ECT Let No Man Take Thy Crown

[nikolai_42]

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Revelation 3:11

Is this crown different from the crown of Life Christ spoke of to a church just previously :

Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Revelation 2:10

Interestingly, James uses the exact same terminology :

Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
James 1:12

Paul speaks of a crown of righteousness :

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
2 Timothy 4:8

And that crown is spoken of as being for all believers - given by the righteous judge...and it seems to be the fulfillment of what he told the Corinthian church he persevered for :

Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
I Corinthians 9:24-25

So what is this crown? All the same? Different? Different emphases of the same thing?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Revelation 3:11

Is this crown different from the crown of Life Christ spoke of to a church just previously

I think that the crown is in regard to the "crowns of gold" referred to at Revelation 4:4 and is about the rewards mentioned at 1 Corinthians 3:14.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Being given a worthless hat made of gold is not much of a reward.
The crowns represent the privileges and responsibilities that we will be granted in the resurrection.

Matthew 25:21 21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.​

 

[nikolai_42]

I think that the crown is in regard to the "crowns of gold" referred to at Revelation 4:4 and is about the rewards mentioned at 1 Corinthians 3:14.

Reason seems to say that the crowns the Lord was talking about in Revelation 2 and 3 would be those pertaining to rewards, authority etc..., but at the same time the word in Rev 3:11 is singular. If there are multiple rewards and multiple kinds of crowns, why would Jesus speak of only one crown? Paul's use of crown seems pretty clearly one that is essential since it is given to all those that love His appearing. And James calls it the crown that is given to all that love Him.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Hebrews 9:27-28

If someone doesn't love His appearing, will they receive eternal life?

 

[nikolai_42]

Being given a worthless hat made of gold is not much of a reward.
The crowns represent the privileges and responsibilities that we will be granted in the resurrection.

Matthew 25:21 21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.​

I have no argument about the metaphorical nature of the crown. I guess part of the question does go to just how metaphorical it is. When Paul and James speak of a crown of righteousness, it is representative of (I would think) the believer's kingship with Christ. So, yes. It definitely has implications of authority. And when the elders cast their crowns before God in Revelation 4, it would be absurd to think they are throwing away their salvation. So I certainly understand the difficulty with this question (lest anyone think I have a response all prepared - it just doesn't seem so pat as my appear with a rather typical reading). But reckoning with the fundamental nature of the crowns in Paul and James makes me question how clear it is that the crowns of Revelation are what might be termed "add-ons" to salvation. In part, I wonder if the modern Evangelical view (or just my view) of salvation is too compartmentalized as opposed to what scripture teaches. By that I mean, is it really right to talk about salvation as foundational and rewards, authority etc...as isolated in great measure.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I have no argument about the metaphorical nature of the crown. I guess part of the question does go to just how metaphorical it is. When Paul and James speak of a crown of righteousness, it is representative of (I would think) the believer's kingship with Christ. So, yes. It definitely has implications of authority. And when the elders cast their crowns before God in Revelation 4, it would be absurd to think they are throwing away their salvation. So I certainly understand the difficulty with this question (lest anyone think I have a response all prepared - it just doesn't seem so pat as my appear with a rather typical reading). But reckoning with the fundamental nature of the crowns in Paul and James makes me question how clear it is that the crowns of Revelation are what might be termed "add-ons" to salvation. In part, I wonder if the modern Evangelical view (or just my view) of salvation is too compartmentalized as opposed to what scripture teaches. By that I mean, is it really right to talk about salvation as foundational and rewards, authority etc...as isolated in great measure.

Is the crown mentioned a metaphorical reference to the worship mentioned in the same letter?

Revelation 3:7-11 7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.​

 

[nikolai_42]

Is the crown mentioned a metaphorical reference to the worship mentioned in the same letter?

Revelation 3:7-11 7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.​

I would be hesitant to make that connection -- at least not directly. For them to worship followers of the Lord would not be something I would think would be countenanced by God. So I see it only as a reference to the Lord essentially saying to those that rejected Christ : "See - these whom you rejected, I love because they loved the truth.". In that sense, if they lose that crown, I would be constrained to say it's because they are no longer followers of Christ. Sever that (direct) connection, and you are no longer so constrained. So I would probably have some trouble with that. It might be true in a general sense (as governing the theme of Jesus' judgment of the Philadelphian church) but I couldn't make it anything more than a thematic link.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I would be hesitant to make that connection -- at least not directly. For them to worship followers of the Lord would not be something I would think would be countenanced by God.

