Nori's pick 9-23-04
- Thread starter ebenz47037
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Progenitor said it so much more eloquently than I've ever been able to. I've tried to explain this before to people. But, I didn't find the right words. I may have to "borrow" this explaination sometime. :chuckle:
The "Theistic Proofs" thread is a must-see. He's doing great in there.
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Thanks for the heads up! :thumb: I think that Progenitor is going to provide me with quite a few POTDs. :chuckle:
Go Progenitor!
ShadowMaid
New member
That was a good pick Nori. 
Great job Progenitor! :thumb:
Great job Progenitor! :thumb:
Sozo
New member
Dear Progenitor,
Please provide for us some evidence where the bible reveals that a "Christian" produces these "works", and exactly what those "works" are.
Once you have provided us with your list, then please tell us the degree of "works" that must be done in order to prove said faith. Then, if you would be so kind, also let us know who is qualified to determine whether or not those "works" are sufficient enough to accept, that particular "worker", in fellowship.
Thank you,
Sozo
Please provide for us some evidence where the bible reveals that a "Christian" produces these "works", and exactly what those "works" are.
Once you have provided us with your list, then please tell us the degree of "works" that must be done in order to prove said faith. Then, if you would be so kind, also let us know who is qualified to determine whether or not those "works" are sufficient enough to accept, that particular "worker", in fellowship.
Thank you,
Sozo
elected4ever
New member
Well, this may seem a little nit picky. but works will be produced by the Holy Spirit. What you and I call good works may not be good works at all. It is the work of the Holy Spirit in us that are good works. We do not produce we just bear what is produced. Good works are the works that the Father says are good and not what we say are good. Show me what God has done in your life not what you have done in God's name.
:e4e:
Show me what God has done in your life not what you have done in God's name.:e4e:
Originally posted by elected4ever
Well, this may seem a little nit picky. but works will be produced by the Holy Spirit. What you and I call good works may not be good works at all. It is the work of the Holy Spirit in us that are good works. We do not produce we just bear what is produced. Good works are the works that the Father says are good and not what we say are good.
:e4e:
POTD!
Sozo, I immediately understood that the original post, by saying faith+salvation = works, Progenitor was addressing the works of the Holy Spirit in the life of a Christian who allows the Spirit to work through him. With faith and salvation, we receive the Holy Spirit. I think e4e saw this as well and tightened up the definition. I guess we all read things differently. I think both e4e and Progenitor made great posts, and they are not contradictory.
Progenitor made 3 points, all valid.
1. Works are the result of a saving faith. When we have a saving faith, the Holy Spirit works through us.
2. Faith without works is dead is not to say that works are necessary for salvation, but that Works are the evidence and end result of a saving faith. If we have a saving faith, we allow the Spirit to work through us. If that doesn't happen, are we living the exchanged life you often speak of? Progenitor is specific that works do not bring salvation.
3. when a man is saved, has faith, and wishes to be more like Christ, he is inspired to do good works. When we wish to be more like Christ, this is the spirit working through us. Christ inspiring us to do good works out of love and respect and admiration for Him. Not out of wanting to prove ourselves to mankind or to earn salvation, but because we are inspired by Christ. Paul even gives Christ's relationship to the church as an example for husbands in how to love their wives. There is nothing wrong with following His example if we do it for the right reasons, and realize that we are not buying righteousness for ourselves but rather we are inspired by Him. Not following him by keeping the Law, but allowing Him to work through us and inspire us in our dealings with others.
Progenitor goes on to discuss that you can make deductions about a person's faith based on his works or absence thereof. Sozo, you and I and every other thinking Christian does this when we examine and discern the fake healers, prosperity peddlers, and the rip off artists that clothe themselves in the name of Christ, but practice satanic deceptiveness and spew lies.
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I'll be interested in seeing that. You know that I respect your opinion, Sozo. I just think that you're taking what the man said wrong. He's doesn't appear to be talking about other's perception of the Spirit working through us in that statement, (as he specified the Christian deceiving himself) but our own, and he doesn't specify a work or works--just that the Spirit does produce. I can feel the Spirit working through me, and see its fruits, even if they are not immediately evident to others.
Hopefully, Progenitor will head back to the board again soon. Based on the other points he made, I believe that he is speaking of the fruits produced by the Spirit working through a person, not a person's own works.
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Sozo,
IMHO, they do not contradict each other. I don't believe that works are required for salvation. In fact, I believe that, without God, man can do no good works at all. I've said before that salvation does not follow works, but that works follow faith and salvation. That's how I took the original post in this thread. And, e4e really nailed down what I believe with today's POTD.
Sozo
New member
Who is Lord? Who is our life? Whose works are they?
Once again, who is just in making a determination regarding the works? Who is bold enough to judge God? The bible is clear... a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. AND... a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. The issue is the tree! We are not the tree, we are the branches. The tree produces the fruit, and the branches bear it.
So then what is the fruit?
It is what you benefit from the tree: love, joy peace, etc.
The good works are something that Christ produced in you. He has made you holy, righteous , blameless, etc.
The fruit is absolute, constant, and belongs soley to God. This is why the bad fruit has no place with God. If it is an action towards others, (love, patience, kindness, etc.) it would need to be perfect. Anything less would not be love. You cannot "almost" love someone. You cannot be almost righteous, holy, etc.
Progenitor has put himself in the position of judging the works of the tree.
A faithful Christian? If there are no works or fruit, then the person in question is not a Christian of any kind. But, again, whose works or fruit are they?
"...for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."
"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them"
"But the one and the same Spirit works all of these, distributing to each one separately as he desires."
