Knight said:
Z Man, you have presupposed that God preordained Abimelech's actions.
Don't ya get it?
There is NO reason whatsoever to assume that God preordained Abimelech's actions. Therefore your point fails before it can start.
Knight, I'm not arguing for God's predestining of events; I'm simply showing Biblical proof to show that indeed there are instances in the Bible where God ordained/has complete control over an event, and yet, the people involved were still responsible for their actions. That's all! I'm not trying to get you to see God preordaining these events. I merely want to show you that these people were responsible even though God directed the entire event.
You asked a question that assumed you did not believe that we could be held responsible for anything God controlled. I simply posted these verses to prove otherwise.
This is the reason I was showing you why God interacted with Peter so that God could effect Peters will. In fact, you brilliantly gave me the exact biblical reason that God availed His foreknowledge to Peter John 13:19, "I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am."
For if we have no control of our choices it wouldn't be necessary for God to attempt to convince Peter that God was who He said He was.
Again, this assumes that if we have no control of our choices, God cannot change them. Just because we have no control over our choices doesn't mean we don't make them. When I say 'we have no control', I mean that we cannot freely choose to do things that please God of our own will. As long as sin holds us captive, we never have control of our choices. The sin inside us does. We have no control over our choices, and that's exactly why God MUST attempt to convince us to see things His way. It's 100% up to Him to save us and free us from the captivity of sin, because we have no control ourselves.
The only thing these verses prove is that your theology clouds your vision so completely that you see something in them that flatly isn't there. For your point to be made you would need to demonstrate that Peter and Abimelech's every action was preordained.
No I don't! Preordaining the events is an entirely different topic!
The point is clearly made, without having to add any sort of doctrine to it. The verses I presented are just simple, clean, doctrine free Biblical proof that clearly shows us the possibility of God controlling our events in life, and yet, we are still held responsible for them.
I don't think we're on the same page here. It seems that you expect me to prove that God 'predestined' these events, and that's it. But that's clearly NOT my point. I just wanted to show proof to your question that seemed to doubt the fact that we are responsible for our actions even though God is in complete control of them all.
Personally I believe that all things were predetermined way before we were even created, but by no means am I trying to argue that specific point in this thread. Are we clear on this?
Actually I agree with your last paragraph 100%, although I would agree with most theologians that say that God's motivation was to also protect Sarah. But setting that aside, I agree with your last paragraph but none of that requires preordination.
Then great Knight! This is a huge step! I don't care if you believe that these events require predestination or not; that wasn't the point, and we can always discuss that later in another thread. But the fact that you do agree that God controlled Abimilech's actions, and that he was also responsible for them, means that we agree on way much more than you think. :thumb:
Z Man said:
A manipulated, influenced, or limited will is not free.
Says who? You?
No; says the dictionary:
free will n.:
- The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
- The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
There is no logical reason whatsoever to make the jump that a will that is influenced, manipulated or even restricted is no longer a freewill.
Think about this . . .
A convicted criminal is sent to prison. His freedom is removed. But is his freewill removed? Of course not! The prisoner doesn't want to be there, his will is that he wants out! His will is in tact yet his freedom (not freewill) is restricted. His freewill choices are now limited. But he can still choose to eat or not to eat, to play basketball or not play basketball etc.
There is no reason whatsoever to assert "A manipulated, influenced, or limited will is not free."
I think our definitions of 'freewill' may differ a bit, and thus leading us to talk past one another.
When you speak of freewill, I assume that you mean a person has total and complete freedom to do whatever the heck they so desire, whether it's good, bad, for God, against God, for themselves; whatever. And that there is nothing in this world that can ever manipulate, influence, or limit a person's ability to choose and do as they please. It is this definition that I wholeheartedly disagree with because it is not Biblical.
But after some consideration and seeing the overall tone of this thread, I've come to realize that this definition must not be the one you hold either. Of course, the above definition is what I believe freewill to mean, to which I would have to say does not exist among humans. I do, however, believe that people are able to do things, plan ideas and thoughts in their minds, and hearts, and even act upon them if they so desire. Yet, as the verse in Proverbs points out, our actions and choices are limited by one thing; God's will. If we come up with an idea, and it fit's in with God's overall perfect will, He will allow us to follow through with that idea, which to us seems like we have 'free will', and are able to do as we wish. But then there are times when we plan things, and yet, it never happens. Something else may come up in our life that smothers our dreams and ideas, and we are never able to follow through with our desired 'choice'. That's because it wasn't God's will.
According to the dictionary, if our will is limited by the divine will of God, then it's not free. Do you understand? And to go a step further, I believe the Bible tells us that before we come to know Christ through the free gift of faith from God's grace, our will is enslaved by sin. In other words, what we will to do is whatever the sin in us so desires. People who don't know God will never choose to do things that glorify Him. Why? Because their will is not free to do so. They are slaves to sin.
And yet, above all of this, everything we do is done according to God's counsel. Therefore, I reject the notion of 'freewill' as defined by the dictionary, because we are limited in our choices and by what we do by the divine will of our completely sovereign God.
I hope this clears things up for you. Maybe now we can be more direct towards one another, instead of talking past one another. You know, they say that most debates and miscommunications between people happen because they define a text or a set of words differently.
Z Man help me understand your two seemingly contradicting statements...
- "You falsely assume that when I say 'no control whatsoever' that it means a person is a complete vegetable."
- "It may look like we make 'choices' on a daily basis, but it's all according to God's perfect plan."
May my above comments clear this up for ya.
God will guide our steps if we let Him.
If we let Him?
If we let Him?!?!?!
Man, I had to read that twice. It's hard to believe that someone as intelligent as you, someone who is a Bible believing Christian, would ever say something like this! Not to mention it contridicts what you stated earlier:
Knight said:
[God] is God and no one can stop Him, He can bring an event to pass. If He determines that the rapture will happen on June 8th 2025 at 3PM WHO IS GONNA STOP HIM?
Emphesis mine.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths. 7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil.
Z Man, can we lean on our own understandings? And if so, what does that mean to you? Please be specific.
IMHO, to
'lean not on your own understanding' means to not rely on your human knowledge and wisdom to discern events in your life. For example, many things happen in our lives that we definitly do not understand sometimes. People get sick, have car accidents, or lose that job promotion to someone who seemed less qualified, or even lose a loved one, and on and on. And during these situations, people are quick to blame and become angry at something or someone, or even God Himself (i.e. :
Lord, why did you take away my only child!!). But Proverbs tells us to not trust in human explanations and understandings and emotions, but instead, to trust in God and in His perfect ways.