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Noah's Ark & post-flood speciation

User Name

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According to Genesis 6:19-20, Noah was instructed to take male and female pairs of every "kind" of animal that walked the face of the earth. Several questions came to my mind about this, and I am wondering how those who take this story at its literal face value can answer them:

1) How many different "kinds" of animals do you estimate were taken aboard Noah's ark?

2) How many different species do scientists estimate to exist today?

3) How many species are believed to have existed throughout the entirety of earth's existence?

Thanks in advance to anyone who offers answers to these questions!
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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1) How many different "kinds" of animals do you estimate were taken aboard Noah's ark?

2) How many different species do scientists estimate to exist today?

3) How many species are believed to have existed throughout the entirety of earth's existence?

Thanks in advance to anyone who offers answers to these questions!

1. The answer is in the text. The number is not relevant.

2. Not relevant.

3. Not relevant.

And by not relevant, I am referring to your attempt to discredit the Holy words of God in the Bible.
 

User Name

Greatest poster ever
Banned
Thanks for your answers to those questions, Nick. :up:

If anyone else would like to participate, I would appreciate it!
 

User Name

Greatest poster ever
Banned
1. The answer is in the text. The number is not relevant.

2. Not relevant.

3. Not relevant.

And by not relevant, I am referring to your attempt to discredit the Holy words of God in the Bible.

Thanks for your answers to those questions, Nick. :up:

If anyone else would like to participate, I would appreciate it!
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
According to Genesis 6:19-20, Noah was instructed to take male and female pairs of every "kind" of animal that walked the face of the earth. Several questions came to my mind about this, and I am wondering how those who take this story at its literal face value can answer them:

1) How many different "kinds" of animals do you estimate were taken aboard Noah's ark?
Not too many since I think the flood was local. It was mostly focused on saving domestic animals as evidenced by taking seven of each.

2) How many different species do scientists estimate to exist today?
About two million have been described by science. There's estimated to be up to 10 million. Of course that includes a lot of microorganisms.

But on the earth today there are approximately:
300,000 species of flowering plants.
5000 species of mammals
10,000 species of birds
8,000 species of reptiles
30,000 species of fish
950,000 species of insects

3) How many species are believed to have existed throughout the entirety of earth's existence?
Estimated run up to 5 billion species have ever existed.

But when we look at diversity - the current number of species is larger than at any time in the past. But most of the species in the past are not the same species alive today.

nw0287-nn.jpg

burgess_community_sm.jpg
 

Yorzhik

Well-known member
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According to Genesis 6:19-20, Noah was instructed to take male and female pairs of every "kind" of animal that walked the face of the earth. Several questions came to my mind about this, and I am wondering how those who take this story at its literal face value can answer them:

1) How many different "kinds" of animals do you estimate were taken aboard Noah's ark?

2) How many different species do scientists estimate to exist today?

3) How many species are believed to have existed throughout the entirety of earth's existence?

Thanks in advance to anyone who offers answers to these questions!
1. Most of them. Whatever a ship of that size could carry.

2. Scientists do not know what a species is, so they have no clue.

3. Given (2.), this is even more remote.

All this to give you comfort that your decision to reject God's word is a good choice. Given (2.) and (3.) a rational person would worry about their position even on a scientific level, but I'm sure you will feel emboldened instead.
 

User Name

Greatest poster ever
Banned
How many different "kinds" of animals do you estimate were taken aboard Noah's ark?

Most of them. Whatever a ship of that size could carry.

According to Answers in Genesis (who are building a replica of the ark), there were approximately 8,000 "kinds" which Noah took aboard the ark.

How many different species do scientists estimate to exist today?

Scientists do not know what a species is, so they have no clue.

I'm willing to accept this definition:
A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms where two hybrids are capable of reproducing fertile offspring, typically using sexual reproduction.​
If Noah took 8,000 "kinds" of animals aboard the ark, how is it that we have an estimated 6.5 million species of terrestrial animals in existence today? Did 8,000 kinds of animals from Noah's ark branch out into 6.5 million species over the course of 4,500 years?

How many species are believed to have existed throughout the entirety of earth's existence?

Given (2.), this is even more remote.

As I mentioned above, the latest estimate for the number of extant terrestrial species is 6.5 million. However, most species that have existed on the earth are now extinct. The present figure of 6.5 million extant land species is thought to represent only 1 percent of the total number of species that have existed throughout earth's history. This means that upwards of 650 million land species have existed or are existing on earth.
 

6days

New member
It was plenty of room

It was plenty of room

"For the sake of realism, imagine waiting at a railroad crossing while ten freight trains, each pulling 52 boxcars, move slowly by, one after another. That is how much space was available in the Ark, for its capacity was equivalent to 520 modern railroad stock cars. A barge of such gigantic size, with its thousands of built-in compartments (Gen. 6:14) would have been sufficiently large to carry two of every species of air-breathing animal in the world today (and doubtless the tendency toward taxonomic splitting has produced more “species” than can be justified in terms of Genesis “kinds”) on only half of its available deck space. The remaining space would have been occupied by Noah’s family, five additional representatives of each of the comparatively few kinds of animals acceptable for sacrifice, two each of the kinds that have become extinct since the Flood, and food for them all (Gen. 6:21) [1973, p. 23, emp. in orig.].

