Obedience. Is obedience to God a result of salvation and not a cause of it?

[Jacob]

Can a person be obedient to God without being (already been) saved?

Is obedience the (a) result of salvation and not the cause of salvation?

What is salvation, being that it is different from a changed life that looks more obedient?

What place does obedience to God have in our lives?

Does salvation involve a true change in a person's life?

Salvation is not by works. What causes salvation? How does a person know if they have truly been saved?

 

[oatmeal]

Both

 

[Jacob]

Both

Can you explain your answer?

 

[patrick jane]

Can a person be obedient to God without being (already been) saved?

Is obedience the (a) result of salvation and not the cause of salvation?

What is salvation, being that it is different from a changed life that looks more obedient?

What place does obedience to God have in our lives?

Does salvation involve a true change in a person's life?

Salvation is not by works. What causes salvation? How does a person know if they have truly been saved?

You will know when you read Romans through Philemon and understand what Paul says. He tells us completely without a doubt in every epistle. Read it like you know it's true and understand what's for us and what isn't.

PS - obeying God is a natural result of believing the gospel and being saved, which you are.

 

[Jacob]

You will know when you read Romans through Philemon and understand what Paul says. He tells us completely without a doubt in every epistle. Read it like you know it's true and understand what's for us and what isn't.

Do you mean that you believe that some of what Paul wrote is not for us?

 

[patrick jane]

Do you mean that you believe that some of what Paul wrote is not for us?

I's all for us but not all to us. Some is to the Jews/Israel. Basically all the bad stuff that doesn't make you feel good is to the Jews :rotfl:

 

[Jacob]

I's all for us but not all to us. Some is for Jews/Israel. Basically all the bad stuff that doesn't make you feel good is for the Jews :rotfl:

I know this is a serious matter. Paul ministered to Jews and Gentiles. But I believe none of what Paul wrote is not for us. Can you see what I have said as applying to Gentiles? Jews already know much of what Paul wrote. And Paul was able to minister to Jews and Gentiles in Gentile lands.

 

[meshak]

I know this is a serious matter. Paul ministered to Jews and Gentiles. But I believe none of what Paul wrote is not for us. Can you see what I have said as applying to Gentiles? Jews already know much of what Paul wrote. And Paul was able to minister to Jews and Gentiles in Gentile lands.

You are working against Jesus if you separate salvation from obedience and faith with your preaching.

 

[Jacob]

You are working against Jesus if you separate salvation from obedience and faith with your preaching.

Do you mean faith and obedience? I believe faith either is obedience or leads to obedience.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and not of yourselves it is the gift of God. Not as a result of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

If we are justified by faith and not by works, not by the works of the Law, then that means we are saved by faith. I believe we are saved when we are justified by God, and not by our works.

In James we read a different way of looking at this that I believe does not contradict that justification and therefore salvation are the result of faith (by God's grace as Paul has said). In James we read that

James 2:22 NASB - 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

I believe it is basically saying that with true faith there is also works. So to reconcile what Paul is saying with this when he says that salvation is not by works we must admit that works accompany true faith, but that works without faith or (in other words) just works does not justify and therefore does not save.

Then are works or obedience, when done in faith, a sign of salvation or justification instead of the reason we are saved? Because we are not saved by anything we have done... we are saved by what Jesus did.

 

[Robert Pate]

Can a person be obedient to God without being (already been) saved?

Is obedience the (a) result of salvation and not the cause of salvation?

What is salvation, being that it is different from a changed life that looks more obedient?

What place does obedience to God have in our lives?

Does salvation involve a true change in a person's life?

Salvation is not by works. What causes salvation? How does a person know if they have truly been saved?

You never acknowlefge the Holy Spirit who is the Christians guide. Why is that?

Whatever comes out of the Christians life is because of the Holy Spirit.

"For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has ordained that we should walk in them" Ephesians 2:10.

It is all of God from the beginng to the end.

 

[oatmeal]

Can you explain your answer?

Yes

 

[Jacob]

You never acknowlefge the Holy Spirit who is the Christians guide. Why is that?

Whatever comes out of the Christians life is because of the Holy Spirit.

