ECT Our triune God

[Lon]

This thread is specifically for triune believers. No other need or should post here.

I'm personally boycotting these cultists threads against our view. I have found none of them are here to learn a thing and they certainly don't make a cogent or compelling presentation. Its a waste of bandwidth and time from my experience. This thread is for posting material to help us on our way.

 

[Krsto]

"triune believer" - you mean like one which has a body, soul, and spirit?

 

[Lon]

God created the heavens and the earth
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Gen 1:11 God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: plants yielding seeds according to their kinds, and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds." It was so.

We can see from these verses God has created the tree.

Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.
Col 1:16 For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And He is the Head of the body, the church, who is the Beginning, the First-born from the dead, that He may be pre-eminent in all things.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all fullness should dwell.

We know from Genesis 1:1 God created the heavens and earth. Naturally, the first thing we see in Colossians 1:16 is that all things were created through and for Christ.
We have one of two ways to go here: Either these scriptures disagree with one another, or they completely agree with one another. Some would purport a third option: that God created through Christ Jesus, but the problem with such a view is first, that it is not explicitly given from the text. It is a deduction rather than an idea explicitly given. If, as we read in 2 Timothy 3:16, that all scripture is given by God, we should readily discount the second. We then have the dilemma of these two passages completely agreeing with one another and that we have an equation. God and Christ are used interchangeably so as one is not distinguished from the other.

Doubt verses Denial
The RC has called the triune (Trinitarian) view mysterious. That is, there is an embrace of things not entirely explained which carries the idea that we believe first and if possible, answer what questions we may without going beyond the written scriptures such as the third option above does, with deductive reasoning. We do use deductive reasoning to fill in gaps in missing information, but when it comes to scripture, we admit our lack and loosely (tentatively) hold to a working theory/possibility. A mystery allows for doubt. That is, if a thing is not explained, we may wonder whether we are apprehending or able to apprehend information we are given. In our comparison we see God and Christ used interchangeably as creator. There is nothing from the text that would allow us to deny that God and Christ are equated in scripture. If the scripture does not support denial, denial is purposefully against the written word. If the author of Colossians had wanted to make a stark distinction to how the world was created, he didn’t do so. We cannot assume he neglected this. If he intended that we should see distinction, the text does not give any inclination. Knowing full the Genesis account, this one is written blurring the lines between Genesis 1 and Colossians 1:16. Not novel to the Colossians author, the Apostle John states in similar fashion:

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not a thing came into being that has come into being.




God with us
Isa 7:14 So, the Lord Himself shall give you a sign. Behold, the virgin will conceive and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Immanuel.
Mat 1:22 Now all this happened so that might be fulfilled that which was spoken of the LORD by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive in her womb, and will bear a son. And they will call His name Emmanuel," which means, God with us.

If Christ was not God, this prophecy was never fulfilled. Some reinterpret this scripture to mean, “God is for us” eradicating the wording and meaning of this promise.

 

[Lon]

"triune believer" - you mean like one which has a body, soul, and spirit?

Did you read and are you following the OP directions?

 

[SovereigntyIsGods]

Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1Ki 18:38 Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
1Ki 18:39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces and said, "The LORD, he is God; the LORD, he is God."

Something that struck me today.

 

[Nihilo]

God is immaterial (spirit).

So the three that are one, they must also be immaterial.

The Father is immaterial. The manifestations of the Father are also immaterial; the Holy Spirit and the Word. These - Father, Spirit and Word - are the three that are one.

The Holy Spirit manifests as all life.

The Word manifested as the man Jesus, and as the written Scriptures.

So God is immaterial,
triune as the Father, and His two manifestations, the Holy Spirit and the Word,
and He manifests materially as all life, in the man Jesus, and in the written Scriptures.

 

[Krsto]

God created the heavens and the earth
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Gen 1:11 God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: plants yielding seeds according to their kinds, and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds." It was so.

We can see from these verses God has created the tree.

Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.
Col 1:16 For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And He is the Head of the body, the church, who is the Beginning, the First-born from the dead, that He may be pre-eminent in all things.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all fullness should dwell.

We know from Genesis 1:1 God created the heavens and earth. Naturally, the first thing we see in Colossians 1:16 is that all things were created through and for Christ.
We have one of two ways to go here: Either these scriptures disagree with one another, or they completely agree with one another. Some would purport a third option: that God created through Christ Jesus, but the problem with such a view is first, that it is not explicitly given from the text. It is a deduction rather than an idea explicitly given. If, as we read in 2 Timothy 3:16, that all scripture is given by God, we should readily discount the second. We then have the dilemma of these two passages completely agreeing with one another and that we have an equation. God and Christ are used interchangeably so as one is not distinguished from the other.