Whitcomb and Morris investigated the numbers of animals that would have been on the ark (using the highest possible estimates, and taxonomic figures provided by evolutionists), and showed that the biblical account can fit known scientific facts regarding these matters (1961, pp. 65-69). Their book, The Genesis Flood, was published in 1961. Thirty-five years later, John Woodmorappe expanded on their work, and produced what is likely the most exhaustive, well-researched feasibility study ever put into print dealing specifically with the ark’s construction and contents (1996). His data-based conclusions established beyond any doubt that the ark could do what it was designed to do. Since God was the Creator of all the animals, does it not make sense that He would know precisely how much room was needed for them on the ark?"
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=1413
 

User Name

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Banned
John Woodmorappe expanded on their work, and produced what is likely the most exhaustive, well-researched feasibility study ever put into print dealing specifically with the ark’s construction and contents (1996). His data-based conclusions established beyond any doubt that the ark could do what it was designed to do. Since God was the Creator of all the animals, does it not make sense that He would know precisely how much room was needed for them on the ark?"
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=1413

"Woodmorappe attacks the problems of the ark in a systematic fashion. He begins by calculating how many animals were on the ark. Woodmorappe uses the genera as the equivalent of the created kind. Taking one pair from each genera, living and fossil, he lists 7,428 mammals, 4,602 birds and 3,724 reptiles on the ark." -- http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/woodmorappe-review.html

One difficulty with this claim is that according to Genesis 7:2-3, Noah was instructed to take 7 pairs of every clean animal, and 1 pair of unclean animals.

Going by Woodmorappe's estimate, there were 15,754 "kinds" of animals on the ark. So how do we get to an estimated 6.5 million terrestrial species today? Also, how do we account for all of the extinct species, whose numbers are estimated to be in the hundreds of millions?
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
If Noah took 8,000 "kinds" of animals aboard the ark, how is it that we have an estimated 6.5 million species of terrestrial animals in existence today? Did 8,000 kinds of animals from Noah's ark branch out into 6.5 million species over the course of 4,500 years?

Have you noticed that speciation is related mainly to generation time and number of offspring per generation? (there are other factors)

For humans, this averages around 25 years for 3-4 offspring.
For fruit flies, it is around 12 days for 400 offspring.

There is still only one species of human and over 5000 species of fruit flies.

Additionally, if the Bible is accurate (and I believe it is), the kinds taken on the Ark had a much greater potential for variation than the diluted versions of today. Technically, one generation is all that is needed to produce a new species.
 

User Name

Greatest poster ever
Banned
Technically, one generation is all that is needed to produce a new species.

Let's run the math. I'll use Woodmorappe's estimate of 15,754 "kinds" of animals on the ark, and the estimate of 6.5 million land species existing today. Also, let's assume that the Flood occurred 4,500 years ago. Based on these numbers, an average of 4 new species would have had to have been bred into existence every day over the past 4,500 years for us to get to the present estimate of 6.5 million extant terrestrial species (assuming my math is correct, which it may not be). Furthermore, this does not even begin to take into account the hundreds of millions of species that are now extinct.
 

6days

New member
Going by Woodmorappe's estimate, there were 15,754 "kinds" of animals on the ark. So how do we get to an estimated 6.5 million terrestrial species today? Also, how do we account for all of the extinct species, whose numbers are estimated to be in the hundreds of millions?
Not a problem since God tells us it happened.
Also, you might have noticed threads here in the past that the creationist model is rapid adaptation.
As a Christian...you should be interested in the harmony between scripture and science, rather than trying to find things to disagree with.
Yes the ark was big enough.....
Yes there is enough water to cover the world as described in the Bible.
Yes Christ was born of a virgin.
Yes Christ resurrected from the dead on the third day... ETC
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
According to Genesis 6:19-20, Noah was instructed to take male and female pairs of every "kind" of animal that walked the face of the earth. Several questions came to my mind about this, and I am wondering how those who take this story at its literal face value can answer them:

1) How many different "kinds" of animals do you estimate were taken aboard Noah's ark?

2) How many different species do scientists estimate to exist today?

3) How many species are believed to have existed throughout the entirety of earth's existence?

Thanks in advance to anyone who offers answers to these questions!
1. The answer is in the text. The number is not relevant.

2. Not relevant.

3. Not relevant.

And by not relevant, I am referring to your attempt to discredit the Holy words of God in the Bible.
 

User Name

Greatest poster ever
Banned
1. The answer is in the text. The number is not relevant.

2. Not relevant.

3. Not relevant.

And by not relevant, I am referring to your attempt to discredit the Holy words of God in the Bible.

Thanks for your answers to those questions, Nick. :up:

If anyone else would like to participate, I would appreciate it!
 
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