed.

So in 1776 people would have a hard time dealing with our high tech culture that we have today. You would think that today with all our instrumentation and our abilities we would be more open the the obvious... The obvious being that the more we know or think we know only opens new areas of exploration. We launch the Hubble telescope and what happens, the scientists find out that they now have even more questions then they had before they looked through the thing! The fact is that what we should be understanding at this point is that "Nothing is Impossible"

So the big question is "What is God?" Well maybe what we should be first be asking is "Where is God?" Science has been talking allot about alternate dimensions. People are not very sure about dimensions because we really don't have the instrumentation to look into another dimension. As a matter of fact generally speaking the public knows so little about this subject that for the most part for us an alternate dimension is like SciFi to us. Without the instrumentation we can not observe and when we can not observe we have problems believing. This doesn't mean that what we can not observe doesn't exist. We should know this by now and this is what drives me up the walls. I use instruments and equipment every day to see and hear things that with my five senses are not observable. This computer I'm currently using talks via radio with this little box under the table in the other room! We are a generation of people who live with miracles from day to day yet we don't believe in them.

So what I'm saying here is that taking a position on the non-existence of God is in fact a belief system because you may not be able to prove God's existence but you can't disprove it either.. As a matter of fact as science progresses we are finding more and more that its getting more difficult discount a creative influence in our domain. Science is finding that too many things have to be aligned just so for our world to exist as it does.

Now when you start to look at genetics we find so much perfection there that it actually gets harder to be an atheist then it does to believe in SOME creative force be it God or little green men. Personally I believe the atheist of this world are going to at some point turn to the little green men theory because its going to be impossible to continue to believe in evolution. As it is now people are starting to wake up to the fact that evolution is getting out dated and this theory is just too full of holes.

In conclusion I'd like to say that I've heard far too many people say that they will only believe in what they can observe with their senses. I find this stance remarkable considering the times in which we live today. I fully understand that its way too easy to fool the human senses. As a matter of fact I think that many of the miraculous things the Anti--Christ will do will not be truly miraculous but tricks of high technology. Its not difficult to call "Fire from the sky!" when you have a Star Wars particle beam laser platform in geosynchronous orbit. Its going to get very interesting here on planet earth!

PS I have two cats. When I look and them and how perfect they are in body and all the things they can do I have a really hard time thinking they are a total accident of nature. All I can say is that nature had lots of interesting accidents for sure. If I didn't believe in God I would have to go with the little green men messing with DNA here on earth

Brilliant. :up: Praise God for you brother.

 

[SUTG]

:e4e: Welcome to TOL, George!

As you can see by looking under my screen-name, I am one of the atheists. It is true that you will sometimes hear atheists or agnostics say that they only believe in that which they have discovered through the use of their five senses. This, I agree, is ridiculous.

However, most atheists would never make such a claim. There are quite a few atheists that believe in gravity, electricity, and the non-visible spectrum of EM waves. Most atheists would probably rather say something along the line of not believing in that for which there is no evidence. An atheist in the year 1012 would probably not believe in radio waves because he had not seen any evidence.

As far as belief in the Christian God, I feel the same way. There is no evidence for his existence, and it is more reasonable to believe that it is the case that he does not exist. I feel the same way about most conceptions of gods, except for the sort of god of deism.

On to the aliens, I think you've raised some interesting points, but don't really see anyone abandoning the Theory of Evolution for the alien theory any time soon. The Theory of Evolution was presented and backed up with ample evidence over 150 years ago. No competing theories have been presented since, and the amount of evidence in support of the theory has grown considerably. To not believe in evolution in this day and age, and in the face of such overwhelming evidence, is a tough line to tow. You really have to perform some mental gymnastics to avoid the evidence accumulating from so many different sources. Alot of work!

I guess a case could be made that aliens created the seeds of life, but the theory of evolution is really the only explanation for the diversity of life and would not be falsified even in the case of the aliens. The evidence for evolution still exists, aliens or not!

As far as not being able to prove the existence or non-existence of god, I don't think most people can prove most of their beliefs one way or another. Reasonable arguments are the most we can do. Someone once said you can only prove things in a rigid system like geometry, and I'd tend to agree. But saying that someone can not prove the non-existence of god only raises god to the status of all of the other things which we cannot disprove. There are so many things of this type and hardly anyone believes in any of them. Why should gods be any different based on this line of argumentation?

 

[The Berean]

SUTG,

What type of evidence would convince you that the Christian God exists? :think:

What type of evidence would convince you that the Green Bay Packers have no chance against the 49ers? :wazzup:

 

[SUTG]

What type of evidence would convince you that the Christian God exists? :think:

Someone on here once posted a link to an article by an atheist on what he would consider evidence to convince him that gods exist. I wish I had that link becuase it explained my position pretty well. There are lots of kinds of evidence that would do: Actual prophecies in the Bible that come to pass, clouds parting in the sky and a big hand coming down, arguments showing that it is more reasonable to believe than to disbelieve, etc.

What type of evidence would convince you that the Green Bay Packers have no chance against the 49ers? :wazzup:

That would be alot tougher. :wazzup:

 

[Johnny]

They are desperately grasping at straws because the only other alternative is that we were created by God and that would mean they would have to submit to Him. And there's the rub. It's not that they don't see evidence for God. It's that any excuse will do in order to come to the conclusion, in their minds, that He does not exist.

Classic. This argument makes the completely unfounded assumption that if you believe in God you must believe in a God who holds you accountable. I personally know of theists who believe in a very impersonal and indifferent god who could care less about submission.

