Proof from the Bible that God is In Time

[godrulz]

God is, was and always will be the same. We experience time, which He takes part in with us in The Form of Flesh.

The triune relations apart from material creation experienced thinking, acting, feeling, relationship, fellowship, love, etc. These things all presume sequence, succession, duration (i.e. time). There is a before and after creation. Eternity is not timelessness/simultaneity/eternal now (pagan philosophy), but endless duration/time.

A timeless being could not experience time, creation would be co-eternal with Him, etc. God is the same in some ways, but not other ways. The incarnation is a new change in the being of God. He had eternity past to experience triune relations before the change of relationships with created beings/reality.

Your ideas are simplistic, not defensible nor thought out.

Rev. 1:4 uses tensed expressions about God. Like other personal beings, He has a past, present, future. This is evidenced on every single page of Scripture that shows duration in the divine being without hints that it is figurative vs literal revelation.

 

[godrulz]

Because of this post I received my first EVER negative rep and comment in all of my years here on TheologyOnline.

I received it from user sky and it says...to me...



That's real classy.

Thank you.

Punny....

 

[zippy2006]

A timeless being could not experience time.

Is God immaterial? Did He experience material existence?

 

[godrulz]

Is God immaterial? Did He experience material existence?

Angels are not material and they experience duration/sequence/succession=time.

Personal beings act, think, feel presupposing duration/time (why would God be an exception?). He is from everlasting to everlasting, not timeless. Eternity simply does not mean timeless in Scripture, just in Platonic philosophy wrongly adopted by Augustine.

Jesus is God and He experienced material existence/time. Time is an aspect of existence, not a thing that cannot be part of God's eternal experience. It is not a limitation on God like it is on us.


The material measures of time should not be confused with the concept of duration/time that is an aspect of God's triune existence (at least as seen in every page of Scripture).

http://www.revivaltheology.net/9_openness/eternity.html Tradition is not always truth and there are alternate views that are more biblical, coherent.

http://www.amazon.com/God-Time-Views-Paul-Helm/dp/0830815511 Wolterstorff gets it right with Craig worth considering (part right).

 

[zippy2006]

A timeless being could not experience time.

Is God immaterial? Did He experience material existence?

Jesus is God and He experienced material existence.

So your logic is clearly flawed. Just because God is timeless does not mean He cannot experience time.

 

[sangrida7]

If you say god definitively exists in time, you are effectively limiting the possible area of existence. Modern physics has concluded that there exists(or existed) places where time does not exist. Time is an effect that comes from matter and space(dark energy). The pre-Big Bang universe had no time and logically no god. There is also no time inside a black whole. If god exists in time you could effectivley leave his domain by simply throwing yourself into a black whole. Of course you'd die but could you escape an afterlife. I guess what I'm asking is(it may be a tad off topic) is the transportation of a soul automatic or does god directly intervene.

Someone please get back to me on that.

 

[godrulz]

So your logic is clearly flawed. Just because God is timeless does not mean He cannot experience time.

This is debatable, but the bottom line is that there is no evidence that God is timeless (whatever that means to a personal being). I think it could be demonstrated that a timeless being and a tensed being are mutually exclusive. Either God experiences things sequentially, even is His eternal, triune relations, or He experiences reality as one timeless, eternal now, simultaneity. Either A or B theory of time/eternity is correct, not both at the same time. There is also no reason to think God's experience has to be non-sequential despite every page of Scripture contradicting this. Timelessness is a philosophical theory that does not make sense. It is not demanded by any reading of Scripture.

 

[godrulz]

If you say god definitively exists in time, you are effectively limiting the possible area of existence. Modern physics has concluded that there exists(or existed) places where time does not exist. Time is an effect that comes from matter and space(dark energy). The pre-Big Bang universe had no time and logically no god. There is also no time inside a black whole. If god exists in time you could effectivley leave his domain by simply throwing yourself into a black whole. Of course you'd die but could you escape an afterlife. I guess what I'm asking is(it may be a tad off topic) is the transportation of a soul automatic or does god directly intervene.

Someone please get back to me on that.

