Knight's POTD 9-16-2007

[Nathon Detroit]

Brilliant post by Yorzhik. :up:

I do not follow the point you are making. Where have I ever stated that God "allows [something] to happen in its own time"? What is this "event" that you are referring to?

From quotes like these (and I don't need to link to them... they're right here):

"I hold that God did not decree the fall of man."

"2. Allow man to fall into sin through his own self-determination
...
Note from the above that God is not the author of sin, whether or not Adam fell when he did or two years later."

"As I replied, it does not matter when Adam sinned, but only that Adam did sin."

The event I'm referring to is Adam's sin.

Thanks for the distinction. I would only be concerned if the causes of a choice, whether it be from antecedent or proximate causes, exist. Do these causes exist, and is God the first cause? Does God know His decretive will? Can God communicate? Can you answer questions directly?

God is the first cause, while the proximate cause of the actions of His creatures are His creatures self-determined wills. God knows His will, comprising decretive and preceptive aspects. God communicates analogically (and not exhaustively) through His special revelation, the Scriptures.

Whatever antecedent or proximate causes occur, God is the first cause of both types. Do you agree?

God knowing His preceptive will does not matter in the context of this discussion, only if God knows His decretive will which you admit He does.

And you also admit that God can communicate. We have not only God's communication from the bible, but we have in the bible examples of God talking to whoever He wants about whatever He wants.

I read the post to Mighty Duck and it doesn't have anything to do with this quote, or, for that matter, with this discussion so far.

Yes, God is ultimately responsible, as the first cause, for all events, including Adam's self-determined choice to sin. But no matter how hard you press the matter, you won't make God the author of the proximate sinful actions of His self-determined creatures.

It is reasonable for a person who hears you say "God is ultimately responsible, as the first cause, for all events" to conclude that God determined Adam's first sin (even if it was determined within God's decretive will). But then you say Adam determined the event (and, in fact, you say ONLY ADAM determined the event). So you would have to admit that a reasonable person has cause to question whether this is a contradiction.

And in the context of that reasonable conclusion when they hear you say " But no matter how hard you press the matter, you won't make God the author of the proximate sinful actions of His self-determined creatures." you must admit it sounds like you are saying "it's turtles all the way down".

Just an acknowledgement that:
1. God is the first cause
2. If there is an event outside of God's provincial control, then at least some events after it may no longer be in God's provincial control.

This would be true if these premises were factual. They are not. But I will go along with you to see where you are headed.

So you don't agree that God is the first cause? Or you don't agree that if one event is outside of one's control, then events following that uncontrolled event may also be outside of one's control?

God is the first cause of all things. There are no events outside of God's providential control, so I do not agree that an "uncontrolled event" exists.

You are agreeing with both premises. Do I have to spell this out for you, or can you see it just by reading the above four quotes?

"If Adam had sinned at some other time", then at the time he was foreseen to sin that wasn't some other time... he would have been doing something else. So, to say that "the actions are foreseen because the actions are certain to take place." could not also be true.

You misunderstand. Adam's actions, no matter when they take place are foreseen, for the fact that they are foreseen means they took place, whenever in fact they did take place. You are trying to cast an absurd scenario that is impossible. "If Adam sinned at some other time" is irrelevant, for no matter when Adam sinned, God foresaw the time and place and circumstances. How else could God have foreseen? You cannot divorce the two by making Adam into a free radical in the universe.

No, I didn't misunderstand. You said "If Adam had sinned at some other time, there would be no absurdity" and I pointed out that "If Adam had sinned at some other time" it would be an absurdity... to which to agreed! You may not realize you agreed with me, but when you said "'If Adam sinned at some other time' is irrelevant" you removed half of the equation, nulling the absurdity. You had to. You realize that EITHER Adam is a puppet, OR "actions are foreseen because the actions are certain to take place" describes a God that can do the absurd!

Why don't you just believe "God can do the logically absurd" and this discussion will be completed.

I'll state my position clearly: if you have exhaustive foreknowledge combined in the first cause, it is equal in every way to foreordaining.

I think you are trying to say, equivalently, God foreknows because He has foreordained. To this I agree. Indeed, foreknowledge presupposes foreordination,

And if we could be even more complete, you would agree you believe: God exhaustively foreknows because God exhaustively foreordains.

So the question I would have is; if God did not decree Adam's sin, did God ordain Adam's sin?

AMR continues:

but foreknowledge is not itself foreordination.

And as I've repeated, foreknowledge combined with the first cause IS in itself foreordination.

AMR continues:

Since all these events are foreknown, they are fixed and settled. Nothing can have fixed and settled them except the good pleasure of God, freely and unchangeably foreordaining whatever comes to pass. But God’s foreordination and foreknowledge implies certainty, for what God decides to happen will happen and, as a consequence, God certainly knows what He has decided.

Above, you said that Adam's sin was "self determined". I hope you realize that "deciding" and "determining" can be used interchangeably. And that being said, can you give a reason beyond proof passages that explain this contradiction (the one where God decides Adam's sin and Adam's sin is self-determined)? If you said "God can do the logically absurd", that would suffice.

(remaining ad hominem deleted - please recast in the form of a question or cogent assertion)

That doesn't look like an ad hominem to me, but I'll recast.

I would also say that if God cannot have a new thought, then He is obviously, Himself, a part of the watch made by the Divine Watchmaker UNLESS God can do the logically absurd. And it's OKAY for you to believe that, just don't insist that people that believe the OV don't have legitimate concerns that the SV is wrong. Rather, you can say, "thanks brother for your concerns, I see now that my view of the nature of God, something that is foundational to all that I teach, has some valid questions with implications that I might be wrong."

:first:

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