Getting to the bottom line... the whole point of contention is that the "church" has placed itself into the position of looking at each individuals behavior, comparing it to the Law, or rules and regulations of it's own fabrication, and accusing others of not living up to those standards, when they themselves would fall short of, not only the Law, but their own convoluted standards. They have become "Fruit" inspectors!
Consider Romans 2 with a slightly different audience...
Romans 2:17-29
"But if you bear the name "Christian," and rely upon the Law, and boast in God, and know His will, and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one should not steal, do you steal? You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who say one should keep the Sabbath, do you keep the Sabbath? You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? For "the name of God is blasphemed among the lost because of you," just as it is written. For indeed salvation is of value, if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your salvation has become lost. If therefore the lost man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his lostness be regarded as salvation? And will not he who is lost, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and salvation are a transgressor of the Law? For he is not a Christian who is one outwardly; neither is salvation that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Christian who is one inwardly; and salvation is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God."
If the Law or works are the outworking standard or sign of our salvation, then when the lost meet that standard, they can boast of being no different than we are. When we believe that showing others that we "have it together", "do the right works", "have enough fruit" or "keep the Law", we offer them very little hope. But, when we show them that we are all on the same level, and that everyones "good works" is as "filthy rags" and that we are totally dependent on Christ, then we give the lost, hope, because anyone can do that!
It's semantics, but those who place works in a position of judgment for proof of salvation, do in fact, make works the plumb line, and not faith.
That's fine, but who is going to be the judge of whether or not the works are good? The conservatives scream at the liberals, in this country, for wanting to control every aspect of their lives, and yet the church is full of the Democratic's mindset when it comes to evaluating each other's "good works" as they determine it.
Yes, there are works, but they are works of faith. And... there is fruit, but it is the fruit of the Holy Spirit "working" in the lives of those in which He dwells.
Sozo-
I also see what Progenitor said as the same thing e4e said. But I do agree that progeniotor should clarify and solidify what he said, because it is obvious that his words can be read differently.
Nori-
How come I never got POTD when I said the same thing? I've said it many times.
I also see what Progenitor said as the same thing e4e said. But I do agree that progeniotor should clarify and solidify what he said, because it is obvious that his words can be read differently.
Nori-
How come I never got POTD when I said the same thing? I've said it many times.
Sozo, I don't believe that Progenitor meant that the works he alluded to were anything but the fruit of the Holy Spirit working through him. Can we tell if God is working through us?--I don't believe that we are aware of His actions through us all of the time because we are distracted by our human flesh nature, but sometimes I am darn sure aware of the Spirit's work because I'm not a nice enough person to do some of the things I have seen the Spirit do when I allow Him to lead. Which unfortunately, isn't all of the time.
Until Progenitor returns, part of this argument is about something we cannot know--exactly what he meant.
I reject quite a few things as "good works." Only God does know for sure what He has done or not done in another, but we are told to judge, and judge rightly.
If a man tells me that God told Him to torture, rape, and murder some people, roast them in a 350 degree oven, and serve them at the next missionary society meeting because they were possessed by Satan and the demon Barney, I damn well can judge whether those works are good or not and whether or not that is the fruit of the Holy Spirit. I don't have to dig through Leviticus to come up with a reason.
God expects me to listen to the Spirit, and judge rightly that evil perverse acts are not the fruits of the Spirit. He wants me to see and recognize His Spirit working in others, as I do when I read some of the things that you, e4e, lighthouse, and many others post here. Why would He have included discernment of good fruit from bad in His scriptures if He didn't want us to judge works? It wouldn't make sense--"Here's how to do what I don't want you to do."
God understands that I will fail to judge and understand works correctly at times, because He knows how far short of perfection I fall, and that I don't always listen for His Spirit because I am too tied up in things of the flesh.
But if I don't judge works to be of the Spirit or not, then I'm like a nitwit who stands by and watches a man kill an innocent and thinks, "Hmmm--who am I to judge whether a work is good or not? Maybe this is the fruit of the Spirit. It doesn't seem to be, but remember, judge not."
I don't need to check the Law to see if that's right or not. And I'm not judging God, I'm judging a work.
Until Progenitor returns, part of this argument is about something we cannot know--exactly what he meant.
I reject quite a few things as "good works." Only God does know for sure what He has done or not done in another, but we are told to judge, and judge rightly.
If a man tells me that God told Him to torture, rape, and murder some people, roast them in a 350 degree oven, and serve them at the next missionary society meeting because they were possessed by Satan and the demon Barney, I damn well can judge whether those works are good or not and whether or not that is the fruit of the Holy Spirit. I don't have to dig through Leviticus to come up with a reason.
God expects me to listen to the Spirit, and judge rightly that evil perverse acts are not the fruits of the Spirit. He wants me to see and recognize His Spirit working in others, as I do when I read some of the things that you, e4e, lighthouse, and many others post here. Why would He have included discernment of good fruit from bad in His scriptures if He didn't want us to judge works? It wouldn't make sense--"Here's how to do what I don't want you to do."
God understands that I will fail to judge and understand works correctly at times, because He knows how far short of perfection I fall, and that I don't always listen for His Spirit because I am too tied up in things of the flesh.
But if I don't judge works to be of the Spirit or not, then I'm like a nitwit who stands by and watches a man kill an innocent and thinks, "Hmmm--who am I to judge whether a work is good or not? Maybe this is the fruit of the Spirit. It doesn't seem to be, but remember, judge not."
I don't need to check the Law to see if that's right or not. And I'm not judging God, I'm judging a work.
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