Does not compute. Confusing time and space, past/present/future, etc. is an Einsteinian mistake, not evidence based. Atheist logic is illogical on these things. The academic literature has answered these issues. Time is also more in the realm of philosophy than speculative physics.

(see J.R. Lucas 'A Treatise on Time and Space').

 

[zippy2006]

If you say god definitively exists in time, you are effectively limiting the possible area of existence. Modern physics has concluded that there exists(or existed) places where time does not exist. Time is an effect that comes from matter and space(dark energy). The pre-Big Bang universe had no time and logically no god. There is also no time inside a black whole. If god exists in time you could effectivley leave his domain by simply throwing yourself into a black whole. Of course you'd die but could you escape an afterlife.

Good points. :thumb: Traditional Christianity (i.e. Christianity up to the 18th century) has held that God does not exist in time. Even today that is the orthodox position by a vast majority.

I guess what I'm asking is(it may be a tad off topic) is the transportation of a soul automatic or does god directly intervene.

I don't think there is a definitive answer to this question, most answers would be speculative.

:e4e:

 

[sangrida7]

@godrulz
I have no idea what you are trying to say past that I am wrong, which you have not provided evidence to support. I am perfectly willing to answer questions if you have them but I will do it tomorrow for it is past my bedtime.

 

[sky.]

Does not compute. Confusing time and space, past/present/future, etc. is an Einsteinian mistake, not evidence based. Atheist logic is illogical on these things. The academic literature has answered these issues. Time is also more in the realm of philosophy than speculative physics.

(see J.R. Lucas 'A Treatise on Time and Space').

@godrulz
I have no idea what you are trying to say past that I am wrong, which you have not provided evidence to support. I am perfectly willing to answer questions if you have them but I will do it tomorrow for it is past my bedtime.

Don't expect "god rulz" (small g) to teach you what the Bible says about the attributes of God.

gr parrots what he has been fed, crackers.

 

[sangrida7]

Don't expect "god rulz" (small g) to teach you what the Bible says about the attributes of God.

gr parrots what he has been fed, crackers.

I have noticed a slightly salty taste in his comments.

 

[sky.]

I have noticed a slightly salty taste in his comments.

gr dodges the Scriptures.

 

[godrulz]

Don't expect "god rulz" (small g) to teach you what the Bible says about the attributes of God.

gr parrots what he has been fed, crackers.

You are the one uncritically spouting Sunday School tradition. I have wrestled with, researched, thought about the competing views for over 30 years and made an informed decision that I believe is biblical/coherent. You have not even scratched the surface of this complex debate.

 

[sky.]

You are the one uncritically spouting Sunday School tradition. I have wrestled with, researched, thought about the competing views for over 30 years and made an informed decision that I believe is biblical/coherent. You have not even scratched the surface of this complex debate.

Well gee, too bad your Sunday school sucked.

 

[godrulz]

Well gee, too bad your Sunday school sucked.

We learned about Jesus when I was young, not the A vs B theory of time (presentism vs eternalism). We also did not learn about why exhaustive definite foreknowledge in light of libertarian free will, but we did learn about the Bible and loving Jesus.

 

[sky.]

We learned about Jesus when I was young, not the A vs B theory of time (presentism vs eternalism). We also did not learn about why exhaustive definite foreknowledge in light of libertarian free will, but we did learn about the Bible and loving Jesus.

We should all keep learning about Jesus. The Bible is a great resource for that. I don't recall ever having a teacher of the Bible use the words you use.

I can't even imagine that they should!

 

[DFT_Dave]

Good points. :thumb: Traditional Christianity (i.e. Christianity up to the 18th century) has held that God does not exist in time. Even today that is the orthodox position by a vast majority.

I don't think there is a definitive answer to this question, most answers would be speculative.

:e4e:

Then Christ for you is not God, since he lived in time.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

So your logic is clearly flawed. Just because God is timeless does not mean He cannot experience time.

Saying God is timeless and in time at the same time is absolutely irrational.

--Dave

 

[sangrida7]

Then Christ for you is not God, since he lived in time.

--Dave

Interesting point.