"For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has ordained that we should walk in them" Ephesians 2:10.

It is all of God from the beginng to the end.

John 16:13 NASB - 13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

To answer your question, what about when I argued that if a person does not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them they are not saved? There are many verses that led me to believe this, and the following verse is the key to understanding this.

Romans 8:9 NASB - 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

But I still want to say that no one was ever saved by the Law.

So I have the following verse to look at.

John 7:39 NASB - 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Did this last verse get fulfilled here (shortly after the resurrection)...?

John 20:22 NASB - 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

Or was it on that Pentecost day (Shavuot) after Yeshua (Jesus) ascended, and when the Spirit was poured out?

 

[Jacob]

Yes

Please explain your answer.

 

[oatmeal]

Please explain your answer.

Ok, I was being literal and exacting to your questions.

In soliciting answers, should be surprised if we get answers that exactly answer our questions? Yes or no?

Yes or no questions get yes or no answers, they are called closed end questions.

Open ended questions ask for answers that ask for more than a simple yes or no.

For instance, Is your username Untellectual. Yes or no is the only two possible answers and since your username is that, "yes" is the only necessary reply.

If I asked you "how and why did you come up with that?" then I am asking much more and could expect much more.

Limiting answers can be deceitful with the intention to harm. Ie, the question, "are you still beating your wife?" is asking for a yes or no answer, yet, since you have never beat your wife, answering the question as asked, mars your character. For if you answer no, that implies that at one time you did beat your wife, which is not honest.

So then,

to receive the gift of salvation, we must do, ie, obey Romans 10:9-10.

Then we are in a position, a spiritual position to do more obeying from the heart.

We are called to do the works that we can do because we have received salvation.

To do those works we must obey, as applicable, the rest of scripture keeping Romans 10:9-10 as the basis for the rest of our lives.

Ephesians 2:10

 

[Jacob]

Ok, I was being literal and exacting to your questions.

In soliciting answers, should be surprised if we get answers that exactly answer our questions? Yes or no?

Yes or no questions get yes or no answers, they are called closed end questions.

Open ended questions ask for answers that ask for more than a simple yes or no.

For instance, Is your username Untellectual. Yes or no is the only two possible answers and since your username is that, "yes" is the only necessary reply.

If I asked you "how and why did you come up with that?" then I am asking much more and could expect much more.

Limiting answers can be deceitful with the intention to harm. Ie, the question, "are you still beating your wife?" is asking for a yes or no answer, yet, since you have never beat your wife, answering the question as asked, mars your character. For if you answer no, that implies that at one time you did beat your wife, which is not honest.

So then,

to receive the gift of salvation, we must do, ie, obey Romans 10:9-10.

Then we are in a position, a spiritual position to do more obeying from the heart.

We are called to do the works that we can do because we have received salvation.

To do those works we must obey, as applicable, the rest of scripture keeping Romans 10:9-10 as the basis for the rest of our lives.

Ephesians 2:10

Do you agree that living by scripture involves making decisions to do what God has commanded rather than not?

What does it mean to obey the gospel?

Do you obey God in order to be saved or because you are saved? Do you obey because you are saved, out of gratitude? Do you obey because it is right? Do you obey God?

If you obey scripture can you say you obey God because scripture is the word of God?

It is possible to obey God. I don't think we should ever not obey God. I still do believe, however, that obedience follows, or is the result of, salvation... (and) not the cause of it.

 

[oatmeal]

Do you agree that living by scripture involves making decisions to do what God has commanded rather than not?

What does it mean to obey the gospel?

Do you obey God in order to be saved or because you are saved? Do you obey because you are saved, out of gratitude? Do you obey because it is right? Do you obey God?

If you obey scripture can you say you obey God because scripture is the word of God?

It is possible to obey God. I don't think we should ever not obey God. I still do believe, however, that obedience follows, or is the result of, salvation... (and) not the cause of it.

Do you agree that living by scripture involves making decisions to do what God has commanded rather than not?

Yes

What does it mean to obey the gospel?

Well, that is actually a very vague question.