 

[PKevman]

I personally know of theists who believe in a very impersonal and indifferent god who could care less about submission.

Which is why there is a HUGE difference between a theist and a Biblicist.

 

[PKevman]

Classic. This argument makes the completely unfounded assumption that if you believe in God you must believe in a God who holds you accountable. I personally know of theists who believe in a very impersonal and indifferent god who could care less about submission.

This would make that theist a deist.

 

[fredflintstone]

I don't believe in any gods, including the Christian one. I haven't been shown any convincing evidence. My question is why do Christians care if I believe in God. In all frankness, I don't care if people do believe in God.

 

[George Freed]

:e4e: Welcome to TOL, George!

As you can see by looking under my screen-name, I am one of the atheists. It is true that you will sometimes hear atheists or agnostics say that they only believe in that which they have discovered through the use of their five senses. This, I agree, is ridiculous.

However, most atheists would never make such a claim. There are quite a few atheists that believe in gravity, electricity, and the non-visible spectrum of EM waves. Most atheists would probably rather say something along the line of not believing in that for which there is no evidence. An atheist in the year 1012 would probably not believe in radio waves because he had not seen any evidence.

As far as belief in the Christian God, I feel the same way. There is no evidence for his existence, and it is more reasonable to believe that it is the case that he does not exist. I feel the same way about most conceptions of gods, except for the sort of god of deism.

On to the aliens, I think you've raised some interesting points, but don't really see anyone abandoning the Theory of Evolution for the alien theory any time soon. The Theory of Evolution was presented and backed up with ample evidence over 150 years ago. No competing theories have been presented since, and the amount of evidence in support of the theory has grown considerably. To not believe in evolution in this day and age, and in the face of such overwhelming evidence, is a tough line to tow. You really have to perform some mental gymnastics to avoid the evidence accumulating from so many different sources. Alot of work!

I guess a case could be made that aliens created the seeds of life, but the theory of evolution is really the only explanation for the diversity of life and would not be falsified even in the case of the aliens. The evidence for evolution still exists, aliens or not!

As far as not being able to prove the existence or non-existence of god, I don't think most people can prove most of their beliefs one way or another. Reasonable arguments are the most we can do. Someone once said you can only prove things in a rigid system like geometry, and I'd tend to agree. But saying that someone can not prove the non-existence of god only raises god to the status of all of the other things which we cannot disprove. There are so many things of this type and hardly anyone believes in any of them. Why should gods be any different based on this line of argumentation?

 

[George Freed]

I don't believe in any gods, including the Christian one. I haven't been shown any convincing evidence. My question is why do Christians care if I believe in God. In all frankness, I don't care if people do believe in God.

There is a good answer to this question. Its because we like folks! I mean if you knew the bridge was out and folks were heading for a big fall, wouldn't you attempt to flag them down and get them to stop. For us its literally a matter of saving people's lives.

I understand that for many "Christians" its a power thing! Anyone not exactly like them are evil. You can always tell who those folks are becuase they always seem to be mad at those who are not clones of themselves. For me you can be who you want to be. Once God has you he's good at giving directing even if it takes awhile...

I look at it this way. Currently there are three houses in existence, the house of God, the house of Man, and the house of the bad guy. Well at some point the house of man the the bad guy are going to fall apart. Looking at how we are going you know that at some point we are going to nuke ourself so the idea of the house of man going south Isn't to hard to believe. If we are bad and other guy is even worse and you know he isn''t going to make it.

So when a person dies where does he go? Lets look at your house for an example; Your the king of your house and in it you have all kinds of folks that you really care about. So there are all these folks wandering around your place wanting to come in. Who are you going to let in? You wouldn't let folks in who hate you, or will not follow the house rules. You wouldn't let folks in who would Rob your house or do harm to your family...

Look at the US and what's happening there. They let anyone and everyone in and the place is getting to be a mess. People from all over are going to the country not necessarily to be americans but to get whatever they can get. Lots of bad folks are just walking right in and doing crimes..

Well anyway its a good bet that you wouldn't let anyone through your front door who would do you or your family harm. So lets say your the guy God didn't let in! Where do you go because if God will not let you into his house there really isn't anywhere else to go. Basically God is giving folks what they want. If you don't want God, well there really isn't anywhere else to go really. This is why God talks about people being placed in "outer darkness"

Its always been my idea that where God is NOT there IS nothing, hence the outer darkness thing. Have you ever been in solitary confinement? Neither have I, but from what I've heard its really bad. Its like these folks that do the deprivation tank thing. Its good for an hour or two but stay in one of those things for say a year and your mind will melt and run out your ears. Deprivation is actually a very effective form of torture actually. People were not made to be left alone and from what I've been able to figgure out hell is basically a place without God, but since God made everything a place without God is without anything at all. So the idea here isn't that God is so mean and all. Its more like he will not let people into his place that don't like him. Hey its his house!!!

So the idea here is to let folks know that being totally alone for eternity is really a bad thing VS being with God and with lots of really good, loving, trusting folks is a good thing.
Frankly for me its having lots and lots of friend that I can be with and work with for a very long time. To me people are a treasure and the more people you have as good friends and better off we are.. I like to take my friends with me, I want to see them again and forever. After all whats important in life the things you collect or the people you love? In fact the reality is that without good, solid relationships between people nothing gets done.
Ultimately though its really up to you, I'm just the guy standing on that road saying "hey folks the bridge is out, don't go this way!" :singer: