My Problem with Creation Science

[Trump Gurl]

Science is science, the systematic study of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

The Bible is the Bible, writings inspired by the Holy Spirit to explain why God created the all things, why He created man in his own image, and the ultimate destiny of man.

They mix like Oil and Vinegar, and those who mix them are often led down rabbit holes of the most insane theories.

A quote:

159 Faith and science: “Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth.” “Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are.”​

​

283 The question about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator, prompting us to give him thanks for all his works and for the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers. With Solomon they can say: “It is he who gave me unerring knowledge of what exists, to know the structure of the world and the activity of the elements. . . for wisdom, the fashioner of all things, taught me.”​

​

284 The great interest accorded to these studies is strongly stimulated by a question of another order, which goes beyond the proper domain of the natural sciences. It is not only a question of knowing when and how the universe arose physically, or when man appeared, but rather of discovering the meaning of such an origin: is the universe governed by chance, blind fate, anonymous necessity, or by a transcendent, intelligent and good Being called “God”? And if the world does come from God’s wisdom and goodness, why is there evil? Where does it come from? Who is responsible for it? Is there any liberation from it?​

Source Link

Some things go beyond the proper domain of the natural sciences, as was quoted. The Bible is not a science book and was never intended to be, despite the claims of some that it is. It does not lay out facts and figures in nice orderly verifiable ways like science books does. It is a spiritual work, written in the literary style of the human author, and inspired by the Holy Spirit to deliver a certain truth.

The Holy Spirit teaches us Faith and things of the Spirit. That is what we should look for from the Bible. We should not be looking to the Bible to figure out precise dates and timelines and so forth.

 

[Caino]

The problem is the claim that God wrote the Bible and that it's infallible. If that were true then there is no debate with scientific observations of the earth, physics, math etc.

 

[Trump Gurl]

The problem is the claim that God wrote the Bible and that it's infallible. If that were true then there is no debate with scientific observations of the earth, physics, math etc.

I think you have over simplified the "authentic" Christian position, which obviously does not include the position of the fundamentalist nutters.

God, as in the Holy Spirit, "inspired" the scriptures. The RE infallible in that they convey exactly what God intended to teach, without error.

The problem comes in with man's interpretation of the scriptures. Man is always the problem

In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.​

One problem is that a lot of people here are trying to say things that God was NOT trying to say or to address.

In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."​

Most people never try to do that either.

I suggest you read this page, where I got the quotes from: LINK

 

[Stripe]

They mix like Oil and Vinegar, and those who mix them are often led down rabbit holes of the most insane theories.

Because you say so?

The Bible is not a science book.

What does this mean?

It does not lay out facts and figures in nice orderly verifiable ways like science books do.

Have you ever read a science book?

We should not be looking to the Bible to figure out precise dates and timelines and so forth.

Because you say so?

 

[Caino]

The scriptures were written as if they meant what they said and said what they meant. If young earth creationism isn't accurate then its the scripture that is misleading people not the observations of science.

 

[Trump Gurl]

Because you say so?

I don't respond to that kind of snotty childish remark.

 

[Trump Gurl]

The scriptures were written as if they meant what they said and said what they meant

They were written as man can understand. The first scriptures were written around 3,000 years ago. Remember, one must understand exactly what it was that God was trying to say. God was not a science teacher giving a science lesson. He was trying to tell people that He created all things, he created man in his own image, that man sinned, and he is giving people the chance to return to a right relationship with him.

If young earth creationism isn't accurate then its the scripture that is misleading people not the observations of science.

You are not listening.

In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."

 

[Stripe]

I don't respond to that kind of snotty childish remark.

Bang-up job you're doing not responding. :chuckle:

 

[Caino]

They were written as man can understand. The first scriptures were written around 3,000 years ago. Remember, one must understand exactly what it was that God was trying to say. God was not a science teacher giving a science lesson. He was trying to tell people that He created all things, he created man in his own image, ta man sinned, and he is giving people the chance to return to a right relationship with him.



You are not listening.

In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."

The conditions of the time that the Hebrew priest wrote the scriptures for an Israelite audience was one of complete ignorance about the origins of life, the age of the earth as well as the fact that in the future we would figure out that they were guessing.

