My Letter to the Elders at my chuch'

intojoy

intojoy

BANNED
Banned
Grace vs Law?
Never.

Falling from Grace?
By returning to the Mosaic Law as a means of spiritual maturity and or spiritual sanctification.

Gen 1-11 had the rule of life for saved people before Abraham and even Abraham followed these laws of God, ordinances of God Gen 26:5. The promise of God was made to Abraham and later the Mosaic Law was added to the promise but it did not take precedent over the promise nor did it replace the promise.

What was the purpose of the Law?

The Law was never ever a way of salvation.

The Law was given to make an increase of sin, to reveal sin to augment sin.

The Law was given to as a child tutor to lead the Israelite to his need for Messiah.

The Law was given as a rule of life for the already saved man covering every aspect of his life.

The Law was not given to Gentiles.

The Law could not produce a mature sanctified life because it was weak in that the flesh uses the law to rebel.

The Law was not given to produce godliness in the Old Testament saints (it could not because it was weak thru the flesh).

What is the believers rule of life today?

The Law of Liberty called that because we have been set free from the Law of Moses.

The Law of Christ - every commandment given in the New Testament hundreds of them.

Please keep in your mind that just as the Law of Moses was not given for salvation but as a rule of life for saved men, the Law of Christ has not been given for salvation but as our rule of life. Furthermore, a distinction is that with the law of Christ the believer today has been given divine enablement thru the Holy Spirit and in contradistinction with the Law of Moses which could not produce spiritual maturity, the Law of Christ does produce spiritual maturity as taught by Paul who exhorts us to put on Christ as a garment - (the metaphor being the adult Toga given by the Father to the child signifying adulthood). In other words the Law of Moses kept the Old Testament saints in a state of spiritual immaturity but we now can reach spiritual adulthood.

To return to using the Law of Moses as a means of sanctification or to gain spirituality is as Paul says to "fall from grace". Because the Law of Moses operates on the basis of works, faith operates on the basis of grace living, appropriating grace daily. Hebrews says that Yeshua cannot be our high priest according to the Law of Moses because He is from Judah not Levi - the entire Law of Moses has been rendered inoperative as a rule of life for us. It can be used to teach lessons about God and parts of it are optional for us to observe such as the feasts but we are forbidden to make any of it mandatory and we cannot teach the flock of Yeshua that they will attain spirituality by means of observing Mosaic Law, to do so is an error and be tokens unworthy scholarship and is the evidence of a low view of one's value of Yeshua's death.

Please do not move into a Torah observant messianic vein. It is wood hay and stubble brother.

Your Friend,

Tui
 
D

daqq

Well-known member
intojoy said:
Grace vs Law?
Never.

Falling from Grace?
By returning to the Mosaic Law as a means of spiritual maturity and or spiritual sanctification.

Gen 1-11 had the rule of life for saved people before Abraham and even Abraham followed these laws of God, ordinances of God Gen 26:5. The promise of God was made to Abraham and later the Mosaic Law was added to the promise but it did not take precedent over the promise nor did it replace the promise.

What was the purpose of the Law?

The Law was never ever a way of salvation.

The Law was given to make an increase of sin, to reveal sin to augment sin.

The Law was given to as a child tutor to lead the Israelite to his need for Messiah.

The Law was given as a rule of life for the already saved man covering every aspect of his life.

The Law was not given to Gentiles.

The Law could not produce a mature sanctified life because it was weak in that the flesh uses the law to rebel.

The Law was not given to produce godliness in the Old Testament saints (it could not because it was weak thru the flesh).

What is the believers rule of life today?

The Law of Liberty called that because we have been set free from the Law of Moses.

The Law of Christ - every commandment given in the New Testament hundreds of them.

Please keep in your mind that just as the Law of Moses was not given for salvation but as a rule of life for saved men, the Law of Christ has not been given for salvation but as our rule of life. Furthermore, a distinction is that with the law of Christ the believer today has been given divine enablement thru the Holy Spirit and in contradistinction with the Law of Moses which could not produce spiritual maturity, the Law of Christ does produce spiritual maturity as taught by Paul who exhorts us to put on Christ as a garment - (the metaphor being the adult Toga given by the Father to the child signifying adulthood). In other words the Law of Moses kept the Old Testament saints in a state of spiritual immaturity but we now can reach spiritual adulthood.

To return to using the Law of Moses as a means of sanctification or to gain spirituality is as Paul says to "fall from grace". Because the Law of Moses operates on the basis of works, faith operates on the basis of grace living, appropriating grace daily. Hebrews says that Yeshua cannot be our high priest according to the Law of Moses because He is from Judah not Levi - the entire Law of Moses has been rendered inoperative as a rule of life for us. It can be used to teach lessons about God and parts of it are optional for us to observe such as the feasts but we are forbidden to make any of it mandatory and we cannot teach the flock of Yeshua that they will attain spirituality by means of observing Mosaic Law, to do so is an error and be tokens unworthy scholarship and is the evidence of a low view of one's value of Yeshua's death.