Adam and Eve were given dominion over the earth, that was God's gospel (good news) to them,

but with that, a commandment of what not to do,

but they disobeyed,

thus the good news for them changed from having dominion, which they lost, to having the promise of a coming redeemer, Genesis 3:15

So then the new good news was Genesis 3:15

The good news for the children of Israel was better than the good news for Adam and Eve for as believers believed, more information about the coming redeemer was revealed to them.

Since the redeemer came and did his work and we are now redeemed, post gospel period, we have greater good news than what pre Pentecost believers had. We have the accomplished works of Jesus Christ, not even those in the gospel period (M, M, L and John) had that

So, what good news are you talking about?

I would suggest that the good news is God's record of what Jesus Christ accomplished. that is found in the all truth of Paul's epistles.

Do you obey God in order to be saved or because you are saved?

Why the repeated question?

Do you obey because you are saved, out of gratitude?

Do I always obey simply and purely out of gratitude? I would have to be perfect and pure in heart to do so. I would not make that claim for the word still exhorts that I renew my mind and put on the mind of Christ and to let the mind which was in Christ be in me. Philippians 2:5, Romans 12:1-3 .... etc. That will hold true until I John 3:2-3 comes to pass

Should we do that? Yes, that is what we should always be doing, but no one always does. Hence we have a savior from sin, the lord Jesus Christ

Some people do not touch a hot stove because it is hot and will burn them not out of love and gratitude for the one that warned them but out of desire not to be burned.

Some people obey because they are seeking a fire escape out of "hell" (the fictitious eternal torment of fire of some pagan theologies) instead of love for God and His son.

It takes a lot of growth towards maturity to love God with all our heart and soul and mind and strength.

Maybe we do that some of the time, but all of the time?

If we loved God will all our heart, soul mind and strength would we have the energy to do anything else?

No, because we used all of it to love God.

Do you obey because it is right? Do you obey God?

See above for starters.

Yes, yes.

However, do I do it all perfectly all the time? Of course not, hence the need of the savior from sin, the lord Jesus Christ

If you obey scripture can you say you obey God because scripture is the word of God?

We must believe that scripture is what it says it is, God's word, John 17:17 .. Since we have the written record of what God wants us to know and do and not do, obedience to scripture is obedience to God.

It is possible to obey God. I don't think we should ever not obey God. I still do believe, however, that obedience follows, or is the result of, salvation... (and) not the cause of it.

If you had done Romans 10:9 you would not have received the gift of salvation.

How do you define obey? A consciousness decisions to do what someone tells you to do? Did I consciously decide to do what Romans 10:9 says or did I do so because it made sense to me?

What I learned about God and Jesus Christ made sense to me, thus for me Jesus is lord and I do believe that God raised him from the dead. Thus the net effect was that I obey the truth, though there was no clear cut commandment for me to obey at that time.

Is living by the truth different in result from the strictest sense of obeying someone's commands?

There may be, but is not obeying the truth even if not given in the form of a commandment still obeying?

God is love, is there a truth there to believe and obey? I believe there is. Since God is love, we can expect that God loves us, John 3:16, therefore we can obey the truth that we can expect love from God.

Was there a commandment involved in that scenario? No, but truth was told and believed, is believing vastly different than obeying?

There is differences, ie, Pete might believe in God, but does Pete believe God, ie, believe what God says or rather had written down.

Believing in God is the first step toward believing God.

Believing in God is a good idea, but is most certainly not doing all that we could do.

Is being obedient to the concept that God is real a good idea? yes it is.

 

[Jacob]

Yes



Well, that is actually a very vague question.

Adam and Eve were given dominion over the earth, that was God's gospel (good news) to them,

but with that, a commandment of what not to do,

but they disobeyed,

thus the good news for them changed from having dominion, which they lost, to having the promise of a coming redeemer, Genesis 3:15

So then the new good news was Genesis 3:15

The good news for the children of Israel was better than the good news for Adam and Eve for as believers believed, more information about the coming redeemer was revealed to them.