The authors of the scriptures were human, they conveyed what they wanted to convey. God wasn't dictating what to say in ANY form. They wrote as if God were speaking in order to control the masses. Like the wizard of OZ hiding behind the curtain. Preachers often preach as if they are inspired.

 

[Trump Gurl]

The conditions of the time that the Hebrew priest wrote the scriptures for an Israelite audience was one of complete ignorance about the origins of life, the age of the earth . . . .

That's right, and that only illustrates my point.

. . . as well as the fact that in the future we would figure out that they were guessing. . .

No, because the age of the earth is not what Genesis is meant to teach. I say again: "God was not a science teacher giving a science lesson. He was trying to tell people that He created all things, he created man in his own image, that man sinned, and he is giving people the chance to return to a right relationship with him."

. . . . The authors of the scriptures were human, they conveyed what they wanted to convey. God wasn't dictating what to say in ANY form. . . .

Again, that is not correct. The authors of the scriptures were human and they conveyed what GOD wanted to convey, but they did so in a human way. And while God wasn't "dictating" like to a secretary, he was "inspiring" which is an entirely different thing.

Dei verbum, #11:

Those divinely revealed realities which are contained and presented in Sacred Scripture have been committed to writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For holy mother Church, relying on the belief of the Apostles (see John 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:19-20, 3:15-16), holds that the books of both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, with all their parts, are sacred and canonical because written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself. In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted.

Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation. Therefore “all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind” (2 Tim. 3:16-17).

. . . . . They wrote as if God were speaking in order to control the masses. Like the wizard of OZ hiding behind the curtain. . . . .

I wish I had seen that rude childish crap first. I would not have wasted my time giving you an informative answer. I am done with you.

 

[Right Divider]

Science is science, the systematic study of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

So science can ONLY study the physical world? Please give some proof of that.

The Bible is the Bible, writings inspired by the Holy Spirit to explain why God created the all things, why He created man in his own image, and the ultimate destiny of man.

So there is no "science" in the Bible?

They mix like Oil and Vinegar, and those who mix them are often led down rabbit holes of the most insane theories.

Only for people that are confused about what science actually means.

 

[Trump Gurl]

So . . . .

So I am not engaging you in any conversation. You have already demonstrated that you cannot discuss things in a fair way.

 

[Right Divider]

So I am not engaging you in any conversation. You have already demonstrated that you cannot discuss things in a fair way.

You are wrong... as usual.

You claim to be a "believer" and yet you reject the simple facts of the Bible.

You are a poser.

 

[Stripe]

This chick sure does have a lot of people she will not talk to ...

 

[Trump Gurl]

Nothing I read in this thread demonstrates that my post is wrong.

Science is science, the systematic study of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

The Bible is the Bible, writings inspired by the Holy Spirit to explain why God created the all things, why He created man in his own image, and the ultimate destiny of man.

They mix like Oil and Vinegar, and those who mix them are often led down rabbit holes of the most insane theories.

A quote:

159 Faith and science: “Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth.” “Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are.”​

​

283 The question about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator, prompting us to give him thanks for all his works and for the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers. With Solomon they can say: “It is he who gave me unerring knowledge of what exists, to know the structure of the world and the activity of the elements. . . for wisdom, the fashioner of all things, taught me.”​

​

284 The great interest accorded to these studies is strongly stimulated by a question of another order, which goes beyond the proper domain of the natural sciences. It is not only a question of knowing when and how the universe arose physically, or when man appeared, but rather of discovering the meaning of such an origin: is the universe governed by chance, blind fate, anonymous necessity, or by a transcendent, intelligent and good Being called “God”? And if the world does come from God’s wisdom and goodness, why is there evil? Where does it come from? Who is responsible for it? Is there any liberation from it?​

Source Link

Some things go beyond the proper domain of the natural sciences, as was quoted. The Bible is not a science book and was never intended to be, despite the claims of some that it is. It does not lay out facts and figures in nice orderly verifiable ways like science books does. It is a spiritual work, written in the literary style of the human author, and inspired by the Holy Spirit to deliver a certain truth.

The Holy Spirit teaches us Faith and things of the Spirit. That is what we should look for from the Bible. We should not be looking to the Bible to figure out precise dates and timelines and so forth.

 

[Stripe]

Nothing I read in this thread demonstrates that my post is wrong.

You should keep believing it then.