Please do not move into a Torah observant messianic vein. It is wood hay and stubble brother.

Your Friend,

Tui
Click to expand...

The law of liberty leaves you and your teacher Dr. Fruchtenbaum no reason to even want to "render the Torah inoperative", (as your teacher likewise says). If only you understood the law of liberty you and your teacher would much better understand the writings of Paul. James it is who speaks of the law of liberty; and where he does, he clearly speaks of the words of Messiah to his talmidim when they asked him to teach them how to pray:

James 1:21-25 KJV
21. Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24. For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:8-13 KJV
8. If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9. But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

This is clearly the law of liberty according to James: He who shows no mercy shall have judgment without mercy; but mercy shall triumph-rejoice against judgment. This is exactly what Yeshua is teaching his talmidim when they ask him how to pray:

Matthew 6:9-15 KJV
9. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11. Give us this day our daily bread.
12. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

This is the law of liberty of which James speaks, for if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will forgive you: but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your heavenly Father forgive you. PERIOD. There is nothing to be added to this if you are a disciple of Yeshua. It says what it says. Yeshua also speaks of this same teaching again with a full parable:

Matthew 18:21-35 KJV
21. Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22. Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33. Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34. And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

There is no escaping the meaning and intent of this parable. In addition Messiah Yeshua is the Memra-Logos-Word: and in the time when these things were spoken there was no "new testament" but only the TaNaK. Therefore your doctrine renders Messiah the Word entirely inoperative because the Son is the Word of the Father and that certainly begins with Torah.

Luke 1:67-75 KJV
67. And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68. Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69. And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70. As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71. That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72. To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73. The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74. That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75. In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

I have no reason to fear wading deep into the pure waters of Torah so long as I forgive others their debts and trespasses against me. My reasoning is not to obey Torah for righteousness but to be pleasing to my heavenly Father and walk in the Way in which He has prescribed for me through His holy Word as viewed through the "lenses" of the Testimony of Yeshua given him from the Father above without measure, (which Testimony Yeshua paid for with his own blood to cleanse us). Torah is Spirit and only understood through the Testimony of Yeshua. You and your teacher actually have no legitimate reason to "render Torah inoperative" as you say. Hope you do not still have me on ignore, ehem, brother. :)
 
Zeke

Zeke

Well-known member
daqq said:
The law of liberty leaves you and your teacher Dr. Fruchtenbaum no reason to even want to "render the Torah inoperative", (as your teacher likewise says). If only you understood the law of liberty you and your teacher would much better understand the writings of Paul. James it is who speaks of the law of liberty; and where he does, he clearly speaks of the words of Messiah to his talmidim when they asked him to teach them how to pray:

James 1:21-25 KJV
21. Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24. For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:8-13 KJV
8. If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9. But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

This is clearly the law of liberty according to James: He who shows no mercy shall have judgment without mercy; but mercy shall triumph-rejoice against judgment. This is exactly what Yeshua is teaching his talmidim when they ask him how to pray:

Matthew 6:9-15 KJV
9. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11. Give us this day our daily bread.
12. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

This is the law of liberty of which James speaks, for if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will forgive you: but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your heavenly Father forgive you. PERIOD. There is nothing to be added to this if you are a disciple of Yeshua. It says what it says. Yeshua also speaks of this same teaching again with a full parable:

Matthew 18:21-35 KJV
21. Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22. Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33. Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34. And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

There is no escaping the meaning and intent of this parable. In addition Messiah Yeshua is the Memra-Logos-Word: and in the time when these things were spoken there was no "new testament" but only the TaNaK. Therefore your doctrine renders Messiah the Word entirely inoperative because the Son is the Word of the Father and that certainly begins with Torah.

Luke 1:67-75 KJV
67. And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68. Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69. And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70. As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71. That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72. To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73. The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74. That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75. In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

I have no reason to fear wading deep into the pure waters of Torah so long as I forgive others their debts and trespasses against me. My reasoning is not to obey Torah for righteousness but to be pleasing to my heavenly Father and walk in the Way in which He has prescribed for me through His holy Word as viewed through the "lenses" of the Testimony of Yeshua given him from the Father above without measure, (which Testimony Yeshua paid for with his own blood to cleanse us). Torah is Spirit and only understood through the Testimony of Yeshua. You and your teacher actually have no legitimate reason to "render Torah inoperative" as you say. Hope you do not still have me on ignore, ehem, brother. :)
Click to expand...