You reject it because you have notions about worship that are different than what the writers of the Bible had.

 

[nikolai_42]

You reject it because you have notions about worship that are different than what the writers of the Bible had.

And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Revelation 19:9-10

And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Revelation 22:8-9

 

[genuineoriginal]

And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Revelation 19:9-10

And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Revelation 22:8-9

See if you can identify the significant difference in the verses you quoted and the verse I quoted.

Revelation 3:9 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.​

 

[nikolai_42]

See if you can identify the significant difference in the verses you quoted and the verse I quoted.

Revelation 3:9 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.​

I don't see why it matters. It seems to me that one (maybe two) of four things is true :

1. These who are of the synagogue of Satan will not worship God and so God will make them worship those who are "true Jews" as showing them to be faithful.

2. Those who are of the synagogue of Satan will not worship God and so God will force them into idolatry - worshiping His followers rather than Him - as judgment.

3. Those who are of the synagogue of Satan will come and worship those of the church of Philadelphia because they can't bring themselves to worship God as He has revealed Himself through Jesus Christ.

4. God - not countenancing idolatry in anyone - will make them come and worship Him in the presence of those whom He loves.

The first two are very similar and could be both true at the same time. But as with #4, it has God using a lie without making the truth apparent. They may be wrong as those of the synagogue of Satan, but for God to make them worship those they are against without worshiping Him whom they serve neither reinforces the evil of their Satanic worship nor points them to the true worship. The 4th option has the added complication that it doesn't necessarily entail them being made to worship at the feet of the believers.

I could see God giving them over to their idolatry, but to change the object of their idolatry to those whom they are at odds with - without pointing them to God Himself - just violates the injunction against idolatry. Even the wrath of man shall praise Him - the remainder of wrath He will restrain.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I don't see why it matters. It seems to me that one (maybe two) of four things is true :

1. These who are of the synagogue of Satan will not worship God and so God will make them worship those who are "true Jews" as showing them to be faithful.

2. Those who are of the synagogue of Satan will not worship God and so God will force them into idolatry - worshiping His followers rather than Him - as judgment.

3. Those who are of the synagogue of Satan will come and worship those of the church of Philadelphia because they can't bring themselves to worship God as He has revealed Himself through Jesus Christ.

4. God - not countenancing idolatry in anyone - will make them come and worship Him in the presence of those whom He loves.

The first two are very similar and could be both true at the same time. But as with #4, it has God using a lie without making the truth apparent. They may be wrong as those of the synagogue of Satan, but for God to make them worship those they are against without worshiping Him whom they serve neither reinforces the evil of their Satanic worship nor points them to the true worship. The 4th option has the added complication that it doesn't necessarily entail them being made to worship at the feet of the believers.

I could see God giving them over to their idolatry, but to change the object of their idolatry to those whom they are at odds with - without pointing them to God Himself - just violates the injunction against idolatry. Even the wrath of man shall praise Him - the remainder of wrath He will restrain.

Like I stated earlier:
You reject it because you have notions about worship that are different than what the writers of the Bible had.

Your conclusions are mistaken due to your belief that worship of anyone other than God is idolatry.

Here is the word used with the definitions:
g4352 προσκυνέω proskyneō

• to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
• among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
• in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
  • used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
    • to the Jewish high priests
    • to God
    • to Christ
    • to heavenly beings
    • to demons

Since the believers will be ruling over the unbelievers during the Millenial Kingdom, the unbelievers will be bowing and kneeling before the believers that are ruling over them.
The unbelievers will not be making sacrifices and offerings to the believers, merely bowing down and kneeling before them to acknowledge the believers as ruling over them at the orders of Jesus.

 

[nikolai_42]

Like I stated earlier:
You reject it because you have notions about worship that are different than what the writers of the Bible had.

Your conclusions are mistaken due to your belief that worship of anyone other than God is idolatry.

Here is the word used with the definitions:
g4352 προσκυνέω proskyneō

• to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
• among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
• in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
  • used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
    • to the Jewish high priests
    • to God
    • to Christ
    • to heavenly beings
    • to demons

Since the believers will be ruling over the unbelievers during the Millenial Kingdom, the unbelievers will be bowing and kneeling before the believers that are ruling over them.
The unbelievers will not be making sacrifices and offerings to the believers, merely bowing down and kneeling before them to acknowledge the believers as ruling over them at the orders of Jesus.

That may be so - and I recognize that there may be valid uses - but John was still told (twice) see thou do it not. That being said, I do see a striking parallel with this and Joseph and his brothers....