 

[Clete]

So, it seems that Trump Girl's point with this thread is that we should all be fine with it if it turns out that bible is proven to be in contradiction to the scientific facts of reality.

Notice the implied preference for science over the scripture.

It's fine to discard anything the bible says that is in conflict with science because "it isn't a science book" but there's no mention at all of even questioning science on the basis of scriptural truth. The compromise is always in the direction away from the scripture and toward whatever science says.

The problem of course is that science is constantly being proven false. Even scientists will proudly tell you that the process of science is all about attempting to prove the current theory false and that would be a great way for science to proceed if they ever permitted anything to falsify their favorite theories, which they never do. In other words, the science that TG tacitly prefers over the word of God isn't actually science. It's just another worldview that is believed in (i.e. by faith) by people who hate God.

At bottom, the error TG is making is to imply that there is more than one kind of truth. There isn't. There are different topics to be sure but truth is truth and all truths are compatible with each other. There simply is no such thing as two truths that contradict each other. Real science, the rigorous and systematic application of logic to the world around us, yields truth claims as does theology (the logos of the theos - the logic of God). The quality of the truth claims from each result from one's ability to understand the issues being studied. One can make an error at any point in the process and if one truth claim contradicts the other then at least one of them is false. This is the nature of reality. To deny it is to live one's life with their head buried in sand.

Clete

 

[Right Divider]

The problem of course is that science is constantly being proven false. Even scientists will proudly tell you that the process of science is all about attempting to prove the current theory false and that would be a great way for science to proceed if they ever permitted anything to falsify their favorite theories, which they never do. In other words, the science that TG tacitly prefers over the word of God isn't actually science. It's just another worldview that is believe in (i.e. by faith) by people who hate God.

Yes! It's almost surprising that so many people that call themselves Christians fall for this alternative world-view.

 

[Trump Gurl]

So, it seems that Trump Girl's point with this thread is that we should all be fine with it if it turns out that bible is proven to be in contradiction to the scientific facts of reality.

I never said that and it is very disingenuous of you to put those word in my mouth. That sounds like something a CNN reporter would do to Trump, twist his words.

I believe that the Bible is true and inspired by God. So there is your starting point.

Now, having said that I also believe this is true:

In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.​

In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression." source​

So, the Bible is true, but as we know from many colorful things is the Psalms and in Revelation, not every word is to be taken literally. In one Psalm God has "wings". Well, we know that He does not actually have physical wings. The books were written over a span of a thousand years and they include different styles from different authors in different times.

I think that is a fair thing to say,

So, what is God really trying to say to me? Does he want me to know the exact number of years from Adam to Jesus? I don't think so. Such knowledge does not help me lead a Godly life in the slightest.
. . . Does he want me to know that he created all things, the heavens and the earth, and that He created man in his own image? Yes, I believe he does. Does He want me to know that man fell due to sin, and that he wants me to get back into a right relationship with him by being born again in Christ? YES, he does!

So, I have gleaned that which God really wants me to know. The other tangential stuff has no bearing on my salvation.

So what did I say at the top? I believe that the Bible is true and inspired by God. I also believe I have learned the truths that God expected me to get from it.

Have you? You falsely accused a sister in Christ. Are you sorry for that? If not then I propose that you have some learning to do.

 

[Clete]

I never said that and it is very disingenuous of you to put those word in my mouth. That sounds like something a CNN reporter would do to Trump, twist his words.

There was no twisting of words. I reacted to the issues that your statement implies and that are the only issues that could possibly be the basis for such a statement.

Your insesant whining about being procecuted by anyone who posts a syllable in disagreement with you is wearing rather thin. You need to grow a thicker skin or get another hobby. This place isn't worth that much stress.

Now, that is not to say that you were aware of those implications. In fact, I'd bet you weren't. That isn't the way you think and that's fine but when you put such statements out on a theology forum where the whole purpose is to explore, discuss and critique the theological implication of what people post, you can't get all offended when people do what this website exists for.

I believe that the Bible is true and inspired by God. So there is your starting point.

Now, having said that I also believe this is true:

In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.​

In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression." source​

​

Whether you state it yourself or you quote someone else saying it, when you make that point in order to contrast science with what the bible teaches is to imply that you're A-Okay with the bible being shown to be in contradiction to science.