Not that I disagree in principle, but I would interject a caveat into the drama Romans 9:16-21. It maybe legal for the Potter to do this , but it isn't moral unless this whole thing is a cosmic play where we all take a bow at the end, And the Potter forgives the actions of those He programmed to dishonor, Romans 11:32 does leave the Potter a grand escape clause for making naughty pots full of old wine.
 
T

Truster

New member
Zeke said:
Not that I disagree in principle, but I would interject a caveat into the drama Romans 9:16-21. It maybe legal for the Potter to do this , but it isn't moral unless this whole thing is a cosmic play where we all take a bow at the end, And the Potter forgives the actions of those He programmed to dishonor, Romans 11:32 does leave the Potter a grand escape clause for making naughty pots full of old wine.
Click to expand...

You profane Divine wisdom and sovereignty.
 
jamie

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
The Law of Liberty is a perfect law. (James 1:25)

And perfect is good enough for me.
 
Zeke

Zeke

Well-known member
Truster said:
You profane Divine wisdom and sovereignty.
Click to expand...

I will take that as a compliment, Sorry if I hurt you're carnal gods ego, and feelings, but someone has to do it, you sure as heck are to smitten to confront that phony god you have built from "feelings".

Someday you will reach the Emerald City and see what a smoke and mirror con job you're god is, go within grasshopper.
 
D

daqq

Well-known member
Zeke said:
Not that I disagree in principle, but I would interject a caveat into the drama Romans 9:16-21. It maybe legal for the Potter to do this , but it isn't moral unless this whole thing is a cosmic play where we all take a bow at the end, And the Potter forgives the actions of those He programmed to dishonor, Romans 11:32 does leave the Potter a grand escape clause for making naughty pots full of old wine.
Click to expand...

Every man is a lump of clay: from the selfsame lump of clay the Potter has decided to form two vessels, (vessels of spirit). One vessel of spirit is fitted and set for destruction, (the "old man" Esau man who goes into perdition in the End) and the other vessel is fitted and set unto honor, (that one shall receive a white stone of approval, with a new name having been written therein, which no man knows but he himself). Therefore it is wise for one to do as the Master says and destroy his own soul so as to find her, (Matthew 16:24, 25, 26). One must part himself asunder, and render unto Caesar the things of Caesar, and render unto Elohim the things of Elohim, (for Yeshua knew what was in man). :)
 
Zeke

Zeke

Well-known member
daqq said:
Every man is a lump of clay: from the selfsame lump of clay the Potter has decided to form two vessels, (vessels of spirit). One vessel of spirit is fitted and set for destruction, (the "old man" Esau man who goes into perdition in the End) and the other vessel is fitted and set unto honor, (that one shall receive a white stone of approval, with a new name having been written therein, which no man knows but he himself). Therefore it is wise for one to do as the Master says and destroy his own soul so as to find her, (Matthew 16:24, 25, 26). One must part himself asunder, and render unto Caesar the things of Caesar, and render unto Elohim the things of Elohim, (for Yeshua knew what was in man). :)
Click to expand...

True, good response and goes along with Galatians 4:24-28, which brings these two back together in peace according to Genesis 33:4. 27:40, Ephesians 2:15-16.
 
D

daqq

Well-known member
intojoy said:
Don't worry about it
Click to expand...

Why would I worry about knowing letters when Yeshua clearly knows letters, (John 7:15-17)? Anyone who desires to do the will of the Father shall understand the doctrine. If I understand Torah through the light of the Testimony of Yeshua then Torah has become a rod of iron in my hand, and I am no more "under the law" but rather use it lawfully as a weapon against my own self, to cut off evil from myself and the evil "members" of my own "household". I have therefore allowed the law to slay me so that I might live in Messiah to the glory of the Father. I, by way of (dia-through) the law, have died by law so that I might live unto Elohim, (Galatians 2:19). This may sound boastful to you, and yes, I speak foolishly in speaking of myself; but you forced me to it, and so that the truth may be spoken as I understand it from both Messiah Yeshua, and Paul, therefore I speak herein as I do. :chuckle:
 
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Totton Linnet

Totton Linnet

New member
Silver Subscriber
Zeke said:
Not that I disagree in principle, but I would interject a caveat into the drama Romans 9:16-21. It maybe legal for the Potter to do this , but it isn't moral unless this whole thing is a cosmic play where we all take a bow at the end, And the Potter forgives the actions of those He programmed to dishonor, Romans 11:32 does leave the Potter a grand escape clause for making naughty pots full of old wine.
Click to expand...

I would also remind him that if he fails in one of these laws he has failed in the whole.
 
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