Doubt verses Denial
The RC has called the triune (Trinitarian) view mysterious. That is, there is an embrace of things not entirely explained which carries the idea that we believe first and if possible, answer what questions we may without going beyond the written scriptures such as the third option above does, with deductive reasoning. We do use deductive reasoning to fill in gaps in missing information, but when it comes to scripture, we admit our lack and loosely (tentatively) hold to a working theory/possibility. A mystery allows for doubt. That is, if a thing is not explained, we may wonder whether we are apprehending or able to apprehend information we are given. In our comparison we see God and Christ used interchangeably as creator. There is nothing from the text that would allow us to deny that God and Christ are equated in scripture. If the scripture does not support denial, denial is purposefully against the written word. If the author of Colossians had wanted to make a stark distinction to how the world was created, he didn’t do so. We cannot assume he neglected this. If he intended that we should see distinction, the text does not give any inclination. Knowing full the Genesis account, this one is written blurring the lines between Genesis 1 and Colossians 1:16. Not novel to the Colossians author, the Apostle John states in similar fashion:

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not a thing came into being that has come into being.




God with us
Isa 7:14 So, the Lord Himself shall give you a sign. Behold, the virgin will conceive and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Immanuel.
Mat 1:22 Now all this happened so that might be fulfilled that which was spoken of the LORD by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive in her womb, and will bear a son. And they will call His name Emmanuel," which means, God with us.

If Christ was not God, this prophecy was never fulfilled. Some reinterpret this scripture to mean, “God is for us” eradicating the wording and meaning of this promise.

Are you here to learn anything Lon? You have not covered all the possible interpretations for these scriptures.

 

[Son of Jack]

Philippians 2:9-11: Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Isaiah 45:22-23: "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath."

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Isaiah 43:14 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.

Isaiah 43:15 I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.





Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;


1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

 

[Tico]

Zech. 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

....

Zech 12:10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

 

[keypurr]

Lon, you preach a lie.

See scripture as it is written, not as you wish it to be.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ

Jesus is the man. Not God.

 

[Buzzword]

Jesus is the man. Not God.

I'm curious how you justify this in light of the verses Son of Jack posted.

Philippians 2:9-11: Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

And in light of John 1:18

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

and John 14:9.

Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

 

[Lon]

Lon, you preach a lie.

See scripture as it is written, not as you wish it to be.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ

Jesus is the man. Not God.

Keypurr, please also note the OP and comply with its directions.
I'm sure it is hard to resist, but this thread isn't made for debate with you guys. There are plenty of threads you've made for that. You needn't clog up one that asks you politely not to do so.

 

[Gill White]

Jesus never separated himself. He spoke openly, to the crowd and He went into the temples/churches of those days, and taught from the Scriptures: He had boldness, to confront the people, He did not hide from them.

Jud 1:19
(19) These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

If we treat each other with respect, and speak from the Word of God, and with love, and not backbite each other, I do not see any reason for people to come into any thread and speak from the Word of God, and ask questions:

I speak from the Word of God:

Mat 16:16-17
(16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
(17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

I confess this, and even Jesus himself, said Peter was blessed, so I have no idea why today, one cannot do the same:

Rom 10:9-10
(9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This to I also confess: The Word of God:

My views are irrelevant:

 

[Lazy afternoon]

God created the heavens and the earth
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Gen 1:11 God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: plants yielding seeds according to their kinds, and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds." It was so.

We can see from these verses God has created the tree.

Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.
Col 1:16 For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And He is the Head of the body, the church, who is the Beginning, the First-born from the dead, that He may be pre-eminent in all things.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all fullness should dwell.

We know from Genesis 1:1 God created the heavens and earth. Naturally, the first thing we see in Colossians 1:16 is that all things were created through and for Christ.
We have one of two ways to go here: Either these scriptures disagree with one another, or they completely agree with one another. Some would purport a third option: that God created through Christ Jesus, but the problem with such a view is first, that it is not explicitly given from the text. It is a deduction rather than an idea explicitly given. If, as we read in 2 Timothy 3:16, that all scripture is given by God, we should readily discount the second. We then have the dilemma of these two passages completely agreeing with one another and that we have an equation. God and Christ are used interchangeably so as one is not distinguished from the other.

Doubt verses Denial
The RC has called the triune (Trinitarian) view mysterious. That is, there is an embrace of things not entirely explained which carries the idea that we believe first and if possible, answer what questions we may without going beyond the written scriptures such as the third option above does, with deductive reasoning. We do use deductive reasoning to fill in gaps in missing information, but when it comes to scripture, we admit our lack and loosely (tentatively) hold to a working theory/possibility. A mystery allows for doubt. That is, if a thing is not explained, we may wonder whether we are apprehending or able to apprehend information we are given. In our comparison we see God and Christ used interchangeably as creator. There is nothing from the text that would allow us to deny that God and Christ are equated in scripture. If the scripture does not support denial, denial is purposefully against the written word. If the author of Colossians had wanted to make a stark distinction to how the world was created, he didn’t do so. We cannot assume he neglected this. If he intended that we should see distinction, the text does not give any inclination. Knowing full the Genesis account, this one is written blurring the lines between Genesis 1 and Colossians 1:16. Not novel to the Colossians author, the Apostle John states in similar fashion:

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not a thing came into being that has come into being.