Which, by the way, it isn't! Three is exactly zero reason to even state anything about the fact that the bible isn't a science book unless you are proceeding from the premise that science has proven something that the bible teaches is false! The implication is that you accept that the Earth is billions of years old, that the dinosaurs existed millions of years before humans existed, that there may or may not have been a truly global flood, that it took more than six days for God to create the universe, etc, etc, etc.

So, the Bible is true, but as we know from many colorful things is the Psalms and in Revelation, not every word is to be taken literally. In one Psalm God has "wings". Well, we know that He does not actually have physical wings. The books were written over a span of a thousand years and they include different styles from different authors in different times.

I think that is a fair thing to say,

"Fair" isn't the right word, "obvious" is the word you're looking for. There isn't any book of any complexity - not one single solitary book - ever written in any language on any topic where "every word is to be taken literally". There are figures of speech on every single page of the bible just as there is on practically every page of every book ever written. Some passages are written with more precision than others and intentionally so and, of course, one should endeavor to understand those passages in accordance with the manner in which they were written. As with any other book, context is everything when understanding scripture.

However, having said that, it is not acceptable to take this obvious truth and stretch to say that the bible may say things that are demonstrably false. The fact is that the bible explicitly teaches that the universe was created in six days. Those passages are not poetry nor some sort of veiled figure of speech. They are plainly stated passages that don't require anything to understand other than to read them. The bible also and totally undeniably teaches that the human race began with two and only two people. It teaches that Noah's flood was global in scope and that it was accompanied by 40 straight days and nights of rain that wiped out every single man, woman and child on the planet save Noah himself and seven other members of his family.

If science PROVES any one of those things false (there are many others) then the bible itself is falsified precisely because the bible itself claims to be inspired of God, a point which you affirmed a moment ago.

And so, yes, it is true that the bible is not a science text book but it is also true that the bible claims to be the inerrant word of God and while there are many different modes of writing found in the bible, none of them are compatible with outright falsehood, whether scientifically discovered or otherwise.

So, what is God really trying to say to me? Does he want me to know the exact number of years from Adam to Jesus? I don't think so. Such knowledge does not help me lead a Godly life in the slightest.

I disagree!

The accuracy of the bible's historical accounts have only ever been verified. Never have they ever been demonstrated to be false - never! Biblical archeologists always reject the biblical account as fair tales and spend their entire careers trying to disprove the bible and they never succeed in doing so. No biblical archeologists believed that David existed until they found proof that he did. None of them believed that Nineveh existed until they found it. They all believed that Sodom was a myth until it was found. There have been examples found of every single form of money mentioned in the bible (unlike the book of Mormon for example) etc, etc, etc. All of which testifies to the veracity of the bible and lends strength to one faith by teaching us that God's word, and by implication God Himself, can be trusted implicitly!

More to the specific point, there is exactly zero reason to believe that the genealogies of Jesus aren't completely accurate. In fact, you'd better hope they are because His occupation of the office of Messiah is predicated on it.

. . . Does he want me to know that he created all things, the heavens and the earth, and that He created man in his own image? Yes, I believe he does. Does He want me to know that man fell due to sin, and that he wants me to get back into a right relationship with him by being born again in Christ? YES, he does!

So, I have gleaned that which God really wants me to know. The other tangential stuff has no bearing on my salvation.

So what did I say at the top? I believe that the Bible is true and inspired by God. I also believe I have learned the truths that God expected me to get from it.

Have you? You falsely accused a sister in Christ. Are you sorry for that? If not then I propose that you have some learning to do.

Again, I am not accusing you of anything except perhaps of sloppy thinking and perhaps simple ignorance of what the implications are of the things you say.

You are not the only person on the planet. You are not the only human being that has ever read the bible. And while what you call "tangential stuff" doesn't seem to matter to you, they may matter a very great deal to someone else. You might think it shouldn't matter to anyone any more than it does to you but that isn't for you to say.

More than that, what exactly is it that you think is accomplished by adopting a position that has as its express purpose to build imprecision into the scripture? Why do that? Where would be the need to build a fudge factor into the scripture that you acknowledge is inspired by God?

What motive could there possibly be other than that you believe that the bible and science are at odds with one another?

And I'm telling you that your default toward building the fudge factor into the bible rather than into the claims of popular science says more about you than it does about either the bible or science. You're on a slippery slope that will land you in the muck and mire of situational ethics and moral relativism.

Clete