Since the redeemer came and did his work and we are now redeemed, post gospel period, we have greater good news than what pre Pentecost believers had. We have the accomplished works of Jesus Christ, not even those in the gospel period (M, M, L and John) had that

So, what good news are you talking about?

I would suggest that the good news is God's record of what Jesus Christ accomplished. that is found in the all truth of Paul's epistles.



Why the repeated question?



Do I always obey simply and purely out of gratitude? I would have to be perfect and pure in heart to do so. I would not make that claim for the word still exhorts that I renew my mind and put on the mind of Christ and to let the mind which was in Christ be in me. Philippians 2:5, Romans 12:1-3 .... etc. That will hold true until I John 3:2-3 comes to pass

Should we do that? Yes, that is what we should always be doing, but no one always does. Hence we have a savior from sin, the lord Jesus Christ

Some people do not touch a hot stove because it is hot and will burn them not out of love and gratitude for the one that warned them but out of desire not to be burned.

Some people obey because they are seeking a fire escape out of "hell" (the fictitious eternal torment of fire of some pagan theologies) instead of love for God and His son.

It takes a lot of growth towards maturity to love God with all our heart and soul and mind and strength.

Maybe we do that some of the time, but all of the time?

If we loved God will all our heart, soul mind and strength would we have the energy to do anything else?

No, because we used all of it to love God.



See above for starters.

Yes, yes.

However, do I do it all perfectly all the time? Of course not, hence the need of the savior from sin, the lord Jesus Christ



We must believe that scripture is what it says it is, God's word, John 17:17 .. Since we have the written record of what God wants us to know and do and not do, obedience to scripture is obedience to God.



If you had done Romans 10:9 you would not have received the gift of salvation.

How do you define obey? A consciousness decisions to do what someone tells you to do? Did I consciously decide to do what Romans 10:9 says or did I do so because it made sense to me?

What I learned about God and Jesus Christ made sense to me, thus for me Jesus is lord and I do believe that God raised him from the dead. Thus the net effect was that I obey the truth, though there was no clear cut commandment for me to obey at that time.

Is living by the truth different in result from the strictest sense of obeying someone's commands?

There may be, but is not obeying the truth even if not given in the form of a commandment still obeying?

God is love, is there a truth there to believe and obey? I believe there is. Since God is love, we can expect that God loves us, John 3:16, therefore we can obey the truth that we can expect love from God.

Was there a commandment involved in that scenario? No, but truth was told and believed, is believing vastly different than obeying?

There is differences, ie, Pete might believe in God, but does Pete believe God, ie, believe what God says or rather had written down.

Believing in God is the first step toward believing God.

Believing in God is a good idea, but is most certainly not doing all that we could do.

Is being obedient to the concept that God is real a good idea? yes it is.

There are things we can do to be made right with God. At least, on our part. It is God who makes us right with Him in terms of our standing with and before Him. We can apologize and make things right, whether by guilt or whatnot. Then we need to obey God. To repent and believe the gospel involves that our sin debt was paid for when Christ died for us.

 

[beloved57]

Do you mean faith and obedience? I believe faith either is obedience or leads to obedience.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and not of yourselves it is the gift of God. Not as a result of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

If we are justified by faith and not by works, not by the works of the Law, then that means we are saved by faith. I believe we are saved when we are justified by God, and not by our works.

In James we read a different way of looking at this that I believe does not contradict that justification and therefore salvation are the result of faith (by God's grace as Paul has said). In James we read that

James 2:22 NASB - 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

I believe it is basically saying that with true faith there is also works. So to reconcile what Paul is saying with this when he says that salvation is not by works we must admit that works accompany true faith, but that works without faith or (in other words) just works does not justify and therefore does not save.

Then are works or obedience, when done in faith, a sign of salvation or justification instead of the reason we are saved? Because we are not saved by anything we have done... we are saved by what Jesus did.

Those Christ died for are reconciled to God and Justified by Him while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10 !

 

[Jacob]

Those Christ died for are reconciled to God and Justified by Him while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10 !

Yes. While they were they were reconciled.

 

[beloved57]

Yes. While they were they were reconciled.

So they are saved from the penalty of sin and ensured future salvation while they are enemies and unbelievers!