God with us
Isa 7:14 So, the Lord Himself shall give you a sign. Behold, the virgin will conceive and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Immanuel.
Mat 1:22 Now all this happened so that might be fulfilled that which was spoken of the LORD by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive in her womb, and will bear a son. And they will call His name Emmanuel," which means, God with us.

If Christ was not God, this prophecy was never fulfilled. Some reinterpret this scripture to mean, “God is for us” eradicating the wording and meaning of this promise.

Lon,

Why post arguments against other views if you only want to post three gods trinitarianism, and add to Gods word concerning the Father, His Son and the Fathers Holy Spirit.

If the scriptures are so clear, requiring no explanation in our present culture then only post them, but you know that many of the writings were given in another culture and way of thinking and so many over the centuries have disputed as to the correct translating of them.

Do you claim without any doubt that you understand that (trintarianism) which the authors of were a Godless bunch of murderers who did not understand.

LA.

 

[Lon]

Isn't it absurd, when asked not to post here, they do anyway. As if their own threads aren't enough this one needs hijacking?

 

[Colossians]

The Trinity is inherently an 'illogical' doctrine, and therein lies its force: no-one in their right natural mind would have thought it up, so given that it takes no glory away from the cross, it is of necessity, true.

For any doctrine which can be shown to take no glory from Calvary, is necessarily true, and this by virtue of the fact that there is only one way to glorify God, and that is by the one and only Truth who is necessarily God Himself.

Historically, there has been much manipulation and positioning of words by various denominations and creeds, in order to get the definition of the Trinity right - to get it to 'sit well' in the conscience and the understanding.

Such lexical attempts have in the main played with the terms "being", "person", "essence", and "personality". This has largely been unfruitful.

Rather, given the 'illogicality' of it, the doctrine is naturally best defined when expressed in terms which are maximally contradictory and therefore maximally removed from man's dirty little 'rational' mind.

The Trinity is therefore best defined as follows:

1. God is one person only, with no severalness about Him whatsoever. Not merely one in cause, but one indivisible single spirit. He is no less an individual and singular person than any human being. There is absolutely no division in Him whatsoever.

2. God is not one person at all, but comprises 3 completely separate individuals (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit) each of whom are completely God on their own. They are as separate and distinct as any human being is from another, with no overlap whatsoever.

3. Both (1) and (2) are completely true, at exactly the same time, with neither (1) nor (2) having any more weight or legitimacy than the other.

The doctrine of the Triniity.

 

[Krsto]

The Trinity is inherently an 'illogical' doctrine, and therein lies its force: no-one in their right natural mind would have thought it up, so given that it takes no glory away from the cross, it is of necessity, true.

For any doctrine which can be shown to take no glory from Calvary, is necessarily true, and this by virtue of the fact that there is only one way to glorify God, and that is by the one and only Truth who is necessarily God Himself.

Historically, there has been much manipulation and positioning of words by various denominations and creeds, in order to get the definition of the Trinity right - to get it to 'sit well' in the conscience and the understanding.

Such lexical attempts have in the main played with the terms "being", "person", "essence", and "personality". This has largely been unfruitful.

Rather, given the 'illogicality' of it, the doctrine is naturally best defined when expressed in terms which are maximally contradictory and therefore maximally removed from man's dirty little 'rational' mind.

The Trinity is therefore best defined as follows:

1. God is one person only, with no severalness about Him whatsoever. Not merely one in cause, but one indivisible single spirit. He is no less an individual and singular person than any human being. There is absolutely no division in Him whatsoever.

2. God is not one person at all, but comprises 3 completely separate individuals (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit) each of whom are completely God on their own. They are as separate and distinct as any human being is from another, with no overlap whatsoever.

3. Both (1) and (2) are completely true, at exactly the same time, with neither (1) nor (2) having any more weight or legitimacy than the other.

The doctrine of the Triniity.

[hijack] The orthodox doctrine of the trinity says they all have the same will so in that regard are not 3 persons, only 3 "centers of consiousness," which of course presents problems when we read Jesus not having a will to be crucified and thus submitting his own (obviously) distinct will to that of the (obviously) distinct will of his father. [/hijack]

 

[Lon]

I started this thread with this also in mind:

Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions and genealogies and contentions, and strivings about the Law, for they are unprofitable and vain.
Tit 3:10 After the first and second warning, reject a man of heresy

It seems to confirm the contentious nature suspected as I gave clear posting instruction to avoid debate and asked anti-trinitarians not to post.

 

[Nihilo]

God is immaterial (spirit).
So the three that are one, they must also be immaterial.

The image of the Father is immaterial; the Word. The Father and the Word are one.
The image of the Word is immaterial; the Holy Spirit. The Word and the Holy Spirit are one.

The image of the Holy Spirit is material.
All life is the image of the Holy Spirit, which is the image of the Word, which is the image of the Father.

God is triune, as the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.
The Father's image is the Word.
The Word's image is the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit's image is life.
The Word's image is creation.
The Father's image is Jesus.